Is anyone starting to think all these closings are going a bit too far?

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On the one hand, because of the way the virus spreads, most of it is pretty necessary if you want to contain the virus. On the other hand, Darwin getting involved and doing away with a decent portion of the population might be a good thing if you want to see cheap real estate and people selling Grandpa's guns.

On the other hand Darwin might get you and yours, and it'll be your guns being sold.
 

namedpipes

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Yes and No

Prior to hillary clintons failed attempt in the 90's to nationalize health care and subsequent imposition of "manage care" on hospitalls. Md's. Formularies etc to impose "LEAN" or "Just In Time" principals, Hospitals, Md's Forumlaries etc kept much much much larger stocks of all sorts of thing on hand

Cost of healthcare has exploded in last couple decades largely due to increase in "administration" and "compliance"....dont get me started on costs associated with "Insurance"
Your points are valid on their own merits. JIT is bloody stupid in some areas and costs are insane. There are serious problems in our HC system.

But maintaining 40,000 bed hospitals on the off chance that there "could" be a pandemic... that simply would and should never happen. And that's what it would take. (or more), to be prepared to deal with something like "this".

And then there's the Prepper's nightmare of WHICH type of disaster to prepare for. Solar flare? Pole reversal? Meteor?

I would agree that FEMA and similar state agencies ought to have stockpiled appropriate PPE, food, fuel, etc and perhaps even "tent" field hospitals with a variety of medical equipment, but the hospitals and clinics are primary there to treat individuals, not pandemic victims.
 

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My conspiracy theory is they say it's elderly and immune compromised, but they're just saying that to prevent more panic. What the people in the government know is it's really more like the Spanish flu. 1 in 3 people die and it doesn't matter if you're healthy as a horse you can still die.
92% of NYC victims had underlying conditions. Of course it's NYC so being an a**h*** could be an underlying condition.
 
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Maybe we are doing it wrong and herd immunity is/was the way to go, and just treat the ones with risk factors the best you could.
 

jpk

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Your points are valid on their own merits. JIT is bloody stupid in some areas and costs are insane. There are serious problems in our HC system.

But maintaining 40,000 bed hospitals on the off chance that there "could" be a pandemic... that simply would and should never happen. And that's what it would take. (or more), to be prepared to deal with something like "this".

And then there's the Prepper's nightmare of WHICH type of disaster to prepare for. Solar flare? Pole reversal? Meteor?

I would agree that FEMA and similar state agencies ought to have stockpiled appropriate PPE, food, fuel, etc and perhaps even "tent" field hospitals with a variety of medical equipment, but the hospitals and clinics are primary there to treat individuals, not pandemic victims.
Of COURSE its possible to maintain a lot more overflow

Look at the $$$ thats been wasted just in the last week

Then look at the $$$ that is wasted on hospitals like DH in Hanover on that 4? story open air section of the hospital.......
 
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Of COURSE its possible to maintain a lot more overflow

Look at the $$$ thats been wasted just in the last week

Then look at the $$$ that is wasted on hospitals like DH in Hanover on that 4? story open air section of the hospital.......
I don't care what that Hospital does. All I know is that they fixed my heart (Yes, I have one) and found an aneurism in the aeortic artery and repaired that. Derek was Life flighted as well. They are one of the premier hospitals for life saving treatment.
 
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I would agree that FEMA and similar state agencies ought to have stockpiled appropriate PPE, food, fuel, etc and perhaps even "tent" field hospitals with a variety of medical equipment, but the hospitals and clinics are primary there to treat individuals, not pandemic victims.
As someone who's been 'tasked' with going through emergency response resources. It's a colossal PITA, you have to allocate a large amount of manpower to go through it. Some places have the manpower, it shut down my entire station for a week just because we don't have a lot of assets in place. Stuff like tents rot, even if you try to keep them in a dry, cool place. Rats/mice do a number on just about everything. Even if it's just biological, rodents can ruin your day. If someone forgets to run generators dry, they are useless when you need them, won't start due to various reasons. We threw away a ton of gear because it was rotted a couple years ago. I think most of us would prefer a lean federal government. Then we moved to a much smaller facility where we simply can't store anything. Government thinking at it's finest.

Conversations wife has to have with 7 year old.

View attachment 341582
I had a short to mid length conversation with my kids. They are aware of the seriousness of the situation, but honestly told them it's unlikely to be worse than the flu we dealt with last year (not lying to them, but no need to get into choking on your own bodily fluids). We are staying isolated from family to further reduce the chance of anyone of us getting it. We did some basic math and explained how 'flattening the curve' works in theory so they understand we are probably going to get it. We just don't want to get it at the same time as everyone else and flood the hospitals. My kids are 11/10/8. I have not observed any undue stress (loss of sleep, appetite, or outrageous behavior).
 

jpk

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I don't care what that Hospital does. All I know is that they fixed my heart (Yes, I have one) and found an aneurism in the aeortic artery and repaired that. Derek was Life flighted as well. They are one of the premier hospitals for life saving treatment.
I'm glad you and others have had good outcomes.

