Insurance for firearms in MA

[Rockrivr1]

Piling on for Eastern Insurance. Very easy to deal with, flat rate for coverage and it's not just coverage for theft.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

That Terrier looks meaner to me than does a Pit Bull.

That was a stock photo, my westie (RIP) was much nicer looking.

 

[Buck F]

Are you sure it is not loss by theft or mysterious disappearance?

As to Amica - smooth sailing once I explained that a West Highland White Terrier is not another name for Pit Bull.

The standard ISO HO 00 03 04 91 Homeowners Form states:

COVERAGE C – Personal Property
Special Limits of Liability.
5. $1000 for loss by theft of jewelry, watches, furs,
precious and semi-precious stones.
6. $2000 for loss by theft of firearms.

The newer ISO HO 00 03 10 00 Form:
COVERAGE C – Personal Property
Special Limits of Liability.
e. $1,500 for loss by theft of jewelry, watches,
furs, precious and semiprecious stones.
f. $2,500 for loss by theft of firearms and related equipment.

Those are the two most commonly used ISO Homeowners forms, mysterious disappearance is not covered for either jewelry or firearms on the Standard policy.

Most homeowners insurance carriers offer some version of an optional enhanced coverage endorsement which expands the Special Limits of Liability above, here are the wordings from three of my main carriers:

Company 1:

e. $3,000 for loss by theft of jewelry, watches, furs, precious and semiprecious stones.
f. $3,000 for loss by theft of firearms and related equipment.

Company 2:

5. $5,000 for loss by theft, misplacing, or losing of jewelry, watches, furs, precious or semi-precious stones, not to exceed $2,000 on any one item.
6. $5,000 for loss by theft of firearms.

Company 3:

5. $5,000 for loss by theft, misplacing or losing of jewelry, watches, furs, precious and semi-precious stones.
6. $3,000 for loss by theft, misplacing or losing of firearms.

Misplacing/losing = mysterious disappearance, some include it others don't. We include enhanced coverage endorsements on all policies we sell. Anything beyond those enhanced coverage limits would involve scheduling the items on the Homeowners policy and require appraisals or receipts. Some companies offer Blanket valuable articles coverage for specified amounts, usually in the $5-$10k range, the two carriers I checked don't include firearms in that but I know of one other that does up to 10K I think. Typically the per item limit is 10%-20% of the blanket limit.

In my case, I rely on an enhanced coverage limit on my HO policy for my firearms if they're stolen. I split my firearms between two locations and three safes. Both locations have central station reporting burglar alarm systems, the secondary location has old but very strong/heavy bank safe that no one is getting into or moving as well as video monitoring and the alarm system. Worst case scenario for me is that perhaps a third of my guns get stolen at one time and my collection isn't extensive or overly expensive, maybe $15K total w/ the highest single value item around $2k and I could write a check to replace those items if needed (some of them are mistakes I wouldn't bother replacing).

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Misplacing/losing = mysterious disappearance, some include it others don't.

A decade or so I checked into a hotel room in Seattle only to have a message waiting - "I lost the diamond". The basket holding the diamond on the ring broke off. It was a scheduled item.

It was loss by losing, but nothing mysterious about what happened.

The insurance company (Beacon) sent us to a jeweler in Boston who promised (and delivered) on getting a stone meeting or exceeding every GIA spec, though I threw an extra $1K at after my wife picked out the stone to get a nicer one. The claim was not approved until the jeweler examined the setting and wrote a report stating there was no evidence of tool marks or intentional removal. We had to turn in the original GIA papers for the lost stone, but the company did a great job handling the claim. It was not held against us not was renewal denied, though we switched companies a few years later (and had no problems because of the claim history)

Obligatory firearms related content: The basket and the post used to solder it to the ring was cast, not forged or machined. Just like some cast guns, the metal showed a level of weakness at a critical point.

 

[Buck F]

A decade or so I checked into a hotel room in Seattle only to have a message waiting - "I lost the diamond". The basket holding the diamond on the ring broke off. It was a scheduled item.

It was loss by losing, but nothing mysterious about what happened.

