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Interesting day at the range

walter62

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So I took out the new 9mm 147gn FP that I've been making and saw some interesting results.

>> Non-'scientific', NO benchrest (ie. handheld @ 40'). Same gun (P226), same POA (as best as I could)

I'll have to do some closer examination and testing but the RED grouping is factory Venom 115 FMJ
and the BLUE grouping is 147.

I almost never hit on the right/east side of the target but almost all of the 147 fell there.
The 115 FMJs were all clustered in the southwest which is more 'normal' for me although this was still oddly 'low'

Just trying to understand (within the limits of handholding) why the bullet/powder choice would
yield something like this. I do like the 'hole puncher' effect though!

1631019841449.png
 
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Agt. Smith

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Yes. I thought I noted that in the post but apparently the coffee has not kicked in yet
......................."I'll have to do some closer examination and testing but the blue grouping is factory Venom 115 FMJ
and the red grouping is 147."...................


Wasn't exactly sure...............:D

So................. the blue is 147 and the red is 115 - correct ?
 

Agt. Smith

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Got it. It's an interesting pair of groupings. Do you have any velocity data? If you did you could work up some sample loads in GRT and look for glaring differences.

I'm still fairly new to this - but I usually shoot 240 gn projectiles, when I switch to either 200 or even 215 (same POA) - everything changes given the same charge.

Original text/post corrected. Yes, I had the colors reversed in the original post.

Red = 115 FMJ Factory
Blue = 147FP reload
 

walter62

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Unfortunately, only this picture exists. No chrono data but now I'm curious
and will have to try more 'controlled' testing w/ chrono etc.

I *do* expect the 147's to be around 875fps from prior testing. I expect the
115's to be mid-1100's
 

walter62

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I hate to be that guy.... but your groups are way too all over the map to start thinking about load problems. If you want to determine those kind of issues I'd start closer and use a rest.

Not being a dick... you just have way too many variables shooting offhand at 40'
No dick implied ;)

Yes, I realize it's a completely uncontrolled test but it happened throughout the afternoon in different guns.
Certainly, using a rest and other good practices are called for.
 

Cuthbert Allgood

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Still, pretty decent for 40' off hand. [cheers]

Decent.... but still well short the capability of the gun. You aren't gonna figure out problems and really dial in a load that way. Thats my only point 👍

Edit: That's way short of what I expect my guns to do at 25 yards, so there are variables that need to get controlled
 

milktree

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... and I’m guessing the left/right difference is an idiosyncrasy of your grip a. How it interacts with recoil.
 

cockpitbob

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Wild-ass guess:
The longer dwell time in the barrel gives the gun longer to recoil up and right, moving the shots up and right.
I agree it's something along these lines. It may even be the way the gun's parts move and wiggle in response to a load that is more of a thump than snap.
 

TrashcanDan

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Dig out your book that came with your new 9mm and look for either-

"Firearm Manufacturer X recommends Bullet Company A in this grain weight"

Test target and what was used if it lists it.

I have a CZ that was dead on (to what the test target produced) with 115's.
I hate 115's.
Soon as I went to 147's, they started showing up in a different spot.
A click or two of the rear sight and it was right where I wanted it to be.
 

drgrant

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Dig out your book that came with your new 9mm and look for either-

"Firearm Manufacturer X recommends Bullet Company A in this grain weight"

Test target and what was used if it lists it.

I have a CZ that was dead on (to what the test target produced) with 115's.
I hate 115's.
Soon as I went to 147's, they started showing up in a different spot.
A click or two of the rear sight and it was right where I wanted it to be.

A lot of CZs get pissy with 147s but it depends on the bullet and who makes it.

IMHO gods bullet weight is 124gr in 9mm. Best compatibility, best cycling of guns, etc. Best groupings obtainable.
 

mac1911

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So I took out the new 9mm 147gn FP that I've been making and saw some interesting results.

>> Non-'scientific', NO benchrest (ie. handheld @ 40'). Same gun (P226), same POA (as best as I could)

I'll have to do some closer examination and testing but the RED grouping is factory Venom 115 FMJ
and the BLUE grouping is 147.

I almost never hit on the right/east side of the target but almost all of the 147 fell there.
The 115 FMJs were all clustered in the southwest which is more 'normal' for me although this was still oddly 'low'

Just trying to understand (within the limits of handholding) why the bullet/powder choice would
yield something like this. I do like the 'hole puncher' effect though!

