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Interesting conversion for a 1911; NOT for the purist

allen-1

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An alternative to carrying cocked and locked...

http://www.gunsandgunsmiths.com/?p=4442

Developed by Slide and Cylinder, which I've personally heard good things about, this is kind of interesting. I don't know if I like it or not, but it certainly is "thinking outside the box". The hammer's down, the safety's up - you push the safety down, (normal ingrained habit), and the hammer pops up...
 
If carrying with the hammer back is scary, maybe it's time to put the guns away and grab your pajamas and some nice warm hot chocolate
2x agree. 100+ years and still going strong. why screw with it ? i carry a hammer fired c & l'd every day all day.
 
Yeah! That's the spirit! Why innovating? We can just keep using the 100 years old, dusty, cruise missile sized pistol. Yayyyy!
 
I'm not sure I get it.... WTF is the point? I literally can't think of a single thing this does other than give a false sense of security (I.e. promote careless firearm handling)

On a regular 1911, when the hammer is cocked and the safety is on, the gun can't be fired. If you forget or knock the safety off, it can be fired.

With this thing, when the safety is on the gun cannot be fired. If you forget and leave the safety offcor knock it off by accident, the hammer is in the cocked position and the weapon can be fired.

What the hell am I missing???
 
Actually it was developed for the Browning Hi Power originally. Since there was no tradtional DA Hi Power marketed in the US (the US made fiasco Browning BDM came on board in the early 90's and failed), during the Wundernine craze of the 1980's and 90's this was developed to provide a viable alternative to LE who were switching to traditional DA/SA metal high capacity 9mm's in droves and was an attempt to make the Hi Power competitive and marketable to that sector. You have to remember in many sectors for decades the only way that an SA auto could be carried in the minds of many was condition 3 (now known as Israeli style) Condition 1 still makes some people nervous especially police administrators. C&S were the people that got the rights or the authorization to do this modification (that part the sands of time of eroded some of the old brain cells, sorry).

I see that the C&S people have modified it for the 1911. Rather than totally trash the concept I would point out that there are many smaller law enforcement agencies where LEOs have to purchase their own guns and have a wide latitude in what they can carry, however there is still a very strong prejudice against the 1911 in Condition 1 in a lot of departments. This modification could provide a LEO who likes the M1911 but who works with a hammer down or hammerless dept a viable option, and could allow a 1911 be carried as a duty weapon.

DAEWOO had a similar set up on their DA/SA pistol as I recall in that instead of using the decocking lever, you could push the hammer down, and by releasing the safety, the gun would go into SA mode rather than the long first shot of traditional DA, gun looked a lot like an S&W 59/459 (I'm shooting from the hip here but that is how I remember it, I'm sure somebody will correct me if I'm wrong).
 
Yeah! That's the spirit! Why innovating? We can just keep using the 100 years old, dusty, cruise missile sized pistol. Yayyyy!

I don't care what handgun you own, at its core its based on 100 year old technology.

- - - Updated - - -

Actually it was developed for the Browning Hi Power originally. Since there was no tradtional DA Hi Power marketed in the US (the US made fiasco Browning BDM came on board in the early 90's and failed), during the Wundernine craze of the 1980's and 90's this was developed to provide a viable alternative to LE who were switching to traditional DA/SA metal high capacity 9mm's in droves and was an attempt to make the Hi Power competitive and marketable to that sector. You have to remember in many sectors for decades the only way that an SA auto could be carried in the minds of many was condition 3 (now known as Israeli style) Condition 1 still makes some people nervous especially police administrators. C&S were the people that got the rights or the authorization to do this modification (that part the sands of time of eroded some of the old brain cells, sorry).

I see that the C&S people have modified it for the 1911. Rather than totally trash the concept I would point out that there are many smaller law enforcement agencies where LEOs have to purchase their own guns and have a wide latitude in what they can carry, however there is still a very strong prejudice against the 1911 in Condition 1 in a lot of departments. This modification could provide a LEO who likes the M1911 but who works with a hammer down or hammerless dept a viable option, and could allow a 1911 be carried as a duty weapon.