The insurance company (Beacon) sent us to a jeweler in Boston to promised (and delivered) on getting a stone meeting or exceeding every GIA spec, though I threw an extra $1K at after my wife picked out the stone to get a nicer one. The claim was not approved until the jeweler examined the setting and wrote a report stating there was no evidence of tool marks or intentional removal. We had to turn in the original GIA papers for the lost stone, but the company did a great job handling the claim. It was not held against us not was renewal denied, though we switched companies a few years later (and had no problems because of the claim history)

I have never seen a policy non-renewed for a single claim unless there were extenuating circumstances i.e. fraud, the property was in grossly substandard condition, the homeowners did something colossally stupid/dangerous that caused the claim or wouldn't properly mitigate the risk afterwards, etc. Most of my carriers will not write a new policy if there has been a claim within the last 12-18 months but you can get an override from Underwriting if circumstances warrant. For example, if I have had a client for several years and they have one claim and I want to place them with another carrier, I can usually get an override,particularly if it's part of a larger account. Also, mitigation/prevention measures help. Otherwise usually after three to five years, depending on the nature of the claim, you won't have a problem writing it elsewhere. One of my carriers won't write anyone who's had an ice dam/pipe freeze claim within the past 5 years however if the client can provide evidence that they took appropriate mitigation steps (insulating/venting attic, water barrier, new roof). they'll consider it. If someone had a burglary and then got an alarm system, that helps. Multiple claims over a given period, even small ones, will usually get you nonrenewed. However, if one of my reps told someone not tp put in a $5K-$6K claim because they might get non-renewed, I'd fire them. It borders on the unethical. Sometimes people will ask if their rate will go up and if they stand to lose a Loss Free Credit we'll let them know the amount and they can decide if it's worth it. I have seen people insist on submitting a claim for $1,200 when they have a $1,000 deductible, I'd say that generally will hurt more than help in the long run if there are more serious claims after that, but someone who's going to put in that kind of claim will probably put in a claim for just about anything. They'll sometimes say things like "I finally get to use my insurance"; I'm not sorry to see them leave, if they do. IMO you insure your house for the significant losses, not to cover the $1,300 mountain bike that gets stolen from the garage. During Hurricane Irene we had a ton of people that lost power submit $500 Refrigerated Products claims, that was the only thing they claimed, no damage, only power outage, deductible didn't apply. The companies paid the claims, sent out $500 checks, they didn't bother sending adjusters out to verify the amounts. Interestingly, every single person had $500 in food in their freezer, they all said their neighbor Suzy Rottencrotch told them they get $500 free from the insurance company. I'm as big a foodie as anyone you know, if I had to clear out my two regrigerators/freezers I couldn't come up w/ $500 total and even if I could, I'd never submit a claim for just that. Within a few years years we had a few non-renewals for claims that people had after that where that one stupid little claim ended up being their second or sometimes third claim. Most of the companies re-wrote their policies so that Refrigerated Products coverage was only available in the context of a larger claim, subject to deductible, not a simple power outage w/ no damage to the house.

 

[ScottS]

Blah, blah, blah, "Insurance companies whine about paying claims," blah

Either shit's covered, or it's not. If it's not covered, fine. But if it's a covered loss, and I pay the premium to cover it (whether it's a $1300 mountain bike or a freezer full of food), then pay the loss and stop whining.

Insurance companies (and agents) are always quick to point out exemptions that work in their favor ("Oh, sorry. You needed to read the fine print."). Works both ways.

 

[citoriguy]

It comes down to what nature the collection is and what you're protecting it against. If you have $10k-$20K in multiple assorted modern guns, none of them exceeding a grand or two in value, then the homeowners policy ought to be fine (scheduling as needed). If you're scheduling multiple firearms over $10K, if you have guns w/ an antique or collectible value or have a collection in the high five or into six figures, then perhaps a specialty insurance policy is in order. Also, what are you protecting against? If theft is the primary concern and you have a substantial value collection, then get a specialty insurance policy. If you think your collection is relatively safe from theft and are more worried about the house burning down, the homeowners policy is probably fine. Given what I have, where my firearms are stored and the security I have at the locations I keep my firearms, my homeowners policy is more than adequate for my needs. I also have clients that have specialty policies for the larger collections/collectibles as well they should.

My insurance company has a relatively low threshold of $10,000 for firearms, jewelry, and art. The jewelry and firearms alone were worth scheduling.

 

[Buck F]

Either shit's covered, or it's not. If it's not covered, fine. But if it's a covered loss, and I pay the premium to cover it (whether it's a $1300 mountain bike or a freezer full of food), then pay the loss and stop whining.

