Is anyone starting to think all these closings are going a bit too far?

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Over 83,000 NH residents work in MA so this is probably spread around. I doubt there will be very much variation across the region, outside of the hotspots emanating from the BioGen conference.
Good point for sure. But to be clear, I'm not worried about covid just feeling fortunate I can use 5hat as an excuse to duck out of family commitments in april.
 
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Nope.... Greater NYC needs to be welded in their houses. Stop domestic air travel. Picket line west of the Rockies.

Well, maybe hyperbole......But no, its not too much. Its not enough....

No, I'm not a statist. Yes, I understand the libs will not let this crisis go to waste. Yes, I understand the economy is cratering.

In 2 weeks we might be Italy x 5, NYC is almost there now... I really hope what we're already doing will be enough, but if it is, it just means we got lucky.

A LOT of people are gonna die soon if we don't clamp this shit down right now.

Telling people their loved one died, or is going to die and we can't stop it, is miserable. Every time. You don't get used to it.

Flame away.
 

Len-2A Training

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If you think that this is a lot about nothing, give this a read. My Wife worked with some of the doctors who signed this letter. It is from 50 doctors in Boston/Brookline.

From a group of 50 Brookline, MA physicians:

“As there is so much confusion, misinformation and denial on social media about the coronavirus we hope to explain, in plain language, why the experts see this as such an emergency. Many people are reading the claim online that this virus is a lot like the viruses that cause colds, and that if you get it, it will probably just seem like a bad cold and you are very unlikely to die. Depending on who you are, this may be true, but there is more to this story that is key to our outcome as a community.

This is a coronavirus that is new to the human population. Although it is related to the viruses that cause colds, and acts a lot like them in many ways, nobody has ever been exposed to this before, which means nobody has any immunity to it.

The virus is now moving explosively through the human population, spreading through respiratory secretions and 10 times more contagious that the flu or cold. Although many people will recover, about 20% will wind up with a serious pneumonia that will require hospitalization. Some will be so ill from the pneumonia that they will die. We estimate this may be 2-3%, but it is higher in Italy’s experience, partially because the healthcare system was overwhelmed so rapidly. In those over age 70, the death rate is 8-20%. So if a child catches it on a playdate, they can easily transmit it to their grandmother as easily as touching the same doorknob or countertop.

Scientists measure the spread of an epidemic by a number called R0, or “R naught.” That number is calculated this way: for every person who develops the illness, how many other people do they give it to before they are cured (or dead) and no longer infectious? The R0 for coronavirus appears to be a number close to 3 – an extremely frightening number for such a deadly disease.

Suppose you catch the virus. You will give it to 3 other people, and they will each give it to three others, and so forth. Here is how the math works, where you, the “index case,” are the first line:
1
3
9
27
81
243
729
2,187
6,561
19,683
59,046
177,147
531,441
1,594,323
4,782,969
14,348,907

So, in just 15 steps of transmission, the virus has gone from just one index case to 14.3 million other people. Those 15 steps might take only a few weeks. With school out and lots of playdates, maybe less. The first person may be young and healthy Brookline child, but many of those 14 million people will be old and sick, and they will likely die because they got a virus that started in one person's throat.
R0 is not fixed – it can be lowered by control measures. If we can get the number below 1, the epidemic will die out. This is the point of the quarantines and social distancing, but we are not doing it fast enough.

In the US, we have to slow down the virus. American hospitals, Boston hospitals, have limited resources. We have a fixed number of ventilators and an impending calamity on our hands. Our Italian critical care colleagues have shared with us that they simply do not have enough resources (ventilators, physicians and nurse, critical care beds), and are forced to choose who lives and dies based on old tenets of wartime triage. Older patients do not even get a ventilator and die of their pneumonia. These are decisions nobody should have to face, and we are only 11 days behind Italy’s fate. Their hospitals are quite advanced, and we are no better in Boston. As doctors, we are desperately trying to prepare for the onslaught of patients in the coming weeks. It is already beginning. This is an opportunity for you as the district leadership the time to be aggressive and help us fight this by “Flattening the Curve”.

