IDPA vs USPSA

I love watching great shooters.... I aspire to be as good as many on this board. I've seen a fair bunch and it's motivating... and sometimes humiliating. I really enjoy the great shooters being humble, helpful and down to earth. I hope someday to be able pass on what I hope to learn to others that are entering the sport. On the other hand I'm ok with some trash talking.... although it's not my style as there's always someone better somewhere.
 
I was just watching Shooting USA and Jim Scoutin was talking about this lone pin shooter from Northeast Shooters that shoots a single action revolver that is slowly sweeping the nation with his speed and raw talent. He is so amazing that he only shoots small local matches. He is anything but humble and will humiliate anyone he competes against. Anything is fair game to this lone soldier. An interview with Jerry Mickulek after the segment showed that Jerry was now thinking about retiring from shooting because he's afraid to be humiliated by the most dynamic bowling pin shooter the world has ever seen.
 
I was just watching Shooting USA and Jim Scoutin was talking about this lone pin shooter from Northeast Shooters that shoots a single action revolver that is slowly sweeping the nation with his speed and raw talent. He is so amazing that he only shoots small local matches. He is anything but humble and will humiliate anyone he competes against. Anything is fair game to this lone soldier. An interview with Jerry Mickulek after the segment showed that Jerry was now thinking about retiring from shooting because he's afraid to be humiliated by the most dynamic bowling pin shooter the world has ever seen.

[laugh2][rofl]
 
Don't worry Dan, I live for competition of all kinds and I'm not afraid to lose. There's nothing more fun than to blow your own horn and force a bunch of angry guys into some kind of contest. Guns, archery, golf, doesn't matter to me. I can lose like a gent, but first I have to drag some poor, dumb, SOB into the fire first. If it takes trash-talking online, so be it. You gotta love the internet.
SA John

Ok, i'll be the sucker who gets drawn into this, and since I won't be at NH to shoot pins, I'll offer the challenge first-
Bass River, Sunday, USPSA, shoot any kind of gun you want, deal with what Supermoto was talking about with the draw, reloads, transitions, etc.

$100 per overall percentage point difference in standings between you and me. Shoot any kind of revolver, and I'll spot you 10% ($1000) to start.
 
Do they rent special shoes at Bowling Pin matches that you have to wear while on the line? ---Knob Creek

I think all the equipment that is required would actually be shooting related.

I suppose those predisposed to role playing could show up with a butt hanging out his mouth, wearing bowling shoes, a bright yellow over sized short sleeve acrylic shirt with "The King Pins" (with crossed pins) on the back and their name on the front, carrying a small towel in one hand and all their shooting gear in a bowling ball bag. But some might consider that just a little bit silly. [grin]

Although, personally I think that would be very very funny, especially if the guy could shoot.


Respectfully,

jkelly
 
I think all the equipment that is required would actually be shooting related.

I suppose those predisposed to role playing could show up with a butt hanging out his mouth, wearing bowling shoes, a bright yellow over sized short sleeve acrylic shirt with "The King Pins" (with crossed pins) on the back and their name on the front, carrying a small towel in one hand and all their shooting gear in a bowling ball bag. But some might consider that just a little bit silly. [grin]




Respectfully,

jkelly

LOL

hey, wait...Lose the cigerette, make shirt red white and black, trade the bowling shoes for cleats, and that discribes me[wink]
 
LOL

hey, wait...Lose the cigerette, make shirt red white and black, trade the bowling shoes for cleats, and that discribes me[wink]

And Me too... HAHA

I like Matt's challenge. Wouldn't it be funny if this guy came out and beat him and all of us. Then we truly would be humiliated esp. after losing to a single action revolver.
 
And Me too... HAHA

I like Matt's challenge. Wouldn't it be funny if this guy came out and beat him and all of us. Then we truly would be humiliated esp. after losing to a single action revolver.

Ok. I don't know any of the contenders but the stack is against the SA J no matter how good he is. He'll still be reloading by the time Matt finishes the stage... unless of course SA J buys a guy with 20+ round mags. [wink]
 
Ok. I don't know any of the contenders but the stack is against the SA J no matter how good he is. He'll still be reloading by the time Matt finishes the stage... unless of course SA J buys a guy with 20+ round mags. [wink]

Or wears 5 revos on his person! Now that would be fun to see. [wink]
 
Ok, i'll be the sucker who gets drawn into this, and since I won't be at NH to shoot pins, I'll offer the challenge first-
Bass River, Sunday, USPSA, shoot any kind of gun you want, deal with what Supermoto was talking about with the draw, reloads, transitions, etc.

