Immigrants and self defense

[Atlantis]

I have a good friend who is here on a work visa, and on track to receive his green card by end of next year. He called me asking my thoughts on what the outcome would be if he used a firearm in self defense in his home.

Apparently a good friend of ours received a package with a brick of heroin, and no idea why/how it was delivered to their house. They immediately notified police but are concerned for their safety going forward. They are both citizens (all parties here are residents of RI) and will be getting their licenses. So in light of all this, my friend has realized "better to have and not need than need and not have" and is wondering what his options are.

My first response to him was "realistically, if you are in a situation where lethal force was actually justified, then the legal ramifications of using it shouldn't matter, surviving should matter more". I stand by that, but it speaks more to a situation where you have possession of lethal force, and are deciding whether or not to use it.

So what type of trouble would he be looking at? Very law abiding kind of guy, I really don't suspect he would ever have a reason to be searched in his home. Does he just get deported? Prison?

The specific question is "What happens to a lawful immigrant who uses a firearm in clearly justified self defense".

The only routes I know of that could lead to possession for him would be a P80 build or have his girlfriend get her license. In either scenario, the question would be what would happen if HE used the firearm in his own home in self defense.

 

[jct61765]

Why are you asking on an open forum? Wouldn't you be better off asking a lawyer? All you are going to get here are people's opinions.

 

[Atlantis]

Why are you asking on an open forum? Wouldn't you be better off asking a lawyer? All you are going to get here are people's opinions.

Yeah my OP should have included the part where I told him IANAL and he should consult his immigration laywers directly with this question.

However, I also figured why not ask the brain trust and see if they know any examples of such situations and what the outcome was.

 

[Bonesinium]

Apparently a good friend of ours received a package with a brick of heroin, and no idea why/how it was delivered to their house. They immediately notified police but are concerned for their safety going forward.

 

[bigben111435]

Apparently a good friend of ours received a package with a brick of heroin, and no idea why/how it was delivered to their house. They immediately notified police but are concerned for their safety going forward. They are both citizens (all parties here are residents of RI) and will be getting their licenses. So in light of all this, my friend has realized "better to have and not need than need and not have" and is wondering what his options

Hahahaha. Best thing would be to not tell you friends and post on the internet. But thats just me spitballing.

 

[Asaltweapon]

Nothing has stopped the illegal illegals from shooting people.

If he uses it he loses everything then will have to re-enter illegally. Just like the others.

 

[citoriguy]

You’re not required to be a US citizen to apply for or receive a firearms license that I know of. I can’t imagine it helps his case for permanent residency or citizenship to get charged with unlawful possession of a firearm, especially in New England.

That said, IANAL.

 

[Atlantis]

Hahahaha. Best thing would be to not tell you friends and post on the internet. But thats just me spitballing.

Yeah, I get it. I could probably have left out the details but I think its a good illustration of why its a relevant. The reality is I doubt he ever has reason to use lethal force in self defense in his own home, but I also know that our friends never expected to have a random package like that show up on their doorstep. Just goes to show you that life doesn't always work out by the numbers, "things happen".

Nothing has stopped the illegal illegals from shooting people.

If he uses it he loses everything then will have to re-enter illegally. Just like the others.

He would not, he would attempt to continue his career from the country of his citizenship, provided he made it back. We are talking white collar "accountant" type person here. And that was one of my jokes to him, if you were an illegal immigrant you'd have no problems at all.

You’re not required to be a US citizen to apply for or receive a firearms license that I know of. I can’t imagine it helps his case for permanent residency or citizenship to get charged with unlawful possession of a firearm, especially in New England.

That said, IANAL.

Is this a RI specific comment? I know a little bit of Mass law but have virtually no experience with the laws in RI. And yes, I recommended he consider a crossbow or baseball bat etc until he gets his green card and can do it properly.

 

[daekken]

Once he gets his green card, he should be good to go unless RI is wonky. A friend of mine is a green card holder and owns ARs, etc. in NH. 4473 often results in a delay, but it's legal.

MA will issue non-res LTC to green card holders, but all are restricted to competition only. As such, I imagine MA will do resident LTC for green card holders as well. So, any issues he runs into would be RI specific, a state about which I cannot speak from experience.

 

[bigben111435]

Yeah, I get it. I could probably have left out the details but I think its a good illustration of why its a relevant. The reality is I doubt he ever has reason to use lethal force in self defense in his own home, but I also know that our friends never expected to have a random package like that show up on their doorstep. Just goes to show you that life doesn't always work out by the numbers "things happen."

Yup, nowadays it is like every imaginable situation is happening. And it is just commonplace at this point no matter how "bizarre ".