But your argument is a non sequitur

Good/Great healthcare and outcomes isnt dependent on an opulent building.

this also isnt about one facility, its about a national trend where many/most hospitals being built in the last 20 or so years are these taj mahal like structures where huge amounts of money was wasted to create a large amount of space that is unusable and/or doesnt in any way shape or form contribute to health care and/or good outcomes.

The only thing it accomplishes is to increase the bottom line which is passed on to customers/patients in the form of higher cost treatment/procedures

Higher cost procedures/treatment in turn drives the cost of health insurance higher and higher

This in turn causes health insurance companies to create more administrative BS which drives cost of health care higher and makes life a living hell for anyone that has to navigate/sort out payment (duplicate charges etc etc)

Its no wonder that 2/3ds of all bankruptcies have health care costs at the root of them

There are tons and tons of articles/studies/other about this


Health Care doesnt have to be anywhere near as expensive as it currently is.....there's massive waste/bs that drives cost thru the roof
 
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Health Care doesnt have to be anywhere near as expensive as it currently is.....there's massive waste/bs that drives cost thru the roof
Oh, You are so Right, Then again this Country has some of the best medical professionals in the world. The facilities and the pay is what draws them.
 
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jpk

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Oh, You are so Right, Then again this Country has some of the best medical professionals in the world. The facilities and the pay is what draws them.
No doubt but top people across all industries are generally speaking attracted and retained because compensation is adequate but more importantly because the quality/nature of the work.....work is interesting/valuable etc......

The cost of the "health care" aspect is driven disproportionately by administrative costs and less by costs associated with providing care.

We have much same problem in "education"......in last 40 or so years the teacher/student ration is unchanged......while at same time theres been a massive explosion in expansion of "administrators"
 

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No doubt but top people across all industries are generally speaking attracted and retained because compensation is adequate but more importantly because the quality/nature of the work.....work is interesting/valuable etc......

The cost of the "health care" aspect is driven disproportionately by administrative costs and less by costs associated with providing care.

We have much same problem in "education"......in last 40 or so years the teacher/student ration is unchanged......while at same time theres been a massive explosion in expansion of "administrators"
And a decline in the everyday intelligence and wisdom of students.
 
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namedpipes

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I'm glad you and others have had good outcomes.

But your argument is a non sequitur

Good/Great healthcare and outcomes isnt dependent on an opulent building.

this also isnt about one facility, its about a national trend where many/most hospitals being built in the last 20 or so years are these taj mahal like structures where huge amounts of money was wasted to create a large amount of space that is unusable and/or doesnt in any way shape or form contribute to health care and/or good outcomes.

The only thing it accomplishes is to increase the bottom line which is passed on to customers/patients in the form of higher cost treatment/procedures

Higher cost procedures/treatment in turn drives the cost of health insurance higher and higher

This in turn causes health insurance companies to create more administrative BS which drives cost of health care higher and makes life a living hell for anyone that has to navigate/sort out payment (duplicate charges etc etc)

Its no wonder that 2/3ds of all bankruptcies have health care costs at the root of them

There are tons and tons of articles/studies/other about this


Health Care doesnt have to be anywhere near as expensive as it currently is.....there's massive waste/bs that drives cost thru the roof
The majority of healthcare in this country is private enterprise. It frankly isn't any of your or my business how efficient they are. We have the option of not using their services if we don't want to. Unless you're suggesting that it is right and proper for the government to assert absolute control on private businesses and individuals?

I *should* have (and don't, and this IS a problem) have the option of seeking healthcare from alternative sources. I should be able to have Granny from The Beverly Hillbillies, or a witch doctor from the Congo as my PCP. The regulations placed on care givers approach insanity and do drive up costs.

Those healthcare facilities and providers that ARE government controlled (VA at a minimum, probably a good bit more), sure, you have a beef. They ought to operate efficiently for the "normal" scenario. Which still is not a pandemic.
 

jpk

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The majority of healthcare in this country is private enterprise. It frankly isn't any of your or my business how efficient they are. We have the option of not using their services if we don't want to. Unless you're suggesting that it is right and proper for the government to assert absolute control on private businesses and individuals?

I *should* have (and don't, and this IS a problem) have the option of seeking healthcare from alternative sources. I should be able to have Granny from The Beverly Hillbillies, or a witch doctor from the Congo as my PCP. The regulations placed on care givers approach insanity and do drive up costs.

Those healthcare facilities and providers that ARE government controlled (VA at a minimum, probably a good bit more), sure, you have a beef. They ought to operate efficiently for the "normal" scenario. Which still is not a pandemic.
Yes and No.....

