Immigration Overhaul: Traitorous or Genius?

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Dadstoys

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There will always be a small percentage of illegals, nothing can be solved 100%, but there are much better ways to deal with it than wasting billions building a wall and wasting several billions more maintaining it and even more billions arresting people.
I've heard several people postulate that the main reason we are having the problems we are having is because we began to actually enforce our borders. I've been told it's a nightmare to cross now, so people are staying instead of the last 200 years of seasonal migration North and South. The only reason I'm not in knock down, drag out fights every day is because if they fight with me, it multiplies the problems on a huge scale.

Before 9/11, most illegals came here, worked a few months then went back home. I would see the history, every 2-3 years a guy would have a cluster of apprehensions, then 2-3 years later another. Basically, when the money he earned ran out, he came back. That simply isn't what's happening today. Keep in mind, back in Bush's 1st term, they were saying there were over 20 million illegals in the US. The number somehow shrank to less than 11 million during Big O's terms, almost by magic.

I know for a fact that the border is pretty secure today, I've seen it go from old wild west crazy on a scale none of you would believe, to a somewhat busy border. The numbers don't lie, we caught over a million a year with a 1/4 of the staff we have today. Last year I think we barely broke 400k.
 

Tim_McD

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A secure border has an effectiveness rating, as do deportation, as does elimination of benefits, as does enforcement of labor laws. No need to get hung up on one approach; do ALL of them, ALL the time and prosecute those who violate the laws.

Personally, I would be very aggressive and public with the prosecution of employers who hire illegal labor. From manufacturing (remember Michael Bianco Inc. in New Bedford?) to restaurants to local contractors / landscapers - if you want to cut corners and maximise profits by using illegals, be ready to pay the price.

The use of a "wall" is effective (link to Congressional Research Svc Report Apr-2016) and it will provide jobs as well as security. The elimination of benefits is a nice thought, but largely a pipe-dream because many of the illegals have at least one anchor baby.

President Trump is finding that, exactly like Obamacare, there is a lack of political will amongst Republicans and Democrats - who both benefit from cheap labor and voting blocs (respectively).
 
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Also a woman who is 7 months or more pregnant cannot be deported.
Found that little gem out yesterday.

My immigration plan would be under one page.
GTFO
Get in line like the rest of the people who did it the right way and earned it.
Zero public assistance.
Anyone caught knowingly hiring illegals, kiss off your business and do some time in the graybar hotel.
Immediately and permanently cut of all federal funding to sanctuary states and cities, not one nickel.
Commit a crime in this country and we return you over the boarder via catapult.
I like your plan, especially the catapult part.
 

Spanz

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We don't need no stinking wall.

we need FRICKING MOAT

with crocodiles.
 

fencer

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I didn't read the entire thread. Only got through about 2 pages. But I gotta ask... how about we start with just enforcing the laws already in place. The term is "illegal" immigrant.
To my thinking, if you started your residence here by breaking the law, you should be sent back to where you came from. And it really shouldn't be that hard to figure out who these people are. People have to prove citizenship to get a job, or the right to work here. Why should they be able to collect money from the taxpayers through welfare etc? Why should they be able to get a drivers license? They broke the law to get here and continue to break it by staying here. Kick them out and send them back, and make them pay for it. If they can't pay for it, harvest an organ and send them back with one kidney.
Not fit to donate a kidney? Make them work on a chain gang, under armed guard, at minimum wage until they can buy the ticket and make them pay for their own food and housing. Not fit to donate an organ or work? Grind them up for fertilizer or pig feed.
Some may think this is to harsh, but it would fix illegal immigration in a week.
 
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This is good. We ALREADY HAVE THE LAWS. JUST ENFORCE THEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I would personally pay a couple hundred to buy seats on a bus or train to Mexico. I'm sure most people would do the same. There is ALREADY, a LEGAL MECHANISM for people to COME TO THIS COUNTRY LEGALLY. Have them follow those steps.
 