Insurance companies (and agents) are always quick to point out exemptions that work in their favor ("Oh, sorry. You needed to read the fine print."). Works both ways.

They'll pay the covered loss every time, I tell my clients that. There are no exemptions that work out in our favor on a covered loss and yes, it is a contract that includes limits, deductibles, conditions and exclusions and as such, you should probably have an idea what's in it if you sign up for it. No one's forcing anyone to buy homeowners insurance. Don't like it? Pay cash for your house and self-insure. When I was talking about a $1,300 stolen mountain bike I was factoring in a $1,000 deductible for a total claim payout of $300. If that's what you're looking to collect on every time some piddly thing happens, don't whine when they non-renew you after you do that a couple/few times. I could give a shit less if someone puts small claims for everything, it doesn't affect me as much as it will affect them when they get non-renewed and they pay twice as much in the FAIR Plan because no one will write them on a voluntary basis for the next couple/few years. The company will always pay the covered loss, that doesn't mean it's a bright idea to claim every single one of the small ones just because you're paying a premium.

 

[AHM]

Being an instructor and firearms professional, I'd caution against using language like "covers all losses". No policy covers all losses; all policies have limits, deductibles and exclusions which apply. You could be setting yourself up for an E&O, not to mention providing insurance advice without a license.

Is "providing insurance advice without a license" more, or less, serious
than "practicing law without a license"?

(Asking for a Senator).

I'm sure you're technically correct, but people say "IANAL" because people actually get prosecuted for practicing law without a license. Has anyone ever been prosecuted for "providing insurance advice without a license?"

I'm sure it would suck big-time if OP suffered a loss,
and he felt Len had mislead him to purchase an inadequate policy.
But...

On the one hand,
I'm sure an Insurance Commission has better things to do
(e.g., maintain consistently urbane manicures)
than to truck around and hassle Len Q. Public
for expressing an opinion about the relative
quality and features of different policies and firms,
when no losses have occurred,
and there's no suspicion of some hinky kickback scheme
between agents and businessmen in related businesses.
And...

On the other hand,
if they did try and jack up @Len-2A Training,
I'm sure he could get Fauxcahontas in his corner.
She's death on Big Business,
and as a connected pol and a Very Important Harvard Law Professor,
she could use the influence of her law practice to...on second thought;
Len maybe you'd better delete your note.

(But seriously @buckfarack, thanks for stepping up).

 

[Buck F]

Is "providing insurance advice without a license" more, or less, serious
than "practicing law without a license"?

(Asking for a Senator).




.

I have no idea nor do I care which is more or less serious

What is practicing law other than giving advice? Appearing in court is a minuscule amount of what a lawyer actually does on any given day. Many lawyers never see the inside of a courtroom and only give advice. If you give someone advice and present yourself as a professional or the person getting the advice can reasonably assume/believe they’re getting advice from a professional, that person giving the advice is setting themself up to get sanctioned if they’re not licensed. There is a whole section on the MA Division of Insurance listing people who sold insurance/accepted payment for placing insurance without a license to do so. There was a case a while back where one of the National direct writers, I think it was Liberty Mutual, had Insurance kiosks in car dealerships where the dealers would tell car buyers what they needed, guided them, and then they’d get a kickback. Realtors have been known to guide/steer people on homeowners insurance and get a kickback. If as the guy who’s selling homeowners insurance, I give someone advice on the home buying process, I tell them they have nothing to worry about if they do XYZ and a couple years later XYZ ends up losing them money and they can document what I told them (email, perhaps?) then I have an E&O on my hands and will get sanctioned by the real estate .gov authorities. If a guy who owns a gun shop, is an instructor and teaches a law class tells someone they should buy xyz firearms insurance because it “covers everything” and they end up having a loss that’s not covered, and that someone pulls an email or a post in a public gun forum out of his ass, I’d suggest that firearms professional might get his peepee slapped. As an FYI, no competent insurance agent or lawyer anywhere will utter the words “covers everything’.

Google “Seinfeld Donna Chang episode” if you don’t believe me...

 

[Rob Boudrie]

What is practicing law other than giving advice?

The question is where is the line crossed? Are you giving out legal advice without a license if you tell your kid not to drink and drive? After all, you are suggesting a course of action based on the law.

 

[Buck F]

The question is where is the line crossed? Are you giving out legal advice without a license if you tell your kid not to drink and drive? After all, you are suggesting a course of action based on the law.