$100 per overall percentage point difference in standings between you and me. Shoot any kind of revolver, and I'll spot you 10% ($1000) to start.


I'll take the bet if I can design the stages. Starting in box A engage T1, move to box B, engage T2, 5 strings. oh yeah, box B will be 150 yards away. 10 point procedural for each time you throw up[puke2] [smile].
 
But the "diss" was on CAS; not USPSA. So, Matt should be in his "Frito Bandito" outfit and the grudge match should be at Mansfield.
 
Ok, i'll be the sucker who gets drawn into this, and since I won't be at NH to shoot pins, I'll offer the challenge first-
Bass River, Sunday, USPSA, shoot any kind of gun you want, deal with what Supermoto was talking about with the draw, reloads, transitions, etc.

$100 per overall percentage point difference in standings between you and me. Shoot any kind of revolver, and I'll spot you 10% ($1000) to start.

Let's make sure we keep the equipment within the current USPSA rules. I am not the match director and have only the say of a RO and club member but I am sure that since this is a USPSA match it will need to be USPSA legal gear and firearms. OK?

Head to head at Wallum or MRA for a steel match would be interesting too [devil2][pot]
 
And Me too... HAHA

I like Matt's challenge. Wouldn't it be funny if this guy came out and beat him and all of us. Then we truly would be humiliated esp. after losing to a single action revolver.


Not likely Pete, want to put $100 on Matt, any game, any pistol?[wink]
Hell, I'll even put $20 on you![thinking]

I think we let SA John educate us at A7 with pin side match, better yet PLATE match![shocked]. (also give him a chance to show us his prowess in the rest of the match)[dance]

The man said
"I live for competition of all kinds and I'm not afraid to lose. There's nothing more fun than to blow your own horn and force a bunch of angry guys into some kind of contest. Guns, archery, golf, doesn't matter to me. I can lose like a gent, but first I have to drag some poor, dumb, SOB into the fire first. If it takes trash-talking online, so be it. You gotta love the internet. One other thought: I'm going to move this topic to a new post titled "Big Head" so that it will be less cumbersome to navigate around in. I'm all messed up trying to attribute quotes to different partys. And maybe this thing we're doing is starting to go a little stale. But if you are still interested I'll write one last note under Big Head and then I have to split to catch a plane at Logan. Will be gone till late Friday, and I'll be out of computer reach. So don't think I'm ignoring you."
SA John
 
For all you guys who want a shot at me, I'll be more than happy to oblige. At this very moment I don't have time to write a bunch of stuff I wanted to tell you all. Pleasant stuff, no vitriol. I got down to Florida last night and got a call from the wife as soon as the plane allowed cellphones on. One of her "bleeping" horses twisted a gut and died. Her favorite horse. (it's always the favorite) Had to jump back on a jet and get back here earlier today to bury the sonofabitch before the big birds started to circle. Now she's in the other room watch Ugly Betty or some such crap and I have to go in there and comfort my wife and try to pretend that I actually give a shit about the horse. I'm a dog man - horses are big, dumb and dangerous.

We can set some kind of match up that will make you all very happy. I know it will please me.
Will be at Pioneer Saturday and MRA Sunday. If you see some nitwit with an SA revolver at Pioneer Saturday, don't be shy. I'd like to meet you. Same goes at MRA. Gotta run now and think of something sensitive to say to the wife. Burying bleeping horses and lying to the wife is starting to feel like work.

Back soon, SA John

P.S. Thanks Derek, I took your suggestion on checking that box. Maybe it will help.
 
Damn, I think I need to shoot at MRA on Sunday instead of Westfield. I need to see this first hand. Matt are you bringing your digital camcorder on Sunday if you go to MRA so you can post videos? I need to concentrate on USPSA with Area 7 next month so I prefer to shoot there. I can't make the match on Saturday so I now need to decide where to shoot on Sunday. ERRRRRRRR


SA John are you DEFINITELY going to MRA on Sunday for the steel match???
 
