IDPA, plates, practical. Do you know of any groups who run a hot range?

[Supermoto]

Thats a fair point, but I'm doing pretty well learning my way.

No doubt, but winning shooting competitions is fun

 

[Rob Boudrie]

When I took the Glock armorers course at one of the Boston PD facilities (mostly cops, about 3 non-LEOs in the class) the first order of business was everyone dropping off their loaded carry weapon in one of the BPDs ordnance lockers for the duration of the class and yes, this included the LEOs taking the course.

 

[KBCraig]

In all of the serious training with which I've been involved (multiple classes with Ayoob, Farnam, Lary, etc), they always run a hot range. This is policy with handguns and rifles. There is a safe loading / unloading area to either charge the gun, or change out expensive, defensive ammo. Instructors assume that if you have the skill to function in one of their classes, you have the skill to safely load and unload your gun, and handle trigger discipline. Even so, instructors watch the loading / unloading area to insure no one is making mistakes.

Second, the only time the gun leaves the holster is when you are on the firing line, and the run has started. No one has guns in their hands behind the line. Unsafe operation will get you dismissed from the class with no tuition refund. In all of the classes I've attended, I've never seen one instance of unsafe handling. Maybe paying $1000 for tuition weeds out the less skilled.

If you need to charge magazines, the gun stays in the holster, or with a rifle, pointed at the ground slung on your body. The magazines can be changed and charged without putting anyone at risk. Again, removing a gun from a holster if you aren't on the firing line or at the charging station will be grounds for immediate dismissal.

Students are penalized if they are ever caught with an unloaded gun. At the end of a run, making sure your gun is loaded before holstering is part of the run.

Here's the philosophy on why cold ranges are dangerous.

On a cold range, there are two situations. Loaded gun, and unloaded gun. Even though students have been drilled on the idea to "treat all guns as if they are loaded", it's way too easy to get careless because you think the gun is unloaded, and therefore safer than when you are loaded and on the line. That's why people run cold ranges. They push the idea that unloaded guns are safer than loaded ones. That's when mistakes happen. Someone thinks the gun is unloaded when it's not. Further, when a student is stressed during a run, it's easy to lose track of loaded, unloaded, safe or unsafe. Running a hot range takes any guesswork out of the equation. Guns are always loaded. Period.

To be honest, I prefer to function that way. It's just one more push in the direction to never let your guard down, and to always err on the side of safety. Every minute you are on the firing line, you are in possession of a loaded gun. You never have to try to figure out if you are loaded or unloaded.

This. All of this.

I've noticed for 20+ years that people who recite "treat all guns as if they're loaded" don't always do so. I decided back then that the best way to treat all guns as if they're loaded, is to keep them actually loaded. That way I never fall for the trap of, "But... I know it's not really loaded."

Of course there are exceptions. I have some guns in the safe that only get loaded at the range. And then there's dry-fire practice, which means removing all ammunition from the room, conducting dry-fire drills, then returning to a now I know it's really loaded! state.

But, everything that I can access quickly for self defense is actually, fully, loaded and ready for use.

 

[Supermoto]

Of course there are exceptions.

And gun games

 

[KBCraig]

And gun games

Good thing I don't play them.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

In all of the serious training with which I've been involved (multiple classes with Ayoob, Farnam, Lary, etc), they always run a hot range.

Nope, at least not the Ayoob I know. He runs a cold range and cites the "unconditional liability" for any accident on a hot range.

What he does do is when the classes are doing shooting exercises and students are on the line, tells them to reload their mags when they are not shooting and keep their guns hot between shooting exercises. When the students leave the line, the last thing they do is unload and each student has another student verify the gun is unloaded before holstering it. Students in an Ayoob class are not carrying loaded guns except when on the firing line.

Unless, of course, he has changed policies recently and didn't bother to update his website.

MAG-IC - Massad Ayoob Group

This is a Subject Matter Instructor Course and NOT an Instructor Development Course. MAG-IC is a demanding three full day Course of Fire designed specifically to expose the MAG Instructor Candidate to Massad Ayoob’s Defensive Handgun Shooting System developed and pioneered in the early 1970’s...

massadayoobgroup.com

 

[Supermoto]

Good thing I don't play them.