 

[vcman]

I have a good friend who is here on a work visa, and on track to receive his green card by end of next year. He called me asking my thoughts on what the outcome would be if he used a firearm in self defense in his home.

Apparently a good friend of ours received a package with a brick of heroin, and no idea why/how it was delivered to their house. They immediately notified police but are concerned for their safety going forward. They are both citizens (all parties here are residents of RI) and will be getting their licenses. So in light of all this, my friend has realized "better to have and not need than need and not have" and is wondering what his options are.

My first response to him was "realistically, if you are in a situation where lethal force was actually justified, then the legal ramifications of using it shouldn't matter, surviving should matter more". I stand by that, but it speaks more to a situation where you have possession of lethal force, and are deciding whether or not to use it.

So what type of trouble would he be looking at? Very law abiding kind of guy, I really don't suspect he would ever have a reason to be searched in his home. Does he just get deported? Prison?

The specific question is "What happens to a lawful immigrant who uses a firearm in clearly justified self defense".

The only routes I know of that could lead to possession for him would be a P80 build or have his girlfriend get her license. In either scenario, the question would be what would happen if HE used the firearm in his own home in self defense.

well tell your friend to get a paintball gun and load it up with solid rubber balls, it good enough for home protection, shooting some one with it if they enter your home is better than hand to hand combat. if he ever shoot some one with a real gun it will just made it harder to for him to keep that green card, and may not be able to become a naturalize us citizen at all. us immigration dont mess around ,if given half a chance to kick some one out of the country they will, trust me on that.

 

[308rifleman]

Two cans of bear mace would be my choice if I were in your friend's position. Keep one can in a common area within easy reach, like the kitchen, and the other in the master bedroom. Any involvement with firearms, especially in this part of the country, is guaranteed to make the news. His employer finds out and he will almost certainly be terminated on the spot. Since it is a work visa, he will be reported to ICE and face the very real danger of immediate deportation. His chances of getting a "green card" will be zero.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

The specific question is "What happens to a lawful immigrant who uses a firearm in clearly justified self defense".

It depends on how much and what quality legal representation (s)he can afford.

 

[swatgig]

I have a good friend who is here on a work visa, and on track to receive his green card by end of next year.

The specific question is "What happens to a lawful immigrant who uses a firearm in clearly justified self defense".

He's not an immigrant until he receives his green card. Under a work visa, he's a non-immigrant.

Under Mass law, he can't get an FID or LTC, and his possession of a gun would subject him to jail. Under Federal Law, he "has been admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa", and can be sent to Club Fed under 18 USC 922

 

[ISOTOX]

I'm betting this will not be enough pop corn.....

 

[mothybee]

Only illegals are allowed to have guns in Mass. It's those law abiding people we have to worry about.

 

[Deleted member 67409]

Once he gets his green card, he should be good to go unless RI is wonky. A friend of mine is a green card holder and owns ARs, etc. in NH. 4473 often results in a delay, but it's legal.

MA will issue non-res LTC to green card holders, but all are restricted to competition only. As such, I imagine MA will do resident LTC for green card holders as well. So, any issues he runs into would be RI specific, a state about which I cannot speak from experience.

Rhode Island has no suitability requirement comparable to Mass. RI doesn't equate being a suitable permit-holder with ownership. There's relatively defined ways to actually lose guns in RI - basically become some sort of prohibited person or involved in a domestic case. There's some pro-permit holder case law in RI, if someone needs me to dredge up a cite. None of it involved non-citizens.

There is the RIAG permits that are "may issue." I have no idea how this scenario would play out if someone had an AG permit because those are handled personally by the Attorney General himself.

Best answer is he would want to talk to a gun lawyer and an immigration lawyer. I'm not aware of a RI practitioner that handles both areas of law regularly.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Under Federal Law, he "has been admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa", and can be sent to Club Fed under 18 USC 922

1. Under MA law he can get an Alien FID

2. He can get a temporary LTC from the FRB if he does not live in the US. Back when Jason Guida was running the operation, the definition of Alien used (to qualify for the temporary LTC) is a non-citizen not living in the US. Of course, the logistics in getting the MA course while out of the is tricky, unless they can afford to fly out an instructor for the US. I am familiar with training requests from foreigners with the phrase "cost is no object" in the inquiry (but the request was not honored)

3. Non-immigrant aliens can possess firearms for hunting, competition or trade show purposes provided they have an approved form 6NIA (https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/f...-importation-firearms-and-ammunition/download)

 

[KBCraig]

Under Federal Law, he "has been admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa", and can be sent to Club Fed under 18 USC 922

But that is "except as provided in subsection (y)(2)",and subsection (y)(2) says the ban doesn't apply if he has a hunting license lawfully issued in the United States.