We implore you, as a group of Boston’s doctors preparing to fight this, to help us. Please send a new email to ALL the Brookline school district families. Social distancing is painful. We know that kids have cabin fever, they are pleading to see their friends, they may have birthday parties coming up or special events they have been looking forward to. All of us need to work and childcare is a big worry. But we need to overcome these issues and boredom for the coming weeks so that we can survive this with as few deaths as possible. What does that mean?

1) No playdates, not even 1:1.
2) No small gatherings, no meetings between a couple families, even for birthday parties.
3) Avoid trampoline parks, climbing gyms, restaurants, movie theaters, anything in an enclosed area. Many of these places are advertising increased cleaning and hygiene. This is not sufficient! Do not go.
4) Cancel planned vacations for the next month. Avoid airline travel that is not an emergency. Many airlines and rental agencies are offering penalty free cancellations.
5) Stay at home as much as possible. Work from home if you possibly can. You may have to go buy groceries and medicine, of course, but make the trips quick and purposeful.
6) Wash your hands thoroughly after you have been in public places, for a full 20 seconds, soaping up thoroughly and being sure to get between the fingers.
7) Please avoid disseminating social media claims that the situation is not serious or is being exaggerated. This is a national crisis and conveying misinformation to your friends and family may put their lives in danger.

Thank you for taking the time to read this and stay safe and healthy in the coming weeks.”

Respectfully,
Erika Rangel, MD, Director of Surgical Critical Care, Brigham and Women’s Faulkner Hospital
Shawn Rangel, MD, Pediatric Surgery, Children’s Hospital Boston
Asaf Bitton, MD, Executive Director Ariadne Labs and Internal Medicine, BWH
Daniel O’connor, MD, Pediatrics, Longwood Pediatrics and Children’s Hospital Boston
Beth O’connor, MD, Pediatrics, Roslindale Pediatrics
Vandana Madhavan, MD, Clinical Director of Pediatric Infectious Disease, MGH
Parag Amin, MD, Pediatrics, Centre Pediatrics
Christy Cummings, MD, Neonatology, Children’s Hospital Boston
Eric Bluman, MD, Orthopedic Surgery, BWH
Trimble Augur, MD, Internal Medicine, Hebrew Rehabilitation Center
Dasha Weir, MD, Pediatric gastroenterology
Amy Evenson Warren, Transplant Surgery, BIDMC
William Oldham, MD, PhD, Pulmonary and Critical Care Medicine, BWH
James Kryzanski, MD, Neurosurgery, Tufts Medical Center
Ben Zendejas-Mummert, MD, Pediatric Surgery, Children’s Hospital Boston
Johanna Iturrino Moreda, MD, Gastroenterology, BIDMC
David Berg, MD, Cardiology and Cardiac Critical Care, BWH
Jennifer Crombie, MD, Hematology Oncology, BWH
Jenifer Lightdale, MD, Chief of Pediatric Gastroenterology, U Mass Memorial Hospital
Wayne Tworetzky, MD, Pediatric Cardiology, Children’s Hospital Boston
Elaine Yu, MD, Endocrinology
Jonathan Li, Infectious Disease
Nancy Cho, MD, Surgical Oncology, BWH
Eric Sheu, MD, Minimally Invasive Surgery, BWH
Reza Askari, MD, Director, Surgical Critical Care, BWH
Cindy Lien, MD, Internal Medicine and Palliative Care, BIDMC
Hannah Parker, MD, OB/GYN
Alysa E. Doyle, PhD, Center for Genomic Medicine, MGH
Christopher Smith, MD, Internal Medicine, Charles River Medical Associates, Wellesley, MA
Maya Greer, NP, Children’s Hospital Boston
Rusty Jennings, MD, Pediatric Surgery, Children’s Hospital Boston
Emily Oken, MD, Professor of Population Medicine, BWH
Chinwe Ukomadu, MD, Head of Clinical Hepatology, Novartis
Jennifer Kaufman, MD, Internal Medicine, BWH
Ann Poduri, MD, MPH, Pediatric Neurology
Susan Yehle Ritter, MD, Rheumatology
Diego Martinucci, MD Psychiatry, Atrius Health
Shih-Ning Liaw, MD, Pediatric Palliative Care, Dana-Farber Cancer Institute/Boston Children’s Hospital
Wolfram Goessling, MD, Gastroenterology and Oncology, MGH
Paola Daza, Pediatrics, MGH
Juan Matute, Neonatology, MGH
John Ross, MD, Internal Medicine, BWH
Megan Sandel, MD, Pediatrics, Boston Medical Center
Kathy Calvillo, MD, Surgery, BWH
Christine Greco, MD, Anesthesia, Children’s Hospital Boston
Niteesh Choudhry, MD, PhD, Internal Medicine, BWH and Harvard T.H. Chand School of Public Health
Chandru Krishnan, MD, Ophthalmology, Tufts Medical Center
Amy Ship, MD, Internal Medicine, Associate Director of Medical Education, Atrius Health
Yen-Lin Evelyn Chen, MD, Radiation Oncology, MGH
Daihung Do, MD, Dermatology, BIDMC
Chloe Zera, MD, MPH, Maternal Fetal Medicine, BIDMC
Alejandra Barrero-Castillero, MD, MPH, Neonatology, Children’s Hospital Boston
Jesse Esch, MD, Pediatric Cardiology, Children’s Hospital Boston
Alison Packard, MD, OB/GYN, MGH
Vik Khurana, MD PhD, Chief Division of Movement Disorders, BWH
Tu-Mai Tran, MD, MSc, Family Medicine, BMC
Yu Liu, MD PhD, Internal Medicine, Bristol Myers Squibb
Yih-Chieh Chen, MD
Lily Li, MD, Allergy and Immunology, BWH
 