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I like the idea of hundreds of roaming, randomly located snipers complete with the latest and greatest tracking capabilities. After a few hundred border jumpers are surgically removed and piled high for front page photo ops, I don't think there would be too many wanting to attempt that crossing, then again, who knows. It also gainfully employs many 0317,11X and 18X soldiers looking for a busy post service career.
 

headednorth

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I like the idea of hundreds of roaming, randomly located snipers complete with the latest and greatest tracking capabilities. After a few hundred border jumpers are surgically removed and piled high for front page photo ops, I don't think there would be too many wanting to attempt that crossing, then again, who knows. It also gainfully employs many 0317,11X and 18X soldiers looking for a busy post service career.
Theres plenty of roaming random people with guns on the other side that would be more than happy to stack bodies themselves. What are you going to do when ranchers and BP guys and random citizens are stacked up?
 

ochmude

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If I remember correctly you're in the Border Patrol. What are your recommendations?
Policy change is required to actually deport people from countries other than Mexico. Mexicans apprehended at the border are deported same as always because it's logistically simple to do so. You drive them to the station, process them, and drive them back to the nearest border crossing to be repatriated to Mexico. I've seen it happen in about 2 hours, from arrest in the U.S. to setting foot in Mexico again. Right now, with few exceptions, people from countries other than Mexico who are apprehended at the border are processed and released on their own recognizance because there is physically not enough room in detention facilities to house them while flight arrangements are made to deport them. Basically, they are crossing faster than they can be flown out.

So you, as a Mexican/Central American/South American/or whatever, just destroy all your identification documents, go over/under/around the fence, walk right up to the nearest Border Patrol Agent, and you say "Soy Guatemalteco y tengo diecisiete anos". Stick to that story and you WILL be released probably in less than 48 hours. No proof of your actual age or nationality is required because there's no mechanism in place to do any real vetting, nor is there any time to do any real vetting because of lawsuits and Flores v. Reno compliance requirements. If you really want to gum up the works, just keep repeating that you're afraid of home, although you'll be released whether you claim fear or not. As such, Guatemalans are basically pouring over the border in record numbers. Mexicans are kinda rare.

EDIT: I should say policy change is required to efficiently deport people from countries other than Mexico. It can and does happen, but not easily. You get released on your own recognizance with a hearing date some time in the future. You then disappear and don't show up for that hearing. Eventually, if you miss enough hearing dates, you might be declared an immigration fugitive and would be deportable if ICE ever comes in contact with you. But if you keep your head down, that's unlikely. You can also establish ties to the community and start a big family of U.S. Citizen children so that you can petition for an adjustment of status if you do ever get caught.
 
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So, going to your link, I see this:

No “line” is available for the vast majority of unauthorized immigrants.
Immigration to the United States on a temporary or permanent basis is generally limited to three different routes: employment, family reunification, or humanitarian protection. While the U.S. immigration system is generous, each of these possibilities is highly regulated and subject to numerical limitations and eligibility requirements. Most unauthorized immigrants do not have the necessary family or employment relationships and often cannot access humanitarian protection, such as refugee or asylum status.
So, in other words, they are by definition "unauthorized", and do not meet the criteria. Well, that is the policy. That still leaves room for those who are actually needy, such as the listed ones with family, humanitarian, refugee, or asylum needs. Sounds like a working system to me.
 

headednorth

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Policy change is required to actually deport people from countries other than Mexico. Mexicans apprehended at the border are deported same as always because it's logistically simple to do so. You drive them to the station, process them, and drive them back to the nearest border crossing to be repatriated to Mexico. I've seen it happen in about 2 hours, from arrest in the U.S. to setting foot in Mexico again. Right now, with few exceptions, people from countries other than Mexico who are apprehended at the border are processed and released on their own recognizance because there is physically not enough room in detention facilities to house them while flight arrangements are made to deport them. Basically, they are crossing faster than they can be flown out.

So you, as a Mexican/Central American/South American/or whatever, just destroy all your identification documents, go over/under/around the fence, walk right up to the nearest Border Patrol Agent, and you say "Soy Guatemalteco y tengo diecisiete anos". Stick to that story and you WILL be released probably in less than 48 hours. No proof of your actual age or nationality is required because there's no mechanism in place to do any real vetting, nor is there any time to do any real vetting because of lawsuits and Flores v. Reno compliance requirements. If you really want to gum up the works, just keep repeating that you're afraid of home, although you'll be released whether you claim fear or not. As such, Guatemalans are basically pouring over the border in record numbers. Mexicans are kinda rare.