Pistol Pete: It's about midnight. The wife is finally sleeping. The horse is very finally sleeping. Now I'm trying to load some ammo in the man room. If I am not at MRA on Sunday then I am deader than the stinking horse. I actually like MRA better than Pioneer because it is much closer to me and because I like Whitey, whom I met, and Rich. They both have the proper sense of humor and appreciation for the absurd. I was there only once, a complete stranger, and they let me shoot my silly cowboy gun. Wasn't sure they would go for it, but they did. We all had a chuckle. I had planned to only shoot a 1911 at steel to try and get better at that game. It is very new to me. My only real competitive shooting experience in the past 2 years has been bowling pins. Like mentioned earlier if you've read all the crap related to me, I shot PPC in the late 70s when that game was going on. Since then, nothing but the afore mentioned pins. But along with the 1911, (at MRA) I'll make sure I have a pair of SAs too. I do have heavy pin loads already loaded but can only put together enough of the lighter (dare I say CAS level) rounds to shoot Pioneer Saturday and maybe one or two stages at MRA. I had not planned for single-action plates at MRA this weekend. Still I should have enough to try at least one run for a demo. I would not attempt shooting heavy lead loads indoors on plates. While I don't expect MRA to set up pin tables just for me, or us, (you too) I will also bring along my SA pin gun with its proper heavy ammo. Who knows? You should keep in mind that to watch me shoot plates with an SA is going to look tame and slow by comparison to the auto guns shooting that same day. Still, if you know anything about times as they relate to single-action shooting, the last time I managed a run of 25 plates in 68 seconds including 3 reloads of cylinder and one extra round at the end to make 25. That's taking the gun out of action a total of 4 times during the string. I had no misses. I think that's pretty good for the style of gun and would love to see any CAS shooter beat it. Now my only real claim to notoriety is a weird ability to shoot bowling pins off a deep, regulation Second Chance table with an SA gun shooting very heavy loads against all revolver types. I don't even practice that much but can consitantly clear the table in under 5 seconds without being pushed. When spurred by someone next to me as in head to head, I can, and have, shot 4.0 - 4.2 seconds. That's from buzzer to last shot. More times than not in the small area that I have shot in, I manage to beat most of the auto pistol shooters too. I fully understand that I'm not beating world class pin shooters. I can only shoot against the people that show up. (The big reason this challenge thing intrigues me is I may never get a chance like this again to see what I can do against the best shooters in the area.) So, at least I can meet you on Sunday, show you maybe one round with an SA on the plates and then we can have fun with the real guns on steel. I'm only average with the auto pistol but did manage a run of 25 seconds last time on 25 targets. (185 gr Nosler HP @ 850 fps) My S&W 1911 really likes the Nosler 185.

Pistol Pete, you seem like a good sort and I suspect you have the ability to laugh at yourself - I sure do. All this online chest-bumping nonsense is very good fun and nothing said to me bothers my a wit. If you (anyone) take this crap seriously you need more help than I can supply. So all of you can continue with the insults and barbs. I only ask that you be clever and funny. Acid is okay, but do it with pinach. If you're going to poison-pen somebody have the good grace to do a proper job of it. I get bored easily if it doesn't sing.

Hope to see you Sunday - PM me if you want to know anything else, this thread is probably killing the readers off by now. Just like the damn horse. Now where did I park that tractor with the bucket? If you got horses, you'll need a bucket-loader soon enough.

SA John
 
Sorry about the horse. That is never an easy experience. Well, I'm glad you can laugh at yourself and find humor on the internet. a 5 second pin table isn't all that impressive to be totally honest. From the way you were talking earlier I would have thought you would be in the mid 2 second range. I can run a bill drill (6 shots in the A-zone of an IPSC target with a draw from the holster) on average of 1.8 seconds. It kind of puts things in perspective when shooting 5 targets without a draw in 5 seconds. I understand the pins are a lot smaller than an A zone on a USPSA target but still. 25 seconds on 25 targets is a good starting point but I would be pissed if I cleared it in 1/2 that time. I would think I could clear it (depending on difficulty of steel) on average around 12-14 seconds max. Plus, there are a lot of guys on this forum that are a lot faster than I am.

I'm still debating on where to shoot on Sunday so maybe I'll see you at MRA.

Pete
 
Pete-

Steel is always good practice in my opinion. Hope to see you there. I want to drool over your STI.

Besides I gotta see some of these 12-14 second 25 steel runs your bangin out! [wink] You'd be giving Paul, HDG and the legendary 10MM Dave a good run for their $$ [pot] (I like this little stir the pot guy)

I'll do my best to try to beat you guys with my open revo and my limited gun.
 
Pistol Pete: You are correct on the times being slow compared to steel or target shooting. And pins are very easy to at least hit and tip over. (I'm assuming you've shot pins on a regulation table) But hitting them and hitting them perfectly with a very heavily recoiling gun is a very different problem than shooting a tight group for speed with target loads. At least it is in my experience and I have not seen anyone shoot pins off a regulation table faster than 4 seconds. I'm sure there are guys out there who can do it, I just haven't seen them.