I’ll refer you to my statement above: “...or the person getting the advice can reasonably assume/believe they’re getting advice from a professional”. I think that covers the parent/kid or friendly conversation argument. I think my scenario about the gun shop owner/firearms instructor/firearms law teacher making blanket statements about firearms insurance is pretty clear as well.

 

[Buck F]

Is "providing insurance advice without a license" more, or less, serious
than "practicing law without a license"?

(Asking for a Senator).




I'm sure it would suck big-time if OP suffered a loss,
and he felt Len had mislead him to purchase an inadequate policy.
But...

On the one hand,
I'm sure an Insurance Commission has better things to do
(e.g., maintain consistently urbane manicures)
than to truck around and hassle Len Q. Public
for expressing an opinion about the relative
quality and features of different policies and firms,
when no losses have occurred,
and there's no suspicion of some hinky kickback scheme
between agents and businessmen in related businesses.
And...

On the other hand,
if they did try and jack up @Len-2A Training,
I'm sure he could get Fauxcahontas in his corner.
She's death on Big Business,
and as a connected pol and a Very Important Harvard Law Professor,
she could use the influence of her law practice to...on second thought;
Len maybe you'd better delete your note.

(But seriously @buckfarack, thanks for stepping up).

I just read the rest of your post and clicked on the link. Looks like I took things a little too seriously and missed your intent. Thanks, good post. Funny.

Btw, I don’t think the commissioner of insurance would be out to jack up Len. The guy who thought he had coverage and had an uncovered loss might throw Len under the bus and if he got an aggressive lawyer and the loss was big enough, they might make a stink about it, that’s when the DOI might have something to say or Lens E&O might get brought into it.

 

[Len-2A Training]

I’ll refer you to my statement above: “...or the person getting the advice can reasonably assume/believe they’re getting advice from a professional”. I think that covers the parent/kid or friendly conversation argument. I think my scenario about the gun shop owner/firearms instructor/firearms law teacher making blanket statements about firearms insurance is pretty clear as well.

I never portrayed myself as a professional wrt insurance, merely a customer who has used 3 of the 4 options I pointed out above. I read Eastern's policy (some years ago) and questioned some things in their policy as well as Collectible Insurance's policy. I'm merely advocating that people check those sources and see what works for them, but in my not professional opinion, Eastern has broader coverage than most if not all the other options I mentioned and was cheaper assuming you meet the minimum threshold for value. Firearms instructors don't learn about insurance from our instructor courses, so no expertise is claimed.

As a related note: NRA tried real hard to get instructors to sell their self-defense "insurance", I'm sure many hopped on board. I sat thru their online sales pitch, and even though I'd make a commission if I sold their insurance I didn't feel good about their product nor about selling stuff to students. All I sell is the NRA canned classes with my own spin for added value plus my own creation of explaining Mass gun laws in a seminar.

Since you got all high and mighty about my comments and questioned my knowledge, it's telling that you totally ignored my dissertation on my not so favorable experiences with 4 insurance companies and some agents. And for what it is worth, I recall the use of the term "rider" (not endorsement) back many years ago (I'm talking the 1960s-early 1970s) when my Parents insured some scheduled jewelry as well as when I did the same. Terminology may well have changed over the years just like "executor/executrix" was replaced by "personal representative" in recent years.

 

[CatSnoutSoup]

With current ammo prices I'm guessing some Eastern/HFI folks are counting their stockpile and figuring that optional $15k of ammo coverage has become a $75 necessity.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

As a related note: NRA tried real hard to get instructors to sell their self-defense "insurance", I'm sure many hopped on board. I sat thru their online sales pitch, and even though I'd make a commission if I sold their insurance I didn't feel good about their product nor about selling stuff to students. All I sell is the NRA canned classes with my own spin for added value plus my own creation of explaining Mass gun laws in a seminar.

It would be fun to ask about claims made vs occurrence based policy with the NRA. My guess is claims made would leave more room for an NRA commission.

 

[Broc]

In case anyone is interested... I just got Eastern a few weeks ago.

At first they tried to apply a deductible of $1K and a policy increase of 10% because they now classify MA as "wind and hale" ... anyway, it took the woman 3 days but they removed that junk.

I didn't even have to ask her to remove it, when she sent me the quote she said she didn't think that was right and was proactive about it.

Anyway, just letting you all know.

