Is S&W retarded?

[drgrant]

-You forget 4 which is that nothing happens and the gun and ltc rot in the closet, drawer, whatever. You're being way too rational, assuming that people care, pay attention, etc.

Those numbers are also partial garbage given the loping renewal cycles, issuing authorities dragging ass, etc. You'd have to normalize them to make them useful.

-Need- to be sold surrendered/destroyed? See bullet point 1 again. Read it over and over until it sinks in.

 

[meh]

yep, me also. but i do like the m&p 9c. i like that compact over any of the competitors latest and greatest offerings. best of all you can get one cheap...or you could before the insanity. i picked up a 9c in a shop for 299+tax otd with 6 mags with the pinky extenders. i also wanted a 357 sig compact to play with, couldn't find one so i bought a 40 and the extra barrel for not much more money. get a decent trigger on one and you got a s&w sleeper of the decade...my opinion.

I like the one I have just fine after I had it Apex'd. I only have two complaints. First, the S&W 10-round magazines are really 9.9 round magazines that you can jam a 10th round into if you try, and second, I'm not a fan of mag safeties, though that only annoys me when I want to dry fire the gun after clearing it.

 

[Grendizer138]

I believe possession of a weapon without a valid FID/LTC in Massachusetts is a criminal offense


There is a hard stop at 5 year period that will trigger surrender/destruction/sale of firearms due to the expiration of the LTC. Based on historical data of licenses (re)issued in MA, as published on mass.gov, there is indeed a 20-30% drop in license (re)issues 5 years after a major event(ex. 9/11, Sandyhook, etc). That means 30-40% will need to get rid of their guns. If those folks bought just one gun, there is going to be tens of thousands of guns to surrender/destroy/sell.

 

[AHM]

I think they're retarded for not leaving Massachusetts.

(Wonder if there's some idled manufacturing complex
on the NH side of the Connecticut River that's been maintained
in move-in shape for a large gun manufacturer.
Rail and interstate access, a state government
that just might not kill the goose that laid the golden egg...
...what's not to like?).

... imagine you're a reluctant gun owner in the year 2025 who has gone out and spent $500 on a gun in 2020. You are facing a $100 renewal fee and continued concern over someone stealing your gun and using it in a crime or you have a child and worry that they may get their hands on your gun when you're not home. These are stressful thoughts! Now imagine, the person sees that the same gun as theirs is getting sold for $700 on a used gun market. that's a $200 increase from what they paid. Add the renewal fee and one is looking at a $300 they could have if they sold the gun and did not renew.

That's a description of someone so 'whipped that Marsha lives rent-free in their heads.

They have no view of used gun market pricing,
and probably think they can only legally sell their gun
if they obtain an FFL dealer license and a RFID implant.

 

[40 Creedmoor fan]

That's a description of someone so 'whipped that Marsha lives rent-free in their heads.

They have no view of used gun market pricing,
and probably think they can only legally sell their gun
if they obtain an FFL dealer license and a RFID implant.

Probably. Nevertheless, that's who's been applying lately...

 

[Waher]

I believe possession of a weapon without a valid FID/LTC in Massachusetts is a criminal offense


There is a hard stop at 5 year period that will trigger surrender/destruction/sale of firearms due to the expiration of the LTC. Based on historical data of licenses (re)issued in MA, as published on mass.gov, there is indeed a 20-30% drop in license (re)issues 5 years after a major event(ex. 9/11, Sandyhook, etc). That means 30-40% will need to get rid of their guns. If those folks bought just one gun, there is going to be tens of thousands of guns to surrender/destroy/sell.

Without a a valid FID/LTC depends. If you never had one yes, if you have one that is expired it's a civil offense with a fine. And both instances are only if one gets caught in possession, which doesn't happen unless one does something or has something happen to have the law coming into their life.