drgrant

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None of those completely overwhelm the health care system.
That's ultimately the core of this entire thing, that I think a lot of people are missing. If most coronavirus patients just died in their sleep at home, nobody
would give a shit, or at least not the same way. The problem here is it bogs hospitals etc down.- and you can set up a nightmare situation where
care has to be rationed for people who have other health issues, then there's an amplification of that problem when healthcare workers get sick from it too, it cripples
the capacity of the whole system.
 

jpk

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None of those completely overwhelm the health care system.
Mostly because hospitals have built a business model around management of these diseases over a longer/expanded period of time.

If we didnt have flu vaccine we would see massive numbers of people overwhelm health care capacity each year......maybe at a lower rate but it would be more similar wrt theme and variation

Fatality rate of seasonal flu with vaccine in US and most of western world where medical intervention is avail is between 8 and 15/100k

In africa the fatality rate is between 100 and 235/100k depending on the country....most of those fatalities are a function of lack of health care options so instead of respirators/oxygen etc these people just die......
 

Boris

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If you think that this is a lot about nothing, give this a read. My Wife worked with some of the doctors who signed this letter. It is from 50 doctors in Boston/Brookline.
and how many of those f***ing doctors said anything when planes from China were still flying to Logan?


A lot of hospitals actually reduce number of beds as a strategy to increase profitability. MetroWest outright decided to retool their entire Natick campus with massive layoffs, like a month or two ago. All this optimization leads to bigger bonuses for the top management. Why? Because if there is an emergency like we got, nanny .gov will bale them out, no one will be responsible. They will be hailed as heros regardless.

This "capitalist, free market system" is in fact a socialist construct. Big goverment IS socialism. Chew on that.
 

beaker

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and how many of those f***ing doctors said anything when planes from China were still flying to Logan?


A lot of hospitals actually reduce number of beds as a strategy to increase profitability. MetroWest outright decided to retool their entire Natick campus with massive layoffs, like a month or two ago. All this optimization leads to bigger bonuses for the top management. Why? Because if there is an emergency like we got, nanny .gov will bale them out, no one will be responsible. They will be hailed as heros regardless.

This "capitalist, free market system" is in fact a socialist construct. Big goverment IS socialism. Chew on that.
I am sure many of them called Trump a racist when he shut down flights from China. they had none of the info they are using now. Even then, their death rate number of 2-3% is not even close to what we know now, it is below 1% already as more data becomes available from testing. The R0 number is likely too large as well.
 

