Is a PCC that uses a different mag than your pistol a dealbreaker?

I'll solve your problem. PCCs are stupid as a defensive weapon. If you are using a rifle, it should be using a 3000fps projectile, not a 1200fps one.

Would you use a PCC to hunt? No. You know why? Because trying to kill things with a PCC when your explicit intent is to kill is inhuman. Pick up a .223 or .308.

There are some PCCs that are smaller and even fold making them a little more accessible for defensive use than a full sized rifle when space is at a premium. At my office I don’t have the safe space for a loaded AR but I do for a folded Sub2000 (Glock compatible mags). It‘s my get home gun (I also carry all day, every day, but might want something a little more substantial than my 365 if I need to bug out of the office in a SHTF scenario). At home it’s a similar situation: I can store a folded Sub in my upstairs safe right next to the mag compatible Glock. My long guns are in a safe in the other part of the house. The Sub2000/Glock will get me to my rifles if needed and will take care of intruders.

I got the Subs first, then a Glock to match the mags as my primary home pro handgun.

If safe space wasn’t a factor, I’d definitely choose a rifle.
 
Just curious... Why do you want a 10mm PCC? The ballistics out of a 9mm PCC are pretty good. That said, I would love a PCC in 10mm haha.
I reload 10mm, I have the 10mm Glock, and I think 10mm from a carbine is significantly better than 9mm, enough better that I would say 10 is equivalent to .30 Carbine from an M1.
 
Oh yeah, I got sidetracked...

As to:

Is a PCC that uses a different mag than your pistol a dealbreaker?​


Not for me as long as they take the same ammo, I'm ok with it...
This is a good point and I wasn't thinking about it until you said it. While I reload, my preference is going to use the same ammo in between the pistol and carbine, so if one prefers one ammo and the other hates it, it doesn't make for an ideal situation where I have to load several different versions of a handload.

I was about to give the nod to the TNW because I look at it as a modern M1 Carbine in 10mm, but it could shoot my reloads like crap. I guess the wiser thing to do is start with the Hi Point and work my way up to the TNW and so on until I find a 10mm carbine that shoots my reloads to a point where I'm confident in things.
 
I'll solve your problem. PCCs are stupid as a defensive weapon. If you are using a rifle, it should be using a 3000fps projectile, not a 1200fps one.

Would you use a PCC to hunt? No. You know why? Because trying to kill things with a PCC when your explicit intent is to kill is inhuman. Pick up a .223 or .308.
A 200 grain bullet going 1500 fps or a 180 going 1700 fps is nothing to sneeze at. People use .357 lever rifles to hunt and they're launching 158 grain bullets at 1700 fps, so the 10mm is not a red headed stepchild in terms of hunting.
 
This is a good point and I wasn't thinking about it until you said it. While I reload, my preference is going to use the same ammo in between the pistol and carbine, so if one prefers one ammo and the other hates it, it doesn't make for an ideal situation where I have to load several different versions of a handload.

I was about to give the nod to the TNW because I look at it as a modern M1 Carbine in 10mm, but it could shoot my reloads like crap. I guess the wiser thing to do is start with the Hi Point and work my way up to the TNW and so on until I find a 10mm carbine that shoots my reloads to a point where I'm confident in things.
Yep. Outfitting is like buying boots (or shoes)... Sometimes you have to try on a few before they are the right ones for you.
Luckily, anything you buy, and find out it's not a good match for you, will be sold to someone else pretty quickly and maybe at a profit...

Good luck in your search...
~Enbloc (who likes PCC's)
 
This is what I'm talking about: Perfect home defense/room clearing gun/fun range toy in 9mm... wish it had a can, but this is MA (also why the stock is an AR stock that's fixed, though there is much confusion whether an SBR qualifies for the AWB or not, as it isn't a rifle, nor a pistol).

View attachment 440020
That is giving me AIDS. f***ing AIDS.

A fixed AR stock.

I could cry.
 