 

[apander]

The standard ISO HO 00 03 04 91 Homeowners Form states:

COVERAGE C – Personal Property
Special Limits of Liability.
5. $1000 for loss by theft of jewelry, watches, furs,
precious and semi-precious stones.
6. $2000 for loss by theft of firearms.

The newer ISO HO 00 03 10 00 Form:
COVERAGE C – Personal Property
Special Limits of Liability.
e. $1,500 for loss by theft of jewelry, watches,
furs, precious and semiprecious stones.
f. $2,500 for loss by theft of firearms and related equipment.

Those are the two most commonly used ISO Homeowners forms, mysterious disappearance is not covered for either jewelry or firearms on the Standard policy.

Most homeowners insurance carriers offer some version of an optional enhanced coverage endorsement which expands the Special Limits of Liability above, here are the wordings from three of my main carriers:

Company 1:

e. $3,000 for loss by theft of jewelry, watches, furs, precious and semiprecious stones.
f. $3,000 for loss by theft of firearms and related equipment.

Company 2:

5. $5,000 for loss by theft, misplacing, or losing of jewelry, watches, furs, precious or semi-precious stones, not to exceed $2,000 on any one item.
6. $5,000 for loss by theft of firearms.

Company 3:

5. $5,000 for loss by theft, misplacing or losing of jewelry, watches, furs, precious and semi-precious stones.
6. $3,000 for loss by theft, misplacing or losing of firearms.

Misplacing/losing = mysterious disappearance, some include it others don't. We include enhanced coverage endorsements on all policies we sell. Anything beyond those enhanced coverage limits would involve scheduling the items on the Homeowners policy and require appraisals or receipts. Some companies offer Blanket valuable articles coverage for specified amounts, usually in the $5-$10k range, the two carriers I checked don't include firearms in that but I know of one other that does up to 10K I think. Typically the per item limit is 10%-20% of the blanket limit.

In my case, I rely on an enhanced coverage limit on my HO policy for my firearms if they're stolen. I split my firearms between two locations and three safes. Both locations have central station reporting burglar alarm systems, the secondary location has old but very strong/heavy bank safe that no one is getting into or moving as well as video monitoring and the alarm system. Worst case scenario for me is that perhaps a third of my guns get stolen at one time and my collection isn't extensive or overly expensive, maybe $15K total w/ the highest single value item around $2k and I could write a check to replace those items if needed (some of them are mistakes I wouldn't bother replacing).

Do they cover firearms lost in a Boating accident?

 

[PappyM3]

Has anybody used Collectibles Insurance Services?

Collectibles Insurance Services | Collect Insure

CIS offers the best collectibles insurance service for whatever you consider valuable- vintage guns, sports cards, comic books, and more!

collectinsure.com

Apparently there’s no need to itemize your guns and send serials unless you’re claiming a loss (or unless a single item is over $30k or something).

Folks on Reddit have had good experiences with them, but was curious if real, non-Reddit, people have used them.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Has anybody used Collectibles Insurance Services?

Collectibles Insurance Services | Collect Insure

CIS offers the best collectibles insurance service for whatever you consider valuable- vintage guns, sports cards, comic books, and more!

collectinsure.com

Apparently there’s no need to itemize your guns and send serials unless you’re claiming a loss (or unless a single item is over $30k or something).

Folks on Reddit have had good experiences with them, but was curious if real, non-Reddit, people have used them.

I had them some years ago. Read carefully, unless they changed, they were strictly for "collectibles". I asked them outright about guns you carried (not covered) and guns you took to the range regularly (not covered). They said that if it was a gun you only took to the range a couple times/year that it would likely be covered.

So my assessment is that they are good for museums, not so much for shooters. I went to Eastern Insurance and never looked back.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Consider that homeowners insurance does not have a limit on fire or water damage claims for firearms but generally does for theft or mysterious disappeance.

Something to consider when determining the features of your ordnance lockers (safes)

 

[MAJoe]

I had them some years ago. Read carefully, unless they changed, they were strictly for "collectibles". I asked them outright about guns you carried (not covered) and guns you took to the range regularly (not covered). They said that if it was a gun you only took to the range a couple times/year that it would likely be covered.

So my assessment is that they are good for museums, not so much for shooters. I went to Eastern Insurance and never looked back.

Or judging by all the safe queens for sale here, probably fine for most of NES too

 

[greencobra]

OP, listen to Len and Rob. They have the knowledge.

we'll have it also when we're pushin' some years behind us....