 

[greencobra]

and can be sent to Club Fed under 18 USC

they got a 200 yd range at this club fed?

 

[shootymacshootface]

If he wipes the gun off then drops it before running away like the rest of them, he won't have anything to worry about.

 

[AHM]

Under Federal Law, he "has been admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa", and can be sent to Club Fed under 18 USC 922

But that is "except as provided in subsection (y)(2)",and subsection (y)(2) says the ban doesn't apply if he has a hunting license lawfully issued in the United States.

Spoiler: Does this count?

 

[Atlantis]

well tell your friend to get a paintball gun and load it up with solid rubber balls

I like this one alot actually. Good advice!

It depends on how much and what quality legal representation (s)he can afford.

This is really the truest answer, in the sense that I phrased the question as "what would be the outcome". But I think the legal question I am asking is "is there any ground to mount a legal defense in this situation or is it a swift one way ticket to prison"

He's not an immigrant until he receives his green card. Under a work visa, he's a non-immigrant.

Under Mass law, he can't get an FID or LTC, and his possession of a gun would subject him to jail. Under Federal Law, he "has been admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa", and can be sent to Club Fed under 18 USC 922

But that is "except as provided in subsection (y)(2)",and subsection (y)(2) says the ban doesn't apply if he has a hunting license lawfully issued in the United States.

This is an interesting line of thought. So in theory in RI he could legally posses a pistol for "hunting" provided he is in compliance with RI law and has a hunting license.

At the end of the day I think his best bet is doing everything fully above board and using "non firearm" methods of self defense if the situation ever arose.

 

[Deleted member 67409]

I like this one alot actually. Good advice!

This is really the truest answer, in the sense that I phrased the question as "what would be the outcome". But I think the legal question I am asking is "is there any ground to mount a legal defense in this situation or is it a swift one way ticket to prison"

This is an interesting line of thought. So in theory in RI he could legally posses a pistol for "hunting" provided he is in compliance with RI law and has a hunting license.

At the end of the day I think his best bet is doing everything fully above board and using "non firearm" methods of self defense if the situation ever arose.

I know the square root of jack shit about immigration law but I bet the hunting license exemption is more applicable to foreigners who are on a hunting trip in the country. Like someone who visits the US to hunt.

 

[Darksideblues42]

well tell your friend to get a paintball gun and load it up with solid rubber balls, it good enough for home protection, shooting some one with it if they enter your home is better than hand to hand combat. if he ever shoot some one with a real gun it will just made it harder to for him to keep that green card, and may not be able to become a naturalize us citizen at all. us immigration dont mess around ,if given half a chance to kick some one out of the country they will, trust me on that.

Or a combination of pepper balls and arborist marking paint. (It doesn't wash off)

 

[greencobra]

alright, i may be mis-remembering this so don't jump on me. for 25-30 years, my best friend was an english chap here on a green card involved with medical research for a hospital in town. he had a fid card. this is going way back, early 80's or there about when fid's mattered. later on, he had gotten a ltc also. this was issued for "target/hunting" and was at the time when they were the laminated version before the plastic, electronic one we have now. anyway, this ltc was printed on a pastel blue or green colored paper whereas the normal ones were white paper. my buddy is long dead so i can't ask him but does anyone else remember this type of ltc from back in olden times for foreign green carders? or am i starting rumors and misinforming with my old, failing memory?

 

[Broc]

Yeah my OP should have included the part where I told him IANAL and he should consult his immigration laywers directly with this question.

However, I also figured why not ask the brain trust and see if they know any examples of such situations and what the outcome was.

And immigration lawyers wont be better than anything you find here. Except he might tell his friend to kiss his Greencard goodbye.

Losing the Greencard might be the least of his worries.

Let's start with the most basic question:

How will he legally own a gun before having a Greencard?

He could buy blackpowder guns. I dont know the RI requirements to own BP or Pyrodex.

Have a couple of BP revolvers ready. Put the hammer in between the primers for safety and go all cowboy on whoever breaks into your place.

 

[shootymacshootface]

Have a couple of BP revolvers ready. Put the hammer in between the primers for safety and go all cowboy on whoever breaks into your place.

That sounds really smoky.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

I know the square root of jack shit about immigration law but I bet the hunting license exemption is more applicable to foreigners who are on a hunting trip in the country. Like someone who visits the US to hunt.

The law states has a hunting license. It does not even have to be valid for use in the state(s) the immigrant is visiting.

 

[KBCraig]

The law states has a hunting license. It does not even have to be valid for use in the state(s) the immigrant is visiting.

It also doesn't limit gun ownership to the kind of guns required for hunting.