I think a lot of us assumed it was for defensive purposes. Otherwise who cares if the mags match
If you haven't come out from under a rock lately and felt the political climate, semi autos and detachable clipazines are not very popular with the ruling party. Now, for a 10mm Carbine you've only got two choices: Glock magazine or Hi Point Carbine. It's never my goal to make a thread and ask a specfiic question that's focused solely on my circumstances, but to bring up a topic with a deeper question, in this case PCC's that don't use the same mags as the pistols someone owns.

You're right to assume it's for defense because that's what most of my guns are for, but there's more to it than just that, it's also what's going to work with the ammo I feed it and enbloc jogged my memory a bit. Who gives a fugg about mag compatibility, get what works. How do I know what works, I buy it and shoot it and if it doesn't work, I sell it.

Beyond that, there's also the curiosity and experience and I've never owned or shot a Hi Point carbine before.
 
I've long been a proponent of a doctrine that if you intend to own a pistol caliber carbine it should use the same magazines as your preferred pistol.

Sorry but this question sucks, its way too subjective depending on the situation, etc. There are clear advantages to both.

In the case of 10mm though? Yes, you would be retarded to use anything other than something that took G20 mags, but thats only because I think the only
other vendor that ever made 10mm guns like that was HK (eg, the 10mm MP5).
 
The idea of 5.56 or 7.62 zipping through drywall or wood and hitting a neighbor/another house/car/etc is particularly concerning.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCsVOO_3EUU



Ask anyone who has seen the aftermath of an ND in a typical house, with a 9, a 40, or a 45.... they would laugh in your face if you told them this. It's pretty much nothing for a
pistol bullet to sail right through a couple of walls, insulation and all.
 

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCsVOO_3EUU



Ask anyone who has seen the aftermath of an ND in a typical house, with a 9, a 40, or a 45.... they would laugh in your face if you told them this. It's pretty much nothing for a
pistol bullet to sail right through a couple of walls, insulation and all.

Nah bro, good paneling will slow it down or just ricochet back into the shooter’s stupid face.
 
Sorry but this question sucks, its way too subjective depending on the situation, etc. There are clear advantages to both.

In the case of 10mm though? Yes, you would be retarded to use anything other than something that took G20 mags, but thats only because I think the only
other vendor that ever made 10mm guns like that was HK (eg, the 10mm MP5).
And Hi Point. I doubt a 10mm MP5 and mags are easy to come by in a semi auto with a 16 inch barrel.

I really do wish Ruger would make a PC carbine in 10mm so it would be an easy choice of what to get. Oh well, not the first time Ruger has disappointed me with not bringing a certain firearm to market.
 
If you haven't come out from under a rock lately and felt the political climate, semi autos and detachable clipazines are not very popular with the ruling party. Now, for a 10mm Carbine you've only got two choices: Glock magazine or Hi Point Carbine. It's never my goal to make a thread and ask a specfiic question that's focused solely on my circumstances, but to bring up a topic with a deeper question, in this case PCC's that don't use the same mags as the pistols someone owns.

You're right to assume it's for defense because that's what most of my guns are for, but there's more to it than just that, it's also what's going to work with the ammo I feed it and enbloc jogged my memory a bit. Who gives a fugg about mag compatibility, get what works. How do I know what works, I buy it and shoot it and if it doesn't work, I sell it.

Beyond that, there's also the curiosity and experience and I've never owned or shot a Hi Point carbine before.
Well if you just started carrying a 10mm hipoint pistol, you’d be all set!! Hehe. The 10 rnd max would bug me too. My friend carries a full size mp 45, fits my hand beautifully, great shooter, only 10 round mags though!! If it weren’t for that I would own one myself.
 

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCsVOO_3EUU



Ask anyone who has seen the aftermath of an ND in a typical house, with a 9, a 40, or a 45.... they would laugh in your face if you told them this. It's pretty much nothing for a
pistol bullet to sail right through a couple of walls, insulation and all.


That’s my point in terms of 9mm vs 5.56/7.62. Lot more energy in the rifle round, it’s going to travel farther and likely over-penetrate to a greater degree. Not a characteristic I want in a self-defense round used in tight spaces with neighbors or family close by. Also, rounds like Hornady Critical Defense will not penetrate as far because of the design.