The point is, if you can make an exception for dry firing, then why can't people make it for gun games?

 

[Rob Boudrie]

The point is, if you can make an exception for dry firing, then why can't people make it for gun games?

Some on this forum may feel the need for a second loaded carry gun when dry firing

 

[allen-1]

No doubt, but winning shooting competitions is fun

participating in shooting competitions is fun.
"C" class shooter; working on it...

 

[TrashcanDan]

participating in shooting competitions is fun.
"C" class shooter; working on it...

C CLASS SHOOTERS UNITE!

 

[Eric H]

C CLASS SHOOTERS UNITE!

HELL YEAH BROTHERS! /Hogan

 

[KBCraig]

The point is, if you can make an exception for dry firing, then why can't people make it for gun games?

Some on this forum may feel the need for a second loaded carry gun when dry firing

When I dry fire, there are still loaded guns in the house. When I go to the range for rifle/shotgun, I will have a loaded handgun on my person at all times. If I'm at the range shooting a handgun, the only time it's empty is during an emergency reload.

 

[masssheltie]

It sounds like you’ve had a lot of interesting defensive/tactical training which is awesome. And I think it’s great to get everyone involved in the shooting sports (women, LGBT, etc) but no one here is saying their against that so I’m not sure why that’s being brought up when you’re asking about hot ranges etc. People are giving you honest and good information here because it seems like you’re confusing practical shooting/games with tactical defensive training. USPSA/IDPA/Steel Challenge/Bowling pin matches are GAMES. I realize you may not like the responses here but no one is being dishonest or rude. You need to seek out more of these tactical defensive training classes that you’ve taken. The practical shooting games are not what you seek.
Just my $0.02.

I included this in my comment because I've asked questions here before, and way too many people have posted snarky, arrogant, obnoxious responses instead of answering the question. Two months ago, I tried to buy a S&W M&P 2.0 Compact 9, and was told by the old coot behind the counter that girls like me were better to stick with revolvers because autos were too complicated for the ladies.

Some of the answers here were excellent. The experience of the typical IDPA match is not necessarily the same as an Ayoob or Farnam class, so a hot range might be problematic. Good point. But too many people on this forum make obnoxious comments rather than trying to be helpful, and women are tired of it.

You say "practical pistol groups" then "IDPA groups". We assume you are referring to an officially run IDPA match, and others mentioned the other game USPSA.

These are competitions. Games. With strict safety rules.
These are not tatical training sessions with (insert name here)
If you can make that distinction, you may enjoy the sport of "practical shooting", you may find you will get more beneficial improvements in your skills if you join one of the above organizations and shoot 2-4 matches a month for a year than a $1k weekend class.

To me, guns aren't toys, and they aren't used in games. They're serious pieces of equipment.

I find that situation ridiculous personally. Your carry gun has zero to do with the event.

If I did IDPA, I'd use the very same gun, holster and mag carrier that I carry daily.

 

[masssheltie]

From a legal perspective -

If anyone is injured on a hot range during an event, the contingency fee attorney for the plaintiff will be wetting his/her pants with excitement. There will be no escaping (a) You ran a hot range when all of our well known industry and competition experts will testify that cold range is the standard, and (b) The injury would not have happened but for your reckless hot range policy. This line of thinking is also why most businesses ban guns except for the senior executives protective details - easier to replace a convenience store clerk or engineer who took out some gentle person who left his life of crime behind than to pay for the damages after HR experts explain the "standard industry policy" regarding weapons.

Not saying I agree with it, but you can count on the issue being raised.

The real solution is care to take make sure no accidents happen (but it is impossible to ever be 100% sure when dealing with many people you don't even know). and (b) being properly insured.

Cowering in the corner fearing liability only leads to moving the goalpost to get more tightly into the corner, but it still an issue one should be aware of.

