Interesting arguement against anti gunners

[Carcharodon]

I got bored working on a spreadsheet for work (just got back from a trip and trying to get caught up) and started messing around with some crime statistics. If you aren't already bored, bear with me. If you are, just scroll to the bottom.

As we all know, the US has higher gun murder rates than France, Germany and the UK, and the Brady Bunch love to bandy that about. What I was interested in, is what is our murder rate in relation to those countries without gun murders. So I looked up our overall rate - 16,204 murders according to Nation Masters most recent data; as well as our non-firearms related murders - 6,835. Then I looked up murder rates for the countries above, as well as population data for all four countries for per capita numbers.

Now step outside your comfort zone with me and make two very, very unlikely assumptions: 1)- That if we ban all guns, and collect all of the guns we can (read: legally owned guns), all gun murders will cease as soon as we do so; and 2) the people committing the 9,500 odd gun murders would not turn to another weapon and just give up. In essence, assume that if we ban guns, we would only have 6,835 murders a year.

The point is that even with that lower number, we still have a higher murder rate than the countries the Brady Bunch always mention. It leaves us with one murder in 44,485, Germany with one in 89,869, France with 1 in 59,093 and the UK with 1 in 51,123. Note also that even though the UK has the lowest number of firearm murders of all of them (14), it has the highest overall murder-rate, aside from the US. Next time you're arguing with a gun control advocate, you might want to ask if they care about murder, or just the way people get murdered.

In conclusion, we have a much higher rate of murder than other developed, First World nations, and that number is still higher if we only count non gun murders. The US has a crime problem it needs to deal with, but this proves that gun laws do nothing to prevent murder.

 

[gene]

Let me know when you put together something that refrences lawful gun owner murder rates less suicide

 

[goofycj7]

Let me know when you put together something that refrences lawful gun owner murder rates less suicide

http://webappa.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/mortrate10_sy.html
This will help get the numbers for suicide with and without guns, but not by lawful gun owners.

Many of the numbers you see out here for gun control include suicide, shooting by police and other issues gun control laws will not help.
Not perfect reports at the CDC but you do have some filtering ability.

 

[T3andme]

A little off the topic of what you wrote, but a very profound and gut-wrenching argument against gun control from the JPFO http://www.jpfo.org/index.htm. Here is the link for those who aren't familiar with them. You don't have to be Jewish to join their organization.

Our 2A rights protect 1A...and all the others.

 

[Palladin]

+1 Lisa

 

[Carcharodon]

These numbers only refer to murders; not accidents or legal intervention. Last Brady ad I saw had a number like 13,000 or so gun deaths annually, which excludes suicide but either includes accidents, or is an old number (from the early 90's, when gun killings were higher).

 

[SecondAmdFirst]

I just posted this in a new thread, but it is very helpful for pulling facts, so I'm posting here again

http://gunfacts.info/pdfs/gun-facts/5.1/gun-facts-5.1-print.pdf

 

[terraformer]

These numbers only refer to murders; not accidents or legal intervention. Last Brady ad I saw had a number like 13,000 or so gun deaths annually, which excludes suicide but either includes accidents, or is an old number (from the early 90's, when gun killings were higher).

All of their numbers include suicides. Their narrative falls apart without them.

 

[Carcharodon]

Sorry - I don't know if that +1 for lisa troll comment was for me, or if some of you misunderstood my point, but it's simply that our high murder rate has nothing to do with firearms, as can be proven by the statistics above (which all came from the reliable Nationmaster.com). In short, my point was that even if you banned guns, and made the ridiculous assumtion that the ban would reduce our murder rate, it would still be higher than the UK, France and Germany, which negates the whole arguement that our rights cause the high murder rate.

2A1St - that's an awesome resource, I actually read it a while ago, I think from your OP. I love statistics, and the fact that they are on our side.

 

[center442]

>Snip< Next time you're arguing with a gun control advocate, you might want to ask if they care about murder, or just the way people get murdered.

In conclusion, we have a much higher rate of murder than other developed, First World nations, and that number is still higher if we only count non gun murders. The US has a crime problem it needs to deal with, but this proves that gun laws do nothing to prevent murder.

I think you make a good point. Many anti-gun people seem to believe that if we remove the tool used in the act, that the act itself won't occur. Your numbers seem to indicate otherwise.

What's the sig line that someone here uses about "A sword is never a killer, it's a tool in a killer's hand?" Very true.

 

[JRyan]

I think you make a good point. Many anti-gun people seem to believe that if we remove the tool used in the act, that the act itself won't occur. Your numbers seem to indicate otherwise.

What's the sig line that someone here uses about "A sword is never a killer, it's a tool in a killer's hand?" Very true.

The anti's will argue the intent of the inanimate object as well. Anything to take the responsibility away from he person.

 

[Carcharodon]

Of course they will, but having reason on our side never hurts, and it gives the pols that back anti's a lot more explaining to do.

 

[T3andme]

Well, I work with many people who have done research. If I mention any statistics to them, the questions are fired at me range from: who did the study, who paid for the study, how was it done, which methods were used blah blah
So, the last time I was 1:2 with my anti-gun nut co-workers...the only thing that made them stop and consider why the general public should have the right to bear arms in 2009 was when I asked them if they believed private ownership of guns could have changed the outcome of the Holocaust. They stopped, reflected, stated that was an excellent point and then they walked away.