I haven’t looked at self-defense ammo in 5.56 nor sub-sonic ammo to see the difference in energy from 9, though I imagine it’s still pretty big given the typical 16” barrel length vs 6”. Maybe they are closer and worth a look, but I’m still sticking with the PCC for now.

This article pretty much lays it out, though it is comparing two kinds of Hornady ammo, the critical defense ammo is designed not to overpen and is a lower energy round regardless.

 
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If you haven't come out from under a rock lately and felt the political climate, semi autos and detachable clipazines are not very popular with the ruling party. Now, for a 10mm Carbine you've only got two choices: Glock magazine or Hi Point Carbine. It's never my goal to make a thread and ask a specfiic question that's focused solely on my circumstances, but to bring up a topic with a deeper question, in this case PCC's that don't use the same mags as the pistols someone owns.

You're right to assume it's for defense because that's what most of my guns are for, but there's more to it than just that, it's also what's going to work with the ammo I feed it and enbloc jogged my memory a bit. Who gives a fugg about mag compatibility, get what works. How do I know what works, I buy it and shoot it and if it doesn't work, I sell it.

Beyond that, there's also the curiosity and experience and I've never owned or shot a Hi Point carbine before.
So you have 2 choices of magazines. If you aren't using the gun for self defense then the magazine question is really irrelevant unless you are trying to save money or your range bag is really small. So I assumed it was for self defense. Why is this question only pertinent to the PCC as opposed to every autoloader you purchase?
 
That’s my point in terms of 9mm vs 5.56/7.62. Lot more energy in the rifle round, it’s going to travel farther and likely over-penetrate to a greater degree. Not a characteristic I want in a self-defense round used in tight spaces with neighbors or family close by. Also, rounds like Hornady Critical Defense will not penetrate as far because of the design.

I haven’t looked at self-defense ammo in 5.56 nor sub-sonic ammo to see the difference in energy from 9, though I imagine it’s still pretty big given the typical 16” barrel length vs 6”. Maybe they are closer and worth a look, but I’m still sticking with the PCC for now.

This article pretty much lays it out, though it is comparing two kinds of Hornady ammo, the critical defense ammo is designed not to overpen and is a lower energy round regardless.

The velocity of 5.56 makes many of its loads less likely to fly through a bunch of walls compared to 9mm. The 5.56(bullet dependent of course), is more likely to break apart. But any cartridge capable of killing someone is also capable of flying through a few dry wall sheets.

Also, you mentioned this:
*Edit* Stopping power is BS at self defense distances. It's all about hit location and follow up shot accuracy. Someone with multiple 9mm holes in them is going to bleed out just as quick as someone with multiple 5.56 holes
That is very wrong. The permanent cavitation caused by rifle rounds at close self defense distances is vastly more likely to kill someone quicker than 9mm. The rifle cartridge is more likely to cause sudden hypovolemic shock. And it’s also less location dependent. For 9mm, you have very small targets for instantly putting the bad guy down. With a rifle, there’s more wiggle room. In fact, just having a rifle bullet pass in close proximity to the spine can cause temporary incapacitation. The pressure through the tissue/fluids during the temporary cavitation can travel through the subarachnoid space around the spinal cord and cause the spinal cord to smack against the vertabrae. Causing the bad guy to drop, even if not permanently. That can, of course happen with the temporary cavitation of a pistol cartridge too, but their temporary cavitation is much smaller.

Rifles are way easier to cause immediate incapacitation than pistol calibers at self defense distances.

That said, I do think PCCs have their merits in home defense. They are much quieter, even as you go down to the shorty short barrel lengths that are desired in some smaller homes (like those common in New England). People rarely balk at having a pistol in a nightstand for home defense. Yet you mention a PCC or braced pistol, and woah, all of a sudden the cartridge won’t stop someone?
 