CLW42

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I am sure many of them called Trump a racist when he shut down flights from China. they had none of the info they are using now. Even then, their death rate number of 2-3% is not even close to what we know now, it is below 1% already as more data becomes available from testing. The R0 number is likely too large as well.
Blasphemy!
 
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People keep talking about the death rate, and how most of the fatalities are elderly or in poor health, but most of these statements are missing a critical point. The experience in Italy shows that the fatality rates of less than 1% are based on good medical care. And the very low fatality rates among young and healthy people are also based on excellent care.

Instead, we need to look at the hospitalization and ICU admission rates. And the hospitalization rates for younger adults with no preexisting conditions now look to be around 2%. With ICU beds and ventilators available, very few of these younger people die, but without medical care, that death rate increases sharply. So flattening the curve to a level that the medical system can handle is a very big deal. It is not just about protecting the elderly and at risk, everyone who gets this virus needs access to a functioning medical system.

I also want to emphasize how serious being admitted to the hospital is. I have been very sick and still been helped and than sent home that night, and I know many people who have had similar experiences. When young healthy people are admitted to the hospital, they are really sick. So we need to stop thinking that if you are young and strong, then this is just a bad cold. Actually, it is a serious crapshoot for everyone, and a far worse gamble for anyone with preexisting conditions.

Lastly, I really hope that everyone reads post #130 in this thread from @Len-2A Training.
 

jpk

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People keep talking about the death rate, and how most of the fatalities are elderly or in poor health, but most of these statements are missing a critical point. The experience in Italy shows that the fatality rates of less than 1% are based on good medical care. And the very low fatality rates among young and healthy people are also based on excellent care.

Instead, we need to look at the hospitalization and ICU admission rates. And the hospitalization rates for younger adults with no preexisting conditions now look to be around 2%. With ICU beds and ventilators available, very few of these younger people die, but without medical care, that death rate increases sharply. So flattening the curve to a level that the medical system can handle is a very big deal. It is not just about protecting the elderly and at risk, everyone who gets this virus needs access to a functioning medical system.

I also want to emphasize how serious being admitted to the hospital is. I have been very sick and still been helped and than sent home that night, and I know many people who have had similar experiences. When young healthy people are admitted to the hospital, they are really sick. So we need to stop thinking that if you are young and strong, then this is just a bad cold. Actually, it is a serious crapshoot for everyone, and a far worse gamble for anyone with preexisting conditions.

Lastly, I really hope that everyone reads post #130 in this thread from @Len-2A Training.
This ^^^^

If we could get more people to wear masks in combination with social distancing and voluntarily limiting public contact wherever possible the transmission rate would plummet and hospital admissions would similarly go down to ensure people that DO get sick will get care.
 

namedpipes

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Mostly because hospitals have built a business model around management of these diseases over a longer/expanded period of time. ...
It is not possible to create a healthcare system that can handle 100's of thousands or millions of cases at once.

Not without destroying everything else, anyway.

Healthcare in the US may have it's issues, but the business model isn't why this pandemic is a problem.
 

jpk

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It is not possible to create a healthcare system that can handle 100's of thousands or millions of cases at once.

Not without destroying everything else, anyway.

Healthcare in the US may have it's issues, but the business model isn't why this pandemic is a problem.
Yes and No

Prior to hillary clintons failed attempt in the 90's to nationalize health care and subsequent imposition of "manage care" on hospitalls. Md's. Formularies etc to impose "LEAN" or "Just In Time" principals, Hospitals, Md's Forumlaries etc kept much much much larger stocks of all sorts of thing on hand

Cost of healthcare has exploded in last couple decades largely due to increase in "administration" and "compliance"....dont get me started on costs associated with "Insurance"
 

Crotchrocket

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Does it seem odd that every news article about the virus has the exact same “disclaimer” at the end of the article verbatim?

“For most people, the new coronavirus causes only mild or moderate symptoms, such as fever and cough. For some, especially older adults and people with existing health problems, it can cause more severe illness, including pneumonia, or death. The vast majority of people recover.”
 
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