I don't know what a bill drill is. But try this exercise some time when you have a moment. With a .45acp, or 10mm, fire 5 rounds of ammo that has a PF of at least 200 (I shoot 215) at a round spot no more than 3" in diameter from 30 feet. The official Second Chance distance is 25 feet, but all the clubs I shoot at shoot from 30. (I measured) Place all of your shots cleanly inside the 3" dot from the ready position in under 5 seconds. NO MISSES allowed. To miss is to lose. I can do that 9 times out of 10 with a box-stock 1911 - no comp, no trigger job, no changes to the gun. May not sound like much but you'd be shocked at the number of shooters who can not even approach that. It's the recoil that messes people up. Never tried it with a 9 or a .40 cal, but those guns are useless for real pins anyway. Not enough push. With the SA revolver I can do the same thing for time but I have an even bigger advantage because I'm throwing a much bigger and faster slug. (255 @ 1050 - Pf 268) It makes placement a little more forgiving. My fastest time with that load is 4.0. I always feel it's a sucker's bet to go against a man with an auto who really doesn't know his stuff. They look at my single-action and laugh. But they don't laugh for long. A good shooter should beat me, but there are not many really good shooters around. If that sounds arrogant it is not my intent, it's simply my observation. Anyone interested should try that little drill before sounding off. Of course, if you have lots of real pin experience you know what I'm talking about. Problem is today not many guys shoot pins and (I think) they get a false sense of confidence by blazing around the current courses of fire in the various IDPA, steel games that are currently so popular. I happen to think they are cool too - the steel plate stuff. These shooters win or do well and they have achieved something of worth. I'm just now shooting the plate matches and have nothing but admiration for the guys who do it well. It's a very different game from pins and it takes a different set of skills. What I have noticed at the several clubs that I shoot pins at is when one of these successful steel shooters shows up, and there is always a few early in the season, they inevitably fail badly by shooting too fast and laying down pins on the deck. A pin on the deck is the kiss-of-death. Once these nice gentleman (they really are nice) gets into a little trouble it always goes down hill quickly from there. At the end of the match they are not even a factor. I've seen this many, many times including the last shoot at Chester when one of the best revolver men in the area showed up and was not even a factor. Too many toppled pins without clean hits. He was vvvvery fast, even reloaded his run-dry revolver once on the clock, all for not. I don't think it is proper form to use others' names online so I won't do it. But this good fellow with the revolver will probably win tomorrow at Pioneer or come damn close. I have shot with him many times and can not even approach what he can do on plates with a DA gun. He's a friend and a fine fellow but his gun skills don't transfer to pins. Interesting stuff. I hope if he reads this he won't be too pissed. Probably not, the guy seems to made in one solid piece.

Hope you make it to MRA Sunday, Pistol Pete. (like in Maravitch?)

SA John
 
I may be showing up at MRA I'm still undecided. Matt if I go I'll bring my Brazos limited gun for you to check out and if you want to use it you are more than welcome. I still feel that USPSA shooters are hands down the most skilled because they have way more to deal with. We have to learn to shoot on the move, while doing reloads, planning how to shoot a stage, shoot around objects etc and shoot at various distances all while trying to do this in the quickest timeframe. I've shot pins before and it's not easy for sure but doesn't require as many skills to do as USPSA. With USPSA we are running fairly high power factors, obviously not as high as pins but higher than most other sports. As for your drill 5 rounds in 5 seconds in a 3" circle at 30 feet is quite easy to be totally honest.
 
I may be showing up at MRA I'm still undecided. Matt if I go I'll bring my Brazos limited gun for you to check out and if you want to use it you are more than welcome. I still feel that USPSA shooters are hands down the most skilled because they have way more to deal with. We have to learn to shoot on the move, while doing reloads, planning how to shoot a stage, shoot around objects etc and shoot at various distances all while trying to do this in the quickest timeframe. I've shot pins before and it's not easy for sure but doesn't require as many skills to do as USPSA. With USPSA we are running fairly high power factors, obviously not as high as pins but higher than most other sports. As for your drill 5 rounds in 5 seconds in a 3" circle at 30 feet is quite easy to be totally honest.


This started as an IDPA vs USPSA thread and has gone so far off the track it is unbelievable but I need to answer the above.

I have seen shooters that cross over into all sports. I have found the fastest USPSA shooters honed their skills shooting steel or pins. The speed and accuracy needed to be successful in those sports one round at a time make them take charge in USPSA after they learn the sport.

Take any of the top USPSA shooters in any division and ask them if they shoot Steel Challenge or Bianchi.