I've long been a proponent of a doctrine that if you intend to own a pistol caliber carbine it should use the same magazines as your preferred pistol. For me that has been Glock mags for 9 and .40; very easy to find carbines that use those mags. However, 10mm carbines are not as available and if I want to go with Glock mag compatibility, I'm stuck with the expensive and IMO unecessarily complex Kriss Vector, a bare bones TNW Aero Survival rifle, a Just Right Carbine, or the Mech-Tech upper that mates with a Glock frame. None of those are ideal, probably the dwarf among those midgets would be the TNW because it's pretty light and TNW sells conversion kits for other calibers.

The alternative option is something that doesn't use the Glock mags and the only 10mm carbine I know of that doesn't is Hi Point. I'm not opposed to a Hi Point carbine, they seem to be held in higher regard than the pistols, it's just being stuck with proprietary magazines that hold 10 rds is the drawback.

That said, for a 10mm carbine, I'm not feeling I need to get extended mags that hold 20 or 30 rounds of 10mm like I did with 9mm and .40 years ago. I mean, I largely grabbed those extended mags because they were available and cheap and right now the only company that makes a 30 rd 10mm Glock mag is ETS and I've found that those magazines run just fine in blowback carbines, but have significant issues in the Glock pistols. Knowing what I know about those ETS mags, I don't care to bother with them considering they don't work well in pistols.

So, either I'm stuck with 10 rd Hi Point or 15 rd Glock mags.

What do you gentleman think? Get a carbine that isn't tickling my fancy becuase it uses Glock mags that I have or settle for something less that does interest me some, but uses mags different from the Glock I own?
Just an idea, I think this is a legitimate third option. Buy a Ruger PCC in .40 and have a smith make it into a 10mm. Off the top of my head you would have to resize the chamber and change the recoil spring/buffer to handle the hotter load.
 
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That’s my point in terms of 9mm vs 5.56/7.62. Lot more energy in the rifle round, it’s going to travel farther and likely over-penetrate to a greater degree. Not a characteristic I want in a self-defense round used in tight spaces with neighbors or family close by. Also, rounds like Hornady Critical Defense will not penetrate as far because of the design.

I haven’t looked at self-defense ammo in 5.56 nor sub-sonic ammo to see the difference in energy from 9, though I imagine it’s still pretty big given the typical 16” barrel length vs 6”. Maybe they are closer and worth a look, but I’m still sticking with the PCC for now.

This article pretty much lays it out, though it is comparing two kinds of Hornady ammo, the critical defense ammo is designed not to overpen and is a lower energy round regardless.

I think you should build some small walls and actually test critical defense for your gun and a PCC if you're using one.

The test you posted is results from a 3" barrel. The pics are results of non-barrier contact.

Either way that bullet is capable of going through a number of walls and still killing someone.
 
The velocity of 5.56 makes many of its loads less likely to fly through a bunch of walls compared to 9mm. The 5.56(bullet dependent of course), is more likely to break apart. But any cartridge capable of killing someone is also capable of flying through a few dry wall sheets.

Also, you mentioned this:

That is very wrong. The permanent cavitation caused by rifle rounds at close self defense distances is vastly more likely to kill someone quicker than 9mm. The rifle cartridge is more likely to cause sudden hypovolemic shock. And it’s also less location dependent. For 9mm, you have very small targets for instantly putting the bad guy down. With a rifle, there’s more wiggle room. In fact, just having a rifle bullet pass in close proximity to the spine can cause temporary incapacitation. The pressure through the tissue/fluids during the temporary cavitation can travel through the subarachnoid space around the spinal cord and cause the spinal cord to smack against the vertabrae. Causing the bad guy to drop, even if not permanently. That can, of course happen with the temporary cavitation of a pistol cartridge too, but their temporary cavitation is much smaller.

Rifles are way easier to cause immediate incapacitation than pistol calibers at self defense distances.