View attachment 520351
Point of impact will drift from point of aim when ever tou change something
Bullet weight, charge weight, velocity ectect
Pick a load to zero your platform with and accept the point of impact change when you change or deviate from that load

i think even pistols are prone to accuracy nodes, barrel harmonics and the likes.
For now I would work on shooting one load until you snug those groups up a little more.
FWIW I shoot my 45acp better than my 9
 

Agt. Smith

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This may be totally unrelated to your situation - but I thought it an interesting similarity.

The picture on the right is from an air pistol site, and shows a similar set of two groups (one right, one SW). The guy said this happens often, and it takes him a while while shooting (without blinding apparatus) to settle down and get both eyes to 'comfortably' stay open. Once he does so , the group changes and stays consistent for the rest of the session.

Like I said, maybe nothing relevant - but hard to overlook the similarities.

1631019841449.jpg
 

milktree

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Heavier bullets tend to hit higher, even though they're at lower velocities. More recoil and more time in the barrel.

I had (have) a similar experience, but with slower bullets.

My .38/.357 lever gun shoots higher with 125gr .38 Spl. than with 158gr .357 Magnum.

The .38 Spl. rounds are lighter and a lot slower and have a lot less recoil, but hit higher.

It’s an 18” barrel, not a 4-1/2”, so it’s not a perfect equivalent, but it suggests speed is more significant than weight or recoil. (At least at 25-50 yards with a rifle)
 

mac1911

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So I took out the new 9mm 147gn FP that I've been making and saw some interesting results.

>> Non-'scientific', NO benchrest (ie. handheld @ 40'). Same gun (P226), same POA (as best as I could)

I'll have to do some closer examination and testing but the RED grouping is factory Venom 115 FMJ
and the BLUE grouping is 147.

I almost never hit on the right/east side of the target but almost all of the 147 fell there.
The 115 FMJs were all clustered in the southwest which is more 'normal' for me although this was still oddly 'low'

Just trying to understand (within the limits of handholding) why the bullet/powder choice would
yield something like this. I do like the 'hole puncher' effect though!

View attachment 520351
Vertical spread is larger than the horizontal.
This could be several things
Sight alignment and hold on target, trigger, breathing.
 
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This may be totally unrelated to your situation - but I thought it an interesting similarity.

The picture on the right is from an air pistol site, and shows a similar set of two groups (one right, one SW). The guy said this happens often, and it takes him a while while shooting (without blinding apparatus) to settle down and get both eyes to 'comfortably' stay open. Once he does so , the group changes and stays consistent for the rest of the session.

Like I said, maybe nothing relevant - but hard to overlook the similarities.

View attachment 521010

I picture on the right is interesting, but I don't think it relates to the OP's problem. I am pretty sure that the new picture is an enlarged photo of a 10 meter air pistol target. So the bullseye is 2 3/8", and the shooter here is capable of shooting .177 pellets so that many of them touch. The shooter also has an eye focus issue that can shift his groups about .75 inch at 10 meters. That shift is a big deal in air pistol competition, but you would need to shoot consistent groups around 2" to even notice such a small shift.

So I think the way the photo is enlarged makes it appear similar, but it is probably not related to the OP's issue.
 

Agt. Smith

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I picture on the right is interesting, but I don't think it relates to the OP's problem. I am pretty sure that the new picture is an enlarged photo of a 10 meter air pistol target. So the bullseye is 2 3/8", and the shooter here is capable of shooting .177 pellets so that many of them touch. The shooter also has an eye focus issue that can shift his groups about .75 inch at 10 meters. That shift is a big deal in air pistol competition, but you would need to shoot consistent groups around 2" to even notice such a small shift.

So I think the way the photo is enlarged makes it appear similar, but it is probably not related to the OP's issue.
Yes - it clearly is enlarged (no scale was intended), but the similarities in group location were still interesting.

Personally, I would tend to agree with the ".......Sight alignment and hold on target, trigger, breathing......." or something along those lines.

My patterns at 30' between 240gn and, say, 200gn with the same charge in 44 mag are usually pretty close (with a snub) - but depending on the shooter, recoil could be part of it.
 
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