EDIT: I should say policy change is required to efficiently deport people from countries other than Mexico. It can and does happen, but not easily. You get released on your own recognizance with a hearing date some time in the future. You then disappear and don't show up for that hearing. Eventually, if you miss enough hearing dates, you might be declared an immigration fugitive and would be deportable if ICE ever comes in contact with you. But if you keep your head down, that's unlikely. You can also establish ties to the community and start a big family of U.S. Citizen children so that you can petition for an adjustment of status if you do ever get caught.
Why cant they just give anyone a ride back to Mexico if thats where they crossed and let the Mexicans sort them out? Why is the US responsible for flying a Guatemalan back to Guatemala?
 

wahsben

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Policy change is required to actually deport people from countries other than Mexico. Mexicans apprehended at the border are deported same as always because it's logistically simple to do so. You drive them to the station, process them, and drive them back to the nearest border crossing to be repatriated to Mexico. I've seen it happen in about 2 hours, from arrest in the U.S. to setting foot in Mexico again. Right now, with few exceptions, people from countries other than Mexico who are apprehended at the border are processed and released on their own recognizance because there is physically not enough room in detention facilities to house them while flight arrangements are made to deport them. Basically, they are crossing faster than they can be flown out.

So you, as a Mexican/Central American/South American/or whatever, just destroy all your identification documents, go over/under/around the fence, walk right up to the nearest Border Patrol Agent, and you say "Soy Guatemalteco y tengo diecisiete anos". Stick to that story and you WILL be released probably in less than 48 hours. No proof of your actual age or nationality is required because there's no mechanism in place to do any real vetting, nor is there any time to do any real vetting because of lawsuits and Flores v. Reno compliance requirements. If you really want to gum up the works, just keep repeating that you're afraid of home, although you'll be released whether you claim fear or not. As such, Guatemalans are basically pouring over the border in record numbers. Mexicans are kinda rare.

EDIT: I should say policy change is required to efficiently deport people from countries other than Mexico. It can and does happen, but not easily. You get released on your own recognizance with a hearing date some time in the future. You then disappear and don't show up for that hearing. Eventually, if you miss enough hearing dates, you might be declared an immigration fugitive and would be deportable if ICE ever comes in contact with you. But if you keep your head down, that's unlikely. You can also establish ties to the community and start a big family of U.S. Citizen children so that you can petition for an adjustment of status if you do ever get caught.
Thanks for the reply. It sounds like an even bigger mess than I know it is. If the wall was effective in keeping people from even getting across the border wouldn't this stop those problems you mention? I do realize that the wall most likely won't be effective or at least not effective enough. I would think that offering no benefits and holding employers accountable for who they hire would be more effective than the wall but it's hard to say for sure since all the political posturing will continue and not much if anything is likely to get done.
 

ochmude

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Why cant they just give anyone a ride back to Mexico if thats where they crossed and let the Mexicans sort them out? Why is the US responsible for flying a Guatemalan back to Guatemala?
Deportation to any particular country requires the consent of the receiving country. When someone is deported to Mexico, from the Mexican perspective that individual is being admitted into their country just like anyone else passing through the port of entry. Mexico can deny admission as is the right of any sovereign nation.

There is provision within the Code of Federal Regulations which allows the U.S. to deport people back to Mexico if that's where they crossed from, but arrangements would have to be made with Mexico for it to actually happen.
 

rsj

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Meanwhile...

100 Iranian Christians Waiting to Enter U.S. Could Be Sent Back to Iran This Week
100 Iranian Christians Waiting to Enter U.S. Could Be Sent Back to Iran This Week
U.S. government action could send 100 mostly Christian Iranians stranded in Vienna back to Iran this week, where their return during the harsh government crackdown on dissidents could target them for further persecution, human rights activists warn.

The deportation threat looms despite the Trump administration's and Congress's vocal support for protesters in Iran, who are waging the strongest nationwide uprising against the government in Tehran in eight years.

"These deportations, during a human-rights crackdown in Iran no less, could be a death sentence for these persecuted Christians and other minorities," Nina Shea, an international humans rights lawyer who directs the Hudson Institute’s Center for Religious Freedom, told the Washington Free Beacon. "They would undermine the important statements against Iran’s repression by President Trump, Vice President Pence and U.N. Ambassador [Nikki Haley]."

"The administration needs to act fast to stop this travesty," she said, noting that the U.S. government could give the refugees notices denying them entry to the U.S. as early as this week. This would leave the Austrians with little choice but to send them back to Iran.
 

headednorth

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Deportation to any particular country requires the consent of the receiving country. When someone is deported to Mexico, from the Mexican perspective that individual is being admitted into their country just like anyone else passing through the port of entry. Mexico can deny admission as is the right of any sovereign nation.