That said, I do think PCCs have their merits in home defense. They are much quieter, even as you go down to the shorty short barrel lengths that are desired in some smaller homes (like those common in New England). People rarely balk at having a pistol in a nightstand for home defense. Yet you mention a PCC or braced pistol, and woah, all of a sudden the cartridge won’t stop someone?
It think the last point about pistol vs PCC is, if you're going to have a carbine length gun, why use pistol ammo when we know the rifle ammo is going to be better at stopping the threat? If you gave me a choice between a 17 round PCC with even a short 8" barrel or a 30rd AR pistol with an 8" barrel, I pick the AR every day.

With the pistol you are limiting lethality and most of the time capacity over the AR. Why do that for a defense gun?

I'd love to own an MP5. But the reality is if I bought one it would be a toy and my AR pistol would still remain my house clearing gun.
 
huh? what do you mean by that?
I think (and he can correct me if I'm misunderstanding) means "a pistol on the nightstand" is the most common go to home defense weapon situation for a gunowner, so a PCC is a better option than that.

I agree there, the PCC is better than the pistol. However, shouod you spend money on a PCC that shares mags with your other pistols, or take that money and buy a short barrel AR? Buy the AR IMO.
 
I think (and he can correct me if I'm misunderstanding) means "a pistol on the nightstand" is the most common go to home defense weapon situation for a gunowner, so a PCC is a better option than that.
I agree there, the PCC is better than the pistol. However, shouod you spend money on a PCC that shares mags with your other pistols, or take that money and buy a short barrel AR? Buy the AR IMO.
i figured the same, so, deleted the thing. to be frank, i am absolutely not on the pcc wagon.
but, if i ever would decide to buy one - i would get something that would take my glock mags, for sure.

as of ultimate home defence, - get a saiga-12 or something of a kind, if a usual 9mm pistol in the nightstand is not enough anymore.
 
It think the last point about pistol vs PCC is, if you're going to have a carbine length gun, why use pistol ammo when we know the rifle ammo is going to be better at stopping the threat? If you gave me a choice between a 17 round PCC with even a short 8" barrel or a 30rd AR pistol with an 8" barrel, I pick the AR every day.

With the pistol you are limiting lethality and most of the time capacity over the AR. Why do that for a defense gun?

I'd love to own an MP5. But the reality is if I bought one it would be a toy and my AR pistol would still remain my house clearing gun.
Oof, 8” 5.56 inside a house? Holy overpressure Batman. Unless you’re thinking a 300BLK with an appropriate bullet choice.

An MP5 will easily get the job done. I would gladly use an SP5. But I think the press and court system would have a field day in a defense situation if I ventilated a home intruder with an SP5 with a binary trigger.
 
Oof, 8” 5.56 inside a house? Holy overpressure Batman. Unless you’re thinking a 300BLK with an appropriate bullet choice.

An MP5 will easily get the job done. I would gladly use an SP5. But I think the press and court system would have a field day in a defense situation if I ventilated a home intruder with an SP5 with a binary trigger.
I have an 8 inch SBR, its not perfectly reliable either and its a piston. Ima stick with my 300AAC subsonic suppressed and roll the dice its enough stopping power, I'm confident its all good based on the Discreet Ballistics round I pulled out of a fat ass dead doe in December. She weighed out at 140lbs, about the same as the addicts and tweekers in my hood.
 
Oof, 8” 5.56 inside a house? Holy overpressure Batman. Unless you’re thinking a 300BLK with an appropriate bullet choice.

An MP5 will easily get the job done. I would gladly use an SP5. But I think the press and court system would have a field day in a defense situation if I ventilated a home intruder with an SP5 with a binary trigger.

Loud is good. Loud is scary and disorienting.

Not a fan of wierd cartridges like 300blk. Again ok as a toy. Impractical in cost to feed.
 
See this whole conversation going on, is why I have a love hate relationship with AR's.

You can have a sbr 5.56/.223, and that same lower can be molded with something like a Stern defense kit, and make it capable of being a pcc.

Which, kinda destroys the need or reason for a pcc market or gun even.

While the Stern kit is creative and ingenious, it has the potential to destroy the pcc market.

Because all they or anyone else has to do is make magazine adapters for any pistol.
 
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