The drop in licenses is a large number of people saying "F-CK YOU AND YOUR RULES" and continuing to possess firearms without paying the King to rent their rights back. Post 1998 there's a significant number of people that buy their ammo out of state (or already have a lifetime worth of ammo stockpiled for their annual rate of use) and flip the commonwealth the bird to continue possessing what they or their family's already owned.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

I believe possession of a weapon without a valid FID/LTC in Massachusetts is a criminal offense

Your belief does not coincide with reality. You're probably new at this and trying to use logic and common sense to fill in the blanks. It does not work that way, at least in MA.

Possession/carry on an expired license is civil, not criminal, provided that:

1. The person has not been denied for a renewal of the expired LTC
2. The person has not become ineligible for an LTC (disqualifying offense rendering statutory ineligibility; denouncement for political incorrectness does not count)
3. The person's LTC has not been revoked for any reason other than failure to file a change of address

MGL Ch 140 Sec 131(m)

There is a hard stop at 5 year period that will trigger surrender/destruction/sale of firearms due to the expiration of the LTC.

You are piling on further evidence of your lack of knowledge. Please get up to speed before you start to mislead people.

The LTC is valid for 6 years, not 5 (actually, "up to 6 years, expiring on your birthday"), and none of the actions you describe generally happen - and it is rare to non-existent for a PD to come looking because an LTC expired.

No, it's not, if you have an expired LTC its basically a stay out of jail card. A lot of people do not know this.

There are interesting nuances to this:

• This is not a one-time thing, and you can use the protection over and over again (though the courts can up the fine to an inconvenient amount)
• Unlike a current valid LTC, I don't think the local PD can suspend or revoke an expired LTC. Consider the implications of that.

 

[drgrant]

View attachment 462377

Nah, I think its just a (relatively) mild case of dunning-kruger.

 

[40 Creedmoor fan]

You are piling on further evidence of your lack of knowledge. Please get up to speed before you start to mislead people.

Some of these answers remind me of playground arguments when I was five. "You're a bugger" is a good argument for a 5 yo. Meanwhile...

The LTC is valid for 6 years, not 5 (actually, "up to 6 years, expiring on your birthday"), and none of the actions you describe generally happen - and it is rare to non-existent for a PD to come looking because an LTC expired.

You are making a poor assumption that ALL people renew on the last day of the year. Fact is, annual numbers is a cumulative number throughout the year. It is logical to assume that there will be a continuous rolling expiration starting 5 years from the year comparing to. For example, if looking at 2012, the LTC will begin expiring on January 1st of 2017, thus starting contributing to 2017 numbers, as opposed to 2018 numbers, your "6-year" logic presumes.

Also, you fail to note that it was someone else who attempted to "Waffen SS" police coming for your guns as LTC expires, yet you attribute it to me, even though I EXPLICITLY refuted the same argument above.

Sheesh, there is no winning with some of you. You are indeed a bunch of mean closet cases who use this forum to re-create the 21st-century version of "Grumpy Old Men".

Во истину, этот форум полон старых пердунов...

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Some of these answers remind me of playground arguments when I was five. "You're a bugger" is a good argument for a 5 yo. Meanwhile...


You are making a poor assumption that ALL people renew on the last day of the year. Fact is, annual numbers is a cumulative number throughout the year. It is logical to assume that there will be a continuous rolling expiration starting 5 years from the year comparing to. For example, if looking at 2012, the LTC will begin expiring on January 1st of 2017, thus starting contributing to 2017 numbers, as opposed to 2018 numbers, your "6-year" logic presumes.

Also, you fail to note that it was someone else who attempted to "Waffen SS" police coming for your guns as LTC expires, yet you attribute it to me, even though I EXPLICITLY refuted the same argument above.

Sheesh, there is no winning with some of you. You are indeed a bunch of mean closet cases who use this forum to re-create the 21st-century version of "Grumpy Old Men".

Во истину, этот форум полон старых пердунов...

It would be best to stick to the facts and, when possible, cite a source [MGL, Court Decision, info printed on LTC, etc.]