DAEWOO had a similar set up on their DA/SA pistol as I recall in that instead of using the decocking lever, you could push the hammer down, and by releasing the safety, the gun would go into SA mode rather than the long first shot of traditional DA, gun looked a lot like an S&W 59/459 (I'm shooting from the hip here but that is how I remember it, I'm sure somebody will correct me if I'm wrong).

Daewoo, that's where I saw this.... The Pistol is pretty much a S&W 59. ( it shares magazines as well) we had a few up at the shop I spend my Saturdays at.

Decent build, still sill in my book
 
Seecamp had a ****y weird 1911 that did a DA first pull. I saw one once at FS.

Not sure what the point was, though.
 
Does this have Massad Ayoob's/hickock45's/nutnfancy's seal of approval?

If not... I'll hold off for awhile.
 
Seecamp had a ****y weird 1911 that did a DA first pull. I saw one once at FS.

Not sure what the point was, though.

Actually Colt marketed a 1911 the Double Eagle that looked very similar to the Seecamp Conversation. Seecamp was well known for this before their pocket guns.

Back in the day Condition 1 was considered unsafe or at least disconcerting. Jeff Cooper and IPSC did a lot to change perception but remember in the United States revolvers ruled the earth and the appeal of a traditional DA/SA pistol was it was more revolver like in function. In fact, the literatures that accompanied the original S&W 39 emphasized this.

True revolver like functionality was not really achieved until the Glock 17 so if you wanted to be cool, hip whatever you had a Seecamp Conversation for your 1911. There was another brand too the ODI Viking which was very much like the Seecamp but it was stainless. I've heard some were produced or none were produced except toolroom samples. They were however cataloged in Shooters Bible and Gun Digest. I know I've never seen one.
 
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I'm not modifying my gun. But as far as carrying a 1911 condition 1 you still need to release the safety if you have the safety engaged. So I don't really see the big deal. Same action whether the hammer is cocked without this device or not cocked with it.....you still have to release that safety.

The problem I have with this device as opposed to the 100 year old technology....I know the 100 year old technology works. Has worked for the 100 or so years on millions of 1911's. I'm not opposed to change but it needs to be tried and true. The 1911 has multiple safeties already and I think that's enough.

If someone wanted this feature on their gun I don't have an issue with it. But I like mine the way it is. And since I only have the one it is staying that way.

A gun is not safe or unsafe.....it is the operator that is safe or unsafe.
 
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I'm not modifying my gun. But as far as carrying a 1911 condition 1 you still need to release the safety if you have the safety engaged. So I don't really see the big deal. Same action whether the hammer is cocked without this device or not cocked with it.....you still have to release that safety.

The problem I have with this device as opposed to the 100 year old technology....I know the 100 year old technology works. Has worked for the 100 or so years on millions of 1911's. I'm not opposed to change but it needs to be tried and true. The 1911 has multiple safeties already and I think that's enough.

If someone wanted this feature on their gun I don't have an issue with it. But I like mine the way it is. And since I only have the one it is staying that way.

A gun is not safe or unsafe.....it is the operator that is safe or unsafe.

There are unsafe guns. Out of tune revolvers can have interesting results. But yeah Im good I rarely carry a 1911 mainly because mine are expensive and I don't want to lose them if I have to use them. But I carry a glock with one in the pipe all the time never scared that's going off.
 
So basically the safety is modified to act as a decocker, but instead of having a DA pull, the safety then cocks it so you have an SAO. Interesting concept, not going to modify any of mine to use it. I wonder if there is "chance" that lowering the hammer it gets loose and strikes the firing pin.
 
Like others I'm not really seeing the benefit. By the time you drawn and apply enough force on the safety to get the gun to cock you may as well carry with the hammer in the half cocked position and just pull the hammer back as you draw. That way you're not messing with your 1911 and possibly having a FTF due to it.
 
As someone new to 1911's, I do find the vid interesting. I would not install it on my gun for reasons already stated. I do not carry it, as it is the full sized model. I figure I would be dead before I could draw it from the holster anyway.
 
