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"involuntarily committed"

milktree

milktree

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I have a potential student who is worried that spending a week in hospital for anxiety and depression when he was 15 might make him a prohibited person.

My understanding is that it does NOT, unless a court committed him.

i.e.: if his parents committed him, it was not "involuntary commitment" from a legal perspective, even if he, as a minor individual, didn't want it.

My thinking is that as a minor he didn't have any legal or practical mechanism to object, and I'm assuming his parents weren't told by a court to commit him.

The language (emphasis mine) in this ATF pdf

ATF guidance said:
...if that person has been formally committed to a mental institution by a court, board, commission, or other lawful authority
Click to expand...

suggests it has to be the state that does the commitment, not just your parents.

The only gotcha there is that "parents" might be considered a "lawful authority"; but I've never heard of parents being described like that.

What do you think? My gut says it counts as voluntary, or at least not a trigger for prohibited person status.
 
greencobra said:
a quick call to the peoples lawyer ought to produce an answer to the information you seek. 🤔
Click to expand...

??

Is "the people's lawyer" a euphemism for the AG?

Or do you mean the potential student's lawyer?

I've never heard of a quick call with any lawyer, ever. :)
 
milktree said:
What do you think? My gut says it counts as voluntary, or at least not a trigger for prohibited person status.
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I think it would be the parent consenting on behalf of the minor, just like a parent would be the one to sign consent for amputation of the leg of a 9 year old who didn't understand the medical necessity and wanted to keep the cancerous limb.
 
peterk123 said:
No cop, no court, no judge. It's nothing more than a vacation. Healt records are private.
Click to expand...
Some state licensing agencies have a policy of "no medical confidentiality waiver to all psychiatric records, CCW application will not be considered".
 
appraiser said:
court ordered disqualifies, aka "pink slipped"
Click to expand...
I might be splitting hairs here but in Mass, Section 12 paperwork is typically pink colored. A Section 12 hold is not a court order, is not a "commitment", is definitely not an automatic disqualifier for an LTC, and does not necessarily lead to seizure of firearms, although sometimes it does.
 
SgtHal75 said:
My question is : he was a minor, does he have to disclose anything? Just asking..
Click to expand...
MA issuing authorities do not generally recognize the right to withhold information on an LTC application even when that is firmly established in law. For example, in many states "Expungement' creates the "legal fiction" that something never happened, and you are legally allowed to answer "no" when asked if arrested or charged for an expunged offense. But, if a licensing officer finds out anyway, you almost certainly have an uphill battle to maybe get the legal fiction doctrine recognized. As the recent NHL issue involving a player with a juvenile record rating denouncement, "goes away at 18" is fiction.
 
Rob Boudrie said:
Except for that pesky "medical release" required for many state LTC applications.
Click to expand...
i signed one for a workmans comp case several years ago. my records were several thousand pages and the lawyers for the defense read every f***ing page of 'em. well, no, but traversed them with software that highlighted key words they wanted to hit on in court. my point is, i couldn't believe the history and documents they pulled going as far back as...well, day one. some people think medical records of juvenile's are sealed also. no, they are not. and what is scary, with my stuff, as well as this case dealing with a mental hospitalization, you have people with this information who have a very limited medical education, passing on this data to more people with even less medical knowledge, who use and spin the stuff they have to their advantage to get a desired result. it's scary that first moment you realize just how much they can find out. and nothing is off limits.
 
greencobra said:
i signed one for a workmans comp case several years ago. my records were several thousand pages and the lawyers for the defense read every f***ing page of 'em. well, no, but traversed them with software that highlighted key words they wanted to hit on in court. my point is, i couldn't believe the history and documents they pulled going as far back as...well, day one. some people think medical records of juvenile's are sealed also. no, they are not. and what is scary, with my stuff, as well as this case dealing with a mental hospitalization, you have people with this information who have a very limited medical education, passing on this data to more people with even less medical knowledge, who use and spin the stuff they have to their advantage to get a desired result. it's scary that first moment you realize just how much they can find out. and nothing is off limits.
Click to expand...
My wife does this for medical malpractice - both plaintiff and defense. She routinely gets thousands of pages to read in her role as an expert witness - and has the tenacity to find that one page that is key to a case.