As to 5 vs 6 years - Are you aware that when you renew a month or so ahead of your brithday, that many PD's date the start of the new license the day after your upcoming birthday so you new LTC becomes effective the day your old one expires? I just checked my LTC and it was issued effective the day after my birthday - and I assure you, that is not the anniversary of the date I went in to renew.

An LTC Issued on 1/1/2017 would be valid until 12/31/22. If the holder applied for a renewal in 11/2022 the new LTC would, in most cases, be dated starting 1/1/23. The year does not matter - we are dealing with a rolling year long window of time, not a calendar year.

Sorry about the PD visit misattribution, correction gladly accepted.

Not "grumpy old men" but sticklers for accuracy. The state has been known to charge for non-crimes, and general purpose attorneys have been known to not understand gun law, so someone who actually thought carry on an expired LTC was criminal, not civil, might accept a plea deal rather than civil disposition. This would never happen with a specialist attorney like Langer, Guida, etc.

Other than my misattribution of your quote, and the 5/6 year thing which I addressed - is there anything else I have said you consider to be factually inaccurate or incorrect? If you think so, speak up and we can both research definitive sources until we converge on the correct answer. What matters is what the accurate info is, not who said it or who was initially mistaken.

 

[40 Creedmoor fan]

It would be best to stick to the facts and, when possible, cite a source [MGL, Court Decision, info printed on LTC, etc.]

As to 5 vs 6 years - Are you aware that when you renew a month or so ahead of your brithday, that many PD's date the start of the new license the day after your upcoming birthday so you new LTC becomes effective the day your old one expires? I just checked my LTC and it was issued effective the day after my birthday - and I assure you, that is not the anniversary of the date I went in to renew.

An LTC Issued on 1/1/2017 would be valid until 12/31/22. If the holder applied for a renewal in 11/2022 the new LTC would, in most cases, be dated starting 1/1/23. The year does not matter - we are dealing with a rolling year long window of time, not a calendar year.

Sorry about the PD visit misattribution, correction gladly accepted.

Not "grumpy old men" but sticklers for accuracy. The state has been known to charge for non-crimes, and general purpose attorneys have been known to not understand gun law, so someone who actually thought carry on an expired LTC was criminal, not civil, might accept a plea deal rather than civil disposition. This would never happen with a specialist attorney like Langer, Guida, etc.

Other than my misattribution of your quote, and the 5/6 year thing which I addressed - is there anything else I have said you consider to be factually inaccurate or incorrect? If you think so, speak up and we can both research definitive sources until we converge on the correct answer. What matters is what the accurate info is, not who said it or who was initially mistaken.

Thank you. This is a perfect example of arguing the point, not the individual. I would rather be proven wrong on point than having to defend my person.

That said, your points are indeed valid and are clarifying but still do not disprove the original claim that the record-setting wave of the new LTCs in 2020 will contribute to the used gun market once LTC's begin to expire in Massachusetts.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

That said, your points are indeed valid and are clarifying but still do not disprove the original claim that the record-setting wave of the new LTCs in 2020 will contribute to the used gun market once LTC's begin to expire in Massachusetts.

On this we agree - it is only a matter of degree.

 

[Koolmoose]

Something that hasn’t been mentioned about the decrease number of renewals 5 or six years out is the death of the LTC holder. In those cases where do the guns go? I’d wager, although some are turned in and some are sold,many disappear into the “either”.

 

[Parker Schreiber]

Something that hasn’t been mentioned about the decrease number of renewals 5 or six years out is the death of the LTC holder. In those cases where do the guns go? I’d wager, although some are turned in and some are sold,many disappear into the “either”.

Two words -- "gun trust." If you haven't set one up, think very hard about doing so. Today, ideally. If you own any legal NFA items and don't have a gun trust, you are doing your loved owns a grave disservice. Even for non-NFA weapons it makes everyone's life a lot easier.