There are unsafe guns. Out of tune revolvers can have interesting results. But yeah Im good I rarely carry a 1911 mainly because mine are expensive and I don't want to lose them if I have to use them. But I carry a glock with one in the pipe all the time never scared that's going off.


I would agree a firearm in the condition you describe would be be unsafe to use and could cause injury or death to the user or others. But it is ultimately up to the owner /user to ensure the firearm is safe to use and/or carry prior to taking any action in the first place. A gun is a tool with moving mechanical parts. They go out of alignment at times. A safe responsible owner/user ensures the equipment is in good repair and working order at all times otherwise he/she is to not use it until it is repaired.

It all comes back on the owner/user. If the revolver you mention is in good repair and working the way it is intended there is nothing unsafe about it.

Now if you are referring to substandard manufacturing of firearms then yes, there could be an unsafe firearm due to design and or sloppy manufacturing. But that is a bit outside the scope of what I am referring to. Generally, firearms designed and manufactured by quality companies are most often going to be safe to handle, carry and use if done responsibly.
 
Like others I'm not really seeing the benefit. By the time you drawn and apply enough force on the safety to get the gun to cock you may as well carry with the hammer in the half cocked position and just pull the hammer back as you draw. That way you're not messing with your 1911 and possibly having a FTF due to it.

That's an even worse idea
 
Just carry with holster that cover the front of hammer then

My leather 1911 holsters all have thumb-break straps that do go UNDER the hammer. You grasp the handle as you hit the thumb-break, pull the pistol free of the holster with your thumb falling naturally to the safety lever, (pistol is cocked and locked). Left hand comes across to join, pistol comes up, as it starts to level safety is snapped off (trigger finger is still outside the guard, (pressed up on the frame/slide). Target acquired, finger on trigger, lock it down, press trigger...

More - or - less. I'm definitely not a wordsmith.

The key point in this being that the leather strap on the holster does go under the hammer as an additional mechanical safety to keep the gun in the holster and to keep the hammer from contacting the firing pin.
 
My leather 1911 holsters all have thumb-break straps that do go UNDER the hammer. You grasp the handle as you hit the thumb-break, pull the pistol free of the holster with your thumb falling naturally to the safety lever, (pistol is cocked and locked). Left hand comes across to join, pistol comes up, as it starts to level safety is snapped off (trigger finger is still outside the guard, (pressed up on the frame/slide). Target acquired, finger on trigger, lock it down, press trigger...

More - or - less. I'm definitely not a wordsmith.

The key point in this being that the leather strap on the holster does go under the hammer as an additional mechanical safety to keep the gun in the holster and to keep the hammer from contacting the firing pin.

That's how I carry in the shoulder holster. Some people hate the idea though.
 
My leather 1911 holsters all have thumb-break straps that do go UNDER the hammer. You grasp the handle as you hit the thumb-break, pull the pistol free of the holster with your thumb falling naturally to the safety lever, (pistol is cocked and locked). Left hand comes across to join, pistol comes up, as it starts to level safety is snapped off (trigger finger is still outside the guard, (pressed up on the frame/slide). Target acquired, finger on trigger, lock it down, press trigger... More - or - less. I'm definitely not a wordsmith. The key point in this being that the leather strap on the holster does go under the hammer as an additional mechanical safety to keep the gun in the holster and to keep the hammer from contacting the firing pin.

None of my 1911 holsters have straps. When was the last time that your 1911's hammer fell without you pulling the trigger?
 
All 1911 users should "test" the safety from time to time. With the gun empty, put it on safe, pull the trigger HARD and take it off safe. If the hammer drops, you have not done things quite right to get the nice two pound pull. Ask me how I know. Jack.
 
I had a Hi-Power with this SFS thing in it from the factory (my dad has the gun now). It's an interesting enough concept that worked just fine (i.e. without fail) every time, but I never actually carried it, and I never went to the trouble of getting used to it to the degree you'd want if you were planning on carrying it. I can see the appeal for people scared by the idea of carrying with the hammer back.
 
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