Hospital systems get crap tons of grant money/handouts/subsidies from taxpayers from various state and federal agencies.....cdc, nih....the list is endless in totally incomprehensible....I hesitate to say this applies to ALL Hospitals but its pretty much universal that they've got their hand(s) out gobbling up as much cash as possible....some of that has conditions on it as to how/what its used for (loosely).....lots doesnt....just ends up being slush fund money

On top of that, most states have restrictions on a new hospital coming to the state.....ex....NH has some retarded rule that they have to get OK at the state level.....a cancer specialty hosp/group wanted to come NH a number a few years back and it was poo pooed by certain entities including existing hospitals cuz they dont want competition......cuz it drives down prices they can charge

On top of that there are very few independent primary care physicians out there.....majority have been bought out by the above hospital systems....they're all just employees......hospital handles all policy, hr, billing etc.......

So.....yes....almost our entire "health care" industry is "private" but subsidized by sally and joe taxpayer......who are also on the hook for high cost of health care services.....
 

jpk

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If your only concern is the guesstimate of a death rate that seems to fluctuate between .05 to 5+% then maybe.

If you're in a higher risk category, don't want to be horribly sick (the definition of a mild case states not requiring a ventilator and the is just to broad of a definition for me), don't want to spend years paying for a long hospital stay or don't want to end up with permanent lung damage then no I don't think it's too far.
I dont want to get sick and possibly die either which is why I wear mask, use sanitizer, chlorox wipes and time by visits to stores appropriately

But I also dont expect the world to stop turning just for me and others.

Know what I mean?
 

namedpipes

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As someone who's been 'tasked' with going through emergency response resources. It's a colossal PITA, you have to allocate a large amount of manpower to go through it. Some places have the manpower, it shut down my entire station for a week just because we don't have a lot of assets in place. Stuff like tents rot, even if you try to keep them in a dry, cool place. Rats/mice do a number on just about everything. Even if it's just biological, rodents can ruin your day. If someone forgets to run generators dry, they are useless when you need them, won't start due to various reasons. We threw away a ton of gear because it was rotted a couple years ago. I think most of us would prefer a lean federal government. Then we moved to a much smaller facility where we simply can't store anything. Government thinking at it's finest. ...
Groups like FEMA or our local MEMA have a reasonable onus to keep emergency supplies on hand. I don't feel too back making THEM conduct proper prepping operations.

I think you work for BP or some such, and your agency's requirements are probably a lot different. Setup a warehouse, store the stuff inside, seal it up tight and fill it with nitrogen. It'll keep the critters out and handle any two legged thieves too. [laugh] There must be a product that can be attached to a genset to start it once a week for 30 minutes. I dare you to suggest the nitrogen idea to your management team!
 
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Yes and No.....

Hospital systems get crap tons of grant money/handouts/subsidies from taxpayers from various state and federal agencies.....cdc, nih....the list is endless in totally incomprehensible....I hesitate to say this applies to ALL Hospitals but its pretty much universal that they've got their hand(s) out gobbling up as much cash as possible....some of that has conditions on it as to how/what its used for (loosely).....lots doesnt....just ends up being slush fund money

On top of that, most states have restrictions on a new hospital coming to the state.....ex....NH has some retarded rule that they have to get OK at the state level.....a cancer specialty hosp/group wanted to come NH a number a few years back and it was poo pooed by certain entities including existing hospitals cuz they dont want competition......cuz it drives down prices they can charge

On top of that there are very few independent primary care physicians out there.....majority have been bought out by the above hospital systems....they're all just employees......hospital handles all policy, hr, billing etc.......

So.....yes....almost our entire "health care" industry is "private" but subsidized by sally and joe taxpayer......who are also on the hook for high cost of health care services.....
So you are suggesting that the Government control all facilities that are hospitals and how their buildings are configured? Then how much they should charge for their services? Gee! That sounds a lot like a Bernie The Commie Follower.
 

namedpipes

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Yes and No.....

Hospital systems get crap tons of grant money/handouts/subsidies from taxpayers from various state and federal agencies.....cdc, nih....the list is endless in totally incomprehensible....I hesitate to say this applies to ALL Hospitals but its pretty much universal that they've got their hand(s) out gobbling up as much cash as possible....some of that has conditions on it as to how/what its used for (loosely).....lots doesnt....just ends up being slush fund money

On top of that, most states have restrictions on a new hospital coming to the state.....ex....NH has some retarded rule that they have to get OK at the state level.....a cancer specialty hosp/group wanted to come NH a number a few years back and it was poo pooed by certain entities including existing hospitals cuz they dont want competition......cuz it drives down prices they can charge

On top of that there are very few independent primary care physicians out there.....majority have been bought out by the above hospital systems....they're all just employees......hospital handles all policy, hr, billing etc.......