Without a trust, for non-NFA items, If both the decedent and the beneficiary are licensed it's as straightforward as a private sale. In fact, the Mass Gun Transaction Portal has a workflow just for that purpose:

https://mircs.chs.state.ma.us/fa10/action/inheritance?app_context=inheritance&app_action=presentInitInheritance&page=1&bod=1617107288541

If no licensed beneficiary claims the gun and there's enough of an estate to worry about, the executor will typically arrange for an FFL dealer either to buy the guns outright or hold them while a beneficiary works to obtain a license. As a percentage, my guess is that the number of formerly licensed "disappearing" guns is fairly low, because unless the executor wants an off the books gun for themselves, they are taking on the risk and someone else is reaping the rewards.

 

[Rockrivr1]

My big concern with doing a trust is how easy is it to add/remove inventory in the trust. If your still active buying and selling that could mean a lot of money changing the trust every time as my understanding is you need to be specific on each firearm in the trust.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

My big concern with doing a trust is how easy is it to add/remove inventory in the trust. If your still active buying and selling that could mean a lot of money changing the trust every time as my understanding is you need to be specific on each firearm in the trust.

Not the way it's done.

You Form 1 / Form 4 using the transferee/manufacturer as the name of the trust (You may also need to mention trust creation date..sort of like mentioning your birthdate when dealing with the medical system). What can cost $$ to chance if using an attorney is the trustees. Similarly, I just bought a bug out place (a place to bug out when the Wife needs to find peace, relaxation, and the ocean) and bought it the name of my family probate bypass trust - I did not have to do anything to the trust itself.

 

[allen-1]

My big concern with doing a trust is how easy is it to add/remove inventory in the trust. If your still active buying and selling that could mean a lot of money changing the trust every time as my understanding is you need to be specific on each firearm in the trust.

Assault Weapons Ban Of 2021

Which gun sales? Most of these folks, especially women, are purchasing one handgun or one shotgun for defensive use. Like their FUDD counterparts, they focus on a single issue. I have actually heard some people at trap and skeet ranges say that they would be OK with an AWB, that it happened...

www.northeastshooters.com

 

[kalash]

Во истину, этот форум полон старых пердунов...

А можно не грубить? Я довольно молодой!

 

[PCK9]

Not a fan of the Shields but I do like The M&P compacts & Full size.

 

[40 Creedmoor fan]

А можно не грубить? Я довольно молодой!

Yes, sir! You are!

Not a fan of the Shields but I do like The M&P compacts & Full size.

Personally, I am yet to find an S&W pistol with a trigger that didn't suck. Well, except for Model 41 but that's a completely different animal. Revolvers are a different animal too.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

A big advantage of the trust is denouncement protection or anticipation thereof. You don;\'t need to wait for federal approval to transfer the NFA weapon to a fellow trustee.

 

[Fleshwound]

Hmmm.

I bet you could get $400 for it in the classifieds. Throw in an Uncle Mikes Holster, a box of ammo, and call it a carry package. $525

Those bastards. Not only are they making shitty semi's, they are almost doubling their money too!
( 50% margin = 100% mark up)
So for every hundred bucks a distributor spends on an S&W, $42.60 is gross profit. That is pretty impressive.

I don't know what everyone is complaining about with the S&W M&P? I was a P series Sig guy for 20+ years. Lost my job, had to sell my Sigs. I bought M&P's to fill the void. I carried the 9mm 1st Shield, never failed me, shot very accurately, a 380 bodyguard, never failed me, shot accurately for a mouse gun. I have owned every model of the first series M&P's, never once did they fail me. Worth every penny. So now, I'm back to the Sigs, no regrets on the M&P's. Oh yea, owned the G21, three G19's, a G17, and a G30. They work, but not a fan of their accuracy.