Pete, you need to go to the Wallum Lake Walls of Steel match and see what it is like to shoot the 25 plus plates consistently fast and accurate. It is not a 21round mag spray and pray fest it is a 10 round mag max.

Top shooters in any sport will always be top shooters. Many very talented shooters contribute here but there is no one sport that can state their shooters are as you stated, the most skilled.

One shooter I can think of that is basically a steel shooter shot a Harvard match with no sights on his gun and finished in the top two or three. [wink]
 
Time for my 2 cents, I have seen this guy shoot a SA revo, he was at the last knockdown steel match at MRA. SA John handles a SA revo pretty well. He would definaitly (spelling ) hold his own shooting against another SA revo. With that said, I have shot with and watched some the best pin shoters in the country including a WORLD record 5 table run by one of our own Northeastshooters .com Member. (names will be left out so I do not embarrass them ) but you know who you are. this same member runs 2.5 second runs with a revolver. I have seen another one of the members here shoot 1.9, 2.2 second runs. I have even run some 2.8 second runs when the feeling is good. To make claims that you are the best and you would leave others in the dust is a very bold statement by anyone. Statements like that just make yourself look small and open yourself to the kind of thread that we have going on here. It is easy to be the best when the rest sucks. Again, just my 2 cents
 
Time for my 2 cents, I have seen this guy shoot a SA revo, he was at the last knockdown steel match at MRA. SA John handles a SA revo pretty well. He would definaitly (spelling ) hold his own shooting against another SA revo. With that said, I have shot with and watched some the best pin shoters in the country including a WORLD record 5 table run by one of our own Northeastshooters .com Member. (names will be left out so I do not embarrass them ) but you know who you are. this same member runs 2.5 second runs with a revolver. I have seen another one of the members here shoot 1.9, 2.2 second runs. I have even run some 2.8 second runs when the feeling is good. To make claims that you are the best and you would leave others in the dust is a very bold statement by anyone. Statements like that just make yourself look small and open yourself to the kind of thread that we have going on here. It is easy to be the best when the rest sucks. Again, just my 2 cents

Well said
 
This started as an IDPA vs USPSA thread and has gone so far off the track it is unbelievable but I need to answer the above.

I have seen shooters that cross over into all sports. I have found the fastest USPSA shooters honed their skills shooting steel or pins. The speed and accuracy needed to be successful in those sports one round at a time make them take charge in USPSA after they learn the sport.

Take any of the top USPSA shooters in any division and ask them if they shoot Steel Challenge or Bianchi.

Pete, you need to go to the Wallum Lake Walls of Steel match and see what it is like to shoot the 25 plus plates consistently fast and accurate. It is not a 21round mag spray and pray fest it is a 10 round mag max.

Top shooters in any sport will always be top shooters. Many very talented shooters contribute here but there is no one sport that can state their shooters are as you stated, the most skilled.

One shooter I can think of that is basically a steel shooter shot a Harvard match with no sights on his gun and finished in the top two or three. [wink]

Gary,
I pretty much agree with all you have said except the "It is not a 21round mag spray and pray fest".

Shooting wheel guns (ICORE) lately has revived my respect for the guys with nothing extra, but Hi cap open shooters aren't looking to "spray & pray" with unlimited rounds, just save a reload time........

Back to SAJohn
(John is a great name, by the way)
SAJohn,
Get out & shoot other disciplines, (IDPA, USPSA, whatever..)[wink]
If you thing a self defense load needs to be 215 PF, well, you need to get out more.[laugh]
My offer to pay for your Area 7 entry still stands, you got to find a way in though...[smile]
If they can set up a pin side match, I'm in.[crying]
JH (aka9x21)
 
Just because we have high cap mags doesn't mean we spray and pray. That totally isn't the way I shoot. I'm always aiming whenever I'm shooting. I train for all A's not just to hit a target and hope for an A. As for the 25 steel I've done it many times before and love it. As for the 14 second run I was just giving a generalization. I figure an average of a .3 split on all targets so about 9 seconds of shooting, reacting to the buzzer with a 1 second or less first shot, being limited to 10 round mags I figure (2) 1 second reloads for a time of 12 seconds with a couple of make up shots to even out at 14-16 seconds. Obviously, the difficulty of the different targets and the way they fall will change these times and misses as well but for a good stage that is where I feel I "should" be at. Keep in mind most of these plates are fairly close together. However, throw in a Texas Star and everything changes.

Pete
 
Pete, I just noticed you're not on the squadding list. You better get on there, even Friday is getting a lot of shooters.

I'm shooting on Friday which should be fun. I'll be helping out during the weekend but only able to work one of the 2 days. What day are you shooting?
 
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