So.....yes....almost our entire "health care" industry is "private" but subsidized by sally and joe taxpayer......who are also on the hook for high cost of health care services.....
Healthcare IS very regulated, yes. MA has tons of oversight into how they operate as well. Probably too much.

Elect me as President and I'll issue an EO to wean EVERYBODY off of subsidies of any sort. Most "essential" services can be trimmed down, consolidated or eliminated and nobody would notice the difference. And that includes those hospitals.

But still, most are private businesses and the subsidies or protections they might enjoy don't give any ethical justification to control how they conduct business. Go ahead and wean away thos subsidies and protections - I'm all for that, but we have no say in how they do business.
 

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I read that NYC is in a crisis because 13 people died last night from the virus, what I don't understand is why this is sending them into a tizzy because I am sure that over that amount must die in NYC every day from different causes.
 

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The majority of healthcare in this country is private enterprise.
funny part is "public" hospitals in this state have better pay and do generally better than "private" because of the grants and endowment and other bullshit, i.e. public expense.

there is no such thing as private anymore aside from small to mid size companies, especially the bigger the company, the more it mooches off public. Be it .gov contracts, grants, the money is coming from taxpayer's pocket direct.



Look at the $$$ thats been wasted just in the last week
one man's "waste" is another men's extra house/boat/vacation. All these "wasted" money go into someone's pocket and that's how those people like it.
 
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namedpipes

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I read that NYC is in a crisis because 13 people died last night from the virus, what I don't understand is why this is sending them into a tizzy because I am sure that over that amount must die in NYC every day from different causes.
I suspect it's more the 22k cases in NYC that is alarming people, than the 13 that died last night.
 

Boris

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Elect me as President and I'll issue an EO to wean EVERYBODY off of subsidies of any sort. Most "essential" services can be trimmed down, consolidated or eliminated and nobody would notice the difference. And that includes those hospitals.
more than half of US are directly dependent on .gov cash flowing. You stop that and we have massive unemployment and EBT riots.
 
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Groups like FEMA or our local MEMA have a reasonable onus to keep emergency supplies on hand. I don't feel too back making THEM conduct proper prepping operations.

I think you work for BP or some such, and your agency's requirements are probably a lot different. Setup a warehouse, store the stuff inside, seal it up tight and fill it with nitrogen. It'll keep the critters out and handle any two legged thieves too. [laugh] There must be a product that can be attached to a genset to start it once a week for 30 minutes. I dare you to suggest the nitrogen idea to your management team!
Yes, I was only speaking towards the individual agency/station requirements. FEMA should have had it ship together, and I'm not entirely convinced there isn't a 'Raiders of the Lost Ark' warehouse that people just don't remember about full of this crap. We've seen it with the food in Puerto Rico, entire trucks of rotted food that got 'lost'.
 

namedpipes

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more than half of US are directly dependent on .gov cash flowing. You stop that and we have massive unemployment and EBT riots.
Absolutely. I'm quite certain my employer would tank if that happened suddenly. In reality it should be done, but it should be done gradually. And people that get in the way of weaning us off the government tea--, er, cheese, should be going to jail. It would take decades to fix, just like it took decades to cause.


Yes, I was only speaking towards the individual agency/station requirements. FEMA should have had it ship together, and I'm not entirely convinced there isn't a 'Raiders of the Lost Ark' warehouse that people just don't remember about full of this crap. We've seen it with the food in Puerto Rico, entire trucks of rotted food that got 'lost'.
Warehouse 13!
 

jpk

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So you are suggesting that the Government control all facilities that are hospitals and how their buildings are configured? Then how much they should charge for their services? Gee! That sounds a lot like a Bernie The Commie Follower.
No

What I outlined is the reality of current situation/state....lots of comparisons that can be made between hospitals and higher education

I'm of the opinion that gov generally speaking needs to GTFO out of the equasion except for basic requirements/compliance......
 
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Why don't You stick to one or the other, This is the second time I questioned you and you go off about education. You seem to have a problem staying on point.
 

jpk

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Why don't You stick to one or the other, This is the second time I questioned you and you go off about education. You seem to have a problem staying on point.
Are you suggesting that there arent correlations/parallels between "Health Care" and "Higher Education"?

At the most fundamental level wrt cost......the subsidization rule applies.......the more you subsidize something, the more expensive it becomes.
 

Jason Flare

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Some people didn’t prepare for this.

You have been told for years how to financially prepare.

Two weeks into this and you’re crying like babies.

How much should you save? While the size of your emergency fund will vary depending on your lifestyle, monthly costs, income, and dependents, the rule of thumb is to put away at least three to six months' worth of expenses.
Next time Be Prepared.
 
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