 

[92G]

I’ve owned several M&P pistols over the years and all were awkward but incredibly reliable. sold them all except for the shield 45 and I neither like the shield nor 45acp but that pistol is just too perfect to sell. My S&W victory 22 is the most reliable 22lr pistol I’ve ever owned. It runs all ammo types, unsuppressed, suppressed, cold weather, clean, fouled, etc it doesn’t matter. I’m convinced the reliability is due to the magazine design, which is smoother than any other rimfire mag I’ve seen. The SW22 victory is an underappreciated rimfire pistol.

their M&P centerfire rifles are inexcusably behind the market and overpriced.

can’t really compare S&W’s current production firearms to their historical ones without crying. Apples and oranges.

 

[drgrant]

I don't know what everyone is complaining about with the S&W M&P? I was a P series Sig guy for 20+ years. Lost my job, had to sell my Sigs. I bought M&P's to fill the void. I carried the 9mm 1st Shield, never failed me, shot very accurately, a 380 bodyguard, never failed me, shot accurately for a mouse gun. I have owned every model of the first series M&P's, never once did they fail me. Worth every penny. So now, I'm back to the Sigs, no regrets on the M&P's. Oh yea, owned the G21, three G19's, a G17, and a G30. They work, but not a fan of their accuracy.

Because S&Ws quality control sucks.

If they were that great whyd you go back to sigs?

The BG380? thats probablly the worst piece of shit they make, or one of them. That's even unfair to the M&P series to like, lump that POS
in there.

Honestly though if I was forced to carry a 2.0 or even a shield I'd cope with it and itd be fine.

But the fact that there are fire control parts captivated by the rear sights? Bleeeech. Vomit.

 

[Mesatchornug]

But the fact that there are fire control parts captivated by the rear sights? Bleeeech. Vomit.

Honest question: why does that bother you? I've got guesses, but would love to hear from you

 

[mousegunfan]

Smith and Wesson is stupid with how they continue to put 10+ pound triggers in guns sold in mass even if the gun has a safety. No other company even bothers with the 10 pound trigger anymore.

 

[Fleshwound]

Because S&Ws quality control sucks.

If they were that great whyd you go back to sigs?

The BG380? thats probablly the worst piece of shit they make, or one of them. That's even unfair to the M&P series to like, lump that POS
in there.

Honestly though if I was forced to carry a 2.0 or even a shield I'd cope with it and itd be fine.

But the fact that there are fire control parts captivated by the rear sights? Bleeeech. Vomit.

I like sigs more. S&W pistols never gave me trouble. Period

 

[drgrant]

Smith and Wesson is stupid with how they continue to put 10+ pound triggers in guns sold in mass even if the gun has a safety. No other company even bothers with the 10 pound trigger anymore.

As shitty as that is there's a long institutional fear in S&Ws legal department over that.

To put it bluntly the AGs office has a murder boner over S&W and Glock striker guns vs everything else.

I remember when a few dealers tried to sell M&P .45 with the safety lever minus the rest of the gayness, that didnt last long before they got
clapped, etc. Granted this is ancient history but lets put it this way, "people did that before" etc.

There's no reason to care about any of this shit anyways, anyone that pays attention can drive around it easily regardless.

 

[drgrant]

Honest question: why does that bother you? I've got guesses, but would love to hear from you

Because removing a rear sight to work on fire control parts is stupid. It's a thing that you want to set once and never move it again. It's another thing you have to fix or could screw up when putting the gun back together. It makes working on the gun a pain in the ass. It's like having a car where you have to remove the radiator to change the oil. This is worse though, in a way.

I can't think of another major manufacturer that does this. HK, Glock, Sig.... none of them seem to do this.

 

[Broc]

Smith and Wesson is stupid with how they continue to put 10+ pound triggers in guns sold in mass even if the gun has a safety. No other company even bothers with the 10 pound trigger anymore.

PRO TIP: Order online and skip sales tax + get the lighter trigger everyone says they sell in other States.

PRO TIP #2: Don't buy SW.