As to accuracy of medical records - I have seen one record mentioning I was in the NBA (nope, had an MBA as part of my educational background) and another saying I had a rectal bleed (nope, retinal bleed). My doc calls that "chart lore".
 
SgtHal75 said:
My question is : he was a minor, does he have to disclose anything? Just asking..
Click to expand...
Minor or not is immaterial. The important issue is whether or not he was involuntarily committed (i.e., was a court involved). As suggested previously, have him contact Neil Tassel. I suspect the answer is no, but best not to mess around with this sort of thing.
 
M1911 said:
Minor or not is immaterial. The important issue is whether or not he was involuntarily committed (i.e., was a court involved). As suggested previously, have him contact Neil Tassel. I suspect the answer is no, but best not to mess around with this sort of thing.
Click to expand...

ATF guidance said:
...if that person has been formally committed to a mental institution by a court, board, commission, or other lawful authority
Click to expand...

But what about the bolded parts?

What's an "other lawful authority"?

"boards" and "commissions" are not COURTS, which implies there are other authorities that are NOT COURTS who can commit someone in a way that triggers PP status.
 
I don’t think his parents count as “other lawful authority”. But, as I said, he should contact Neil Tassel.
 
This is incorrect. A pink slip is no judicial and can be issued by a MD, RN, or police officer. It's sends a person to a hospital for a psych evaluation that can last no more than 72 hours. Even though it is involuntary, it is not court ordered.

It's called a "pink slip" because they used to be printed on pink paper. In 35 years in EMS I never saw one that was actually pink.

The original form started out "To the Superintendent of __________________________ State Hospital" since that's where people were transported to way back when. Now it just say "Application to _____________, which is almost always a hospital emergency department. A hospital emergency department is not a mental health facility, it's a medical facility that can make a determination if someone need mental health services.

M.G.L Chapter 123, Section 12 (a) and (b)

appraiser said:
court ordered disqualifies, aka "pink slipped"
Click to expand...
 
M1911 said:
I don’t think his parents count as “other lawful authority”. But, as I said, he should contact Neil Tassel.
Click to expand...

Right. But what a bout a doctor at the hospital? My point is that "not court" is not the same thing as "not prohibited person"
 
milktree said:
Right. But what a bout a doctor at the hospital? My point is that "not court" is not the same thing as "not prohibited person"
Click to expand...
I doubt that qualifies. A doctor can commit someone for 72 hours for evaluation. So someone can be sent for evaluation who is not mentally unfit. In fact, most who are sent for a 72 evaluation are diagnosed with a health insurance deficiency and discharged.
 
The federal law seems pretty clearly to mean commitment by a judge, since they can order someone confined to either prison or a mental facility.

A doctor can not, although some of them have found out the hard way that they are not judges.

I don't think that even a Section 35 Warrant would qualify, but that would require a lawyer to untangle since it's involuntary treatment of alcohol or drug abuse, not specifically mental health.

milktree said:
Right. But what a bout a doctor at the hospital? My point is that "not court" is not the same thing as "not prohibited person"
Click to expand...
 
Rob Boudrie said:
Some state licensing agencies have a policy of "no medical confidentiality waiver to all psychiatric records, CCW application will not be considered".
Click to expand...

NC makes you sign a medical record release when you apply.

Or at least they did in 2013.

but yeah in this case no judge, not a pp
 
Garys said:
The federal law seems pretty clearly to mean commitment by a judge, since they can order someone confined to either prison or a mental facility.

A doctor can not, although some of them have found out the hard way that they are not judges.

I don't think that even a Section 35 Warrant would qualify, but that would require a lawyer to untangle since it's involuntary treatment of alcohol or drug abuse, not specifically mental health.
Click to expand...

Can you give me an example of a "board, commission, or other lawful authority" that is not a court?
 

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