I get what you're saying, but to me, this makes no sense.

Hot range does not mean people are messing with guns off the shooting line. When I arrive, I go over to the loading / unloading safe area, remove the expensive hollow point ammo from my gun, and charge same with ball. I also remove all of the defensive ammo from my magazines, and replace same with ball. Magazine goes back in the gun, gun goes in holster, and mags go in mag carrier.

From then on, the gun never comes out of the holster except when I'm in a scenario, and the whistle has blown. If anyone is caught handling a gun anywhere else other than these two places, they're dismissed.

When I finish a stage, I can remove the magazine from the gun for recharge without removing the gun from the holster.

If the gun never leaves the holster, and my finger stays off the trigger, there will never be an ND. It doesn't matter in this situation if the gun is loaded or unloaded.

I do hope that at one of these cold range events, nobody is handling guns off the line even if they are allegedly unloaded.

 

[masssheltie]

do you really consider yourself disarmed with an unloaded gun in your holster and 3-5 loaded mags on your belt at the range?

Yes I do. An unloaded gun is worthless as a self defense tool. My Colt 45 was designed to be carried loaded, cocked and locked.

 

[allen-1]

I get what you're saying, but to me, this makes no sense.

Hot range does not mean people are messing with guns off the shooting line. When I arrive, I go over to the loading / unloading safe area, remove the expensive hollow point ammo from my gun, and charge same with ball. I also remove all of the defensive ammo from my magazines, and replace same with ball. Magazine goes back in the gun, gun goes in holster, and mags go in mag carrier.

From then on, the gun never comes out of the holster except when I'm in a scenario, and the whistle has blown. If anyone is caught handling a gun anywhere else other than these two places, they're dismissed.

When I finish a stage, I can remove the magazine from the gun for recharge without removing the gun from the holster.

If the gun never leaves the holster, and my finger stays off the trigger, there will never be an ND. It doesn't matter in this situation if the gun is loaded or unloaded.

I do hope that at one of these cold range events, nobody is handling guns off the line even if they are allegedly unloaded.

Addressing only the last line. At a cold range, there are "safe tables", when properly set up they're up against a berm. Rules for gun handling at cold range are as follows:
1) You may handle your firearm at a safe table or on the line under the direction of a RO/SO only.
2) You may handle ammunition anywhere EXCEPT at a safe table.

As Joe typically says in his safety brief "Don't reload your mags at the safe table, it's the dumbest way to get DQ'd".

Edited for clarity: You do NOT need an RO/SO at the safe table. It's the designated area where you can do whatever you need with your firearm, (other than load it). People often bring their guns to the table in a bag, unbag them, check them out, holster them, practice drawing, take sight pictures, then walk away from the table with the empty gun in their holster.

 

[masssheltie]

From a legal perspective -

If anyone is injured on a hot range during an event, the contingency fee attorney for the plaintiff will be wetting his/her pants with excitement. There will be no escaping (a) You ran a hot range when all of our well known industry and competition experts will testify that cold range is the standard, and (b) The injury would not have happened but for your reckless hot range policy. This line of thinking is also why most businesses ban guns except for the senior executives protective details - easier to replace a convenience store clerk or engineer who took out some gentle person who left his life of crime behind than to pay for the damages after HR experts explain the "standard industry policy" regarding weapons.

Not saying I agree with it, but you can count on the issue being raised.

The real solution is care to take make sure no accidents happen (but it is impossible to ever be 100% sure when dealing with many people you don't even know). and (b) being properly insured.

Cowering in the corner fearing liability only leads to moving the goalpost to get more tightly into the corner, but it still an issue one should be aware of.

Those standards are changing.

The folks teaching cutting edge in the industry - Ayoob, Farnam, etc, are all running hot ranges. In fact, one of them taught a class of marine corps recruits, and they ran the training off base, so they could run a hot range. When the instructor mentioned the idea to the officer in charge of the range, he nearly pissed his pants in fright. The cold range dogma has been hammered so hard, that few people can step back, look at the arguments with an open mind, and consider change. BTW, every one of those kids did fine, and passed the final exam.

Finally, the group I used to shoot with has been going at it for nearly 30 years. During that time, we never had one ND, one injury, or one close call. We have lost range space because some club members couldn't wrap their heads around the hot range thing.

 

[masssheltie]

Addressing only the last line. At a cold range, there are "safe tables", when properly set up they're up against a berm. Rules for gun handling at cold range are as follows:
1) You may handle your firearm at a safe table or on the line under the direction of a RO/SO only.
2) You may handle ammunition anywhere EXCEPT at a safe table.

As Joe typically says in his safety brief "Don't reload your mags at the safe table, it's the dumbest way to get DQ'd".

Is that to keep people away when people are loading / unloading guns? To minimize backup?

 

[masssheltie]

When I took the Glock armorers course at one of the Boston PD facilities (mostly cops, about 3 non-LEOs in the class) the first order of business was everyone dropping off their loaded carry weapon in one of the BPDs ordnance lockers for the duration of the class and yes, this included the LEOs taking the course.

That's different.

When you are working on / cleaning / repairing a gun, and test firing, your brain is getting programmed to pull triggers. The last thing you want when you are test firing a gun is to have ammo anywhere near you.

I've always been taught that when you are working on a gun, or dry firing, put your ammo away. When you finish, put the gun down for 1/2 an hour before you reload.

It's way too easy after pull slide, pull trigger, pull slide, pull trigger, pull slide, pull trigger, to keep doing that after you've slapped in a full magazine. I saw it happen once at a friend's house. He put a .380 slug into the ceiling. Luckily, it hit a floor joist, and did not perforate the bathtub.

 

[allen-1]

Is that to keep people away when people are loading / unloading guns? To minimize backup?

Nope. Guns get handled at safe table, ammo doesn't go near it. So if you're loading your mags on the safe table, you've got ammo in the only place on the cold range where it's prohibited.

Tables are typically sturdy, they're semi-permanent fixtures, so people dump mags on them and start loading. DQ. (disqualification from the match).

 

[masssheltie]

Nope, at least not the Ayoob I know. He runs a cold range and cites the "unconditional liability" for any accident on a hot range.

What he does do is when the classes are doing shooting exercises and students are on the line, tells them to reload their mags when they are not shooting and keep their guns hot between shooting exercises. When the students leave the line, the last thing they do is unload and each student has another student verify the gun is unloaded before holstering it. Students in an Ayoob class are not carrying loaded guns except when on the firing line.

Unless, of course, he has changed policies recently and didn't bother to update his website.

MAG-IC - Massad Ayoob Group

This is a Subject Matter Instructor Course and NOT an Instructor Development Course. MAG-IC is a demanding three full day Course of Fire designed specifically to expose the MAG Instructor Candidate to Massad Ayoob’s Defensive Handgun Shooting System developed and pioneered in the early 1970’s...

massadayoobgroup.com

When I took LFI 1 back years ago, there was never an empty gun in a holster. Ever.

Students are given the option to unload after class finishes to carry a gun home empty in a case. Most students just changed ammo, and carried their guns out in holsters.

 

[DW357]

I included this in my comment because I've asked questions here before, and way too many people have posted snarky, arrogant, obnoxious responses instead of answering the question. Two months ago, I tried to buy a S&W M&P 2.0 Compact 9, and was told by the old coot behind the counter that girls like me were better to stick with revolvers because autos were too complicated for the ladies.

Yeah that’s a ridiculous statement from that coot at the gun shop.

 

[Supermoto]

I get what you're saying, but to me, this makes no sense.

Hot range does not mean people are messing with guns off the shooting line. When I arrive, I go over to the loading / unloading safe area, remove the expensive hollow point ammo from my gun, and charge same with ball. I also remove all of the defensive ammo from my magazines, and replace same with ball. Magazine goes back in the gun, gun goes in holster, and mags go in mag carrier.

From then on, the gun never comes out of the holster except when I'm in a scenario, and the whistle has blown. If anyone is caught handling a gun anywhere else other than these two places, they're dismissed.

When I finish a stage, I can remove the magazine from the gun for recharge without removing the gun from the holster.

If the gun never leaves the holster, and my finger stays off the trigger, there will never be an ND. It doesn't matter in this situation if the gun is loaded or unloaded.

I do hope that at one of these cold range events, nobody is handling guns off the line even if they are allegedly unloaded.

Cold range is the same, people aren't messing with their gun either. they are sent home if they do

Here is a question for you hot range folks. If you shoot your stage, you holster your gun. You pop out the mag and put in a fresh one....how do you know if there is one in the pipe? Not think you know, actually know

 

[Rob Boudrie]

When I took LFI 1 back years ago, there was never an empty gun in a holster. Ever.

Students are given the option to unload after class finishes to carry a gun home empty in a case. Most students just changed ammo, and carried their guns out in holsters.

Most interesting and in direct conflict with what was done when I took it, as well as with Ayoobs professed (at the time) cold range philosophy.

Were guns worn loaded when you were not on the firing line?

 

[hedgehound]

Is that to keep people away when people are loading / unloading guns? To minimize backup?

This is part of the process intended to separate ammo from a firearm.

 

[xtry51]

Cold range is the same, people aren't messing with their gun either. they are sent home if they do

Here is a question for you hot range folks. If you shoot your stage, you holster your gun. You pop out the mag and put in a fresh one....how do you know if there is one in the pipe? Not think you know, actually know

My response is I half rack to check everytime before I holster if I swap a mag right before doing it. Also there's nothing to prevent ROs letting people do a slide chack before their run starts.

 

[chris_1001]

When at shooting games. Just stick to cold ranges.

I’m an idpa SO. I’d hate to have you finish a stage and try to reload to capacity at the line to stay hot and topped off.

I get it in training. But this (idpa/uspsa/3-gun) is a game. Play by the rules.

 

[xtry51]

When at shooting games. Just stick to cold ranges.

I’m an idpa SO. I’d hate to have you finish a stage and try to reload to capacity at the line to stay hot and topped off.

I get it in training. But this (idpa/uspsa/3-gun) is a game. Play by the rules.

I guess this mentality is why it boiled down to me not going to comps. "Just do it because rulz!".

I'm saying the rules don't make any sense. You're training to get better with a firearm. I dont think while doing that you should simultaneously tell people loaded guns are so dangerous, we can't do that around here. I don't like being treated like an idiot when I'm being responsible. Treat the dumbass finger f***ing his gun like an idiot and let the rest of us be adults.

 

[vickers]

I think youre confusing hot range (loaded weapons) with allowing people to handle firearms. Keep the gun loaded in your holster. Thats what I'm talking about. You can still tell people not to handle their firearms off the line.

I may have misunderstood your point, not sure, but I am not confused about what a hot range is. Your statement was a "cold range" is stupid. I am saying that its a way to control things when you have a group of people doing something that has some inherent danger. Procedures are created to maximize safety. A cold range does that very well.

Now, if your argument is that there should be a designated area with backstop or catcher or whatever where the shooters go to load up and holster before going to the line and so they arrive at the line with a loaded gun, then that would be a way to do it. I don't see the advantage of it really except maybe in major matches it might speed things up a bit.

However, a draw back in my mind is that the CSO/SOs are not getting to watch the shooter's gun handling. Sometimes with newer shooters this kind of oversight can avert disaster. Even seasoned shooters sometimes have issues, medical, heat, whatever. I have seen a case or two in a major match where a CSO notices a shooter behaving strangely and gets them help. Anyway, that's an extreme example but I personally think there is more safety in the cold range setup.

 

[chris_1001]

I guess this mentality is why it boiled down to me not going to comps. "Just do it because rulz!".

I'm saying the rules don't make any sense. You're training to get better with a firearm. I dont think while doing that you should simultaneously tell people loaded guns are so dangerous, we can't do that around here. I don't like being treated like an idiot when I'm being responsible. Treat the dumbass finger f***