There is provision within the Code of Federal Regulations which allows the U.S. to deport people back to Mexico if that's where they crossed from, but arrangements would have to be made with Mexico for it to actually happen.
Is it possible for a persons native country to refuse to accept them back? I would think Mexico wants people going to the US, finding work and sending money back to Mexico. Wouldnt it make sense to the Mexican government to refuse all Mexicans caught in the US, knowing theyd be released and end up staying in the US?
Do other countries use this system to get rid of their riff-raff? Venezuela or Panama or wherever send all their career criminals or mental defectives to the US and refuses to accept them if they are caught?
 
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Is it possible for a persons native country to refuse to accept them back? I would think Mexico wants people going to the US, finding work and sending money back to Mexico. Wouldnt it make sense to the Mexican government to refuse all Mexicans caught in the US, knowing theyd be released and end up staying in the US?
Do other countries use this system to get rid of their riff-raff? Venezuela or Panama or wherever send all their career criminals or mental defectives to the US and refuses to accept them if they are caught?
They have muddied the waters, but to absolutely say no would be a diplomatic nightmare. Remember what we 'could' do: Tax remittances, stop sending foreign aid, among other things. To slow the process down, they stopped us from voluntary returns through all ports of entry. Back in the day, we had a literal turnstile. Drive a bus/van up and walk them through. Today, they only 'allow' returns through major ports of entry.

Granted, we were not absolutely straight with that turnstile. A lot of OTMs were returned that way and they figured it out. ;/
 
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Thanks for the reply. It sounds like an even bigger mess than I know it is. If the wall was effective in keeping people from even getting across the border wouldn't this stop those problems you mention? I do realize that the wall most likely won't be effective or at least not effective enough. I would think that offering no benefits and holding employers accountable for who they hire would be more effective than the wall but it's hard to say for sure since all the political posturing will continue and not much if anything is likely to get done.
The problem with this is who is doing the 'enforcing'? Immigration enforcement isn't 'sexy'. Drugs are bad, m'kay? Everyone wants dem drug busts. They took away Border Patrol interior stations back under Clinton, after they didn't build the wall/border enforcement that Reagan bargained for with the '86 IRCA. Do you start to see the picture?

Today, we have a 1/2 dozen federal anti drug agencies, but the only people who really 'enforce' immigration law is Border Patrol. ICE will grab guys in jail, but that leaves a lot of numbers on the table.
 

mibro

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Unfortunately, this is true. "The Wall" has become symbolic, regardless of the actual value it would contribute to immigration enforcement and border security.
Thanks for the reality check from the border, always appreciated.

I'll confess I agree with you. I know The Wall is impractical and will be a waste of money. But I want President Trump to build it anyway because it will make all the right people cry - again - and it's no worse than all the other stuff the gubmint wastes our money on. At least The Wall won't get anyone killed in the pursuit of corporate profits unlike our endless sandbox adventures.
 

wahsben

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The problem with this is who is doing the 'enforcing'? Immigration enforcement isn't 'sexy'. Drugs are bad, m'kay? Everyone wants dem drug busts. They took away Border Patrol interior stations back under Clinton, after they didn't build the wall/border enforcement that Reagan bargained for with the '86 IRCA. Do you start to see the picture?

Today, we have a 1/2 dozen federal anti drug agencies, but the only people who really 'enforce' immigration law is Border Patrol. ICE will grab guys in jail, but that leaves a lot of numbers on the table.
Govt. would have to decide who has the responsibility to enforce it and make sure that the other agencies and people involved go along with it and abide by the law and the rules but as I'm sure you're well aware that is unlikely to happen. Too many people benefit from uncertainty and turmoil.
 

ochmude

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Thanks for the reply. It sounds like an even bigger mess than I know it is. If the wall was effective in keeping people from even getting across the border wouldn't this stop those problems you mention? I do realize that the wall most likely won't be effective or at least not effective enough. I would think that offering no benefits and holding employers accountable for who they hire would be more effective than the wall but it's hard to say for sure since all the political posturing will continue and not much if anything is likely to get done.
The wall would slow down and channelize illegal crossings, most likely. But the situation right now is practically like it was with the "feet dry" era with Cubans. They just have to get onto U.S. soil and they're essentially free. The one definite plus of the wall that I must admit I hadn't thought of personally is that, once built, it cannot be easily removed by a new administration. Policy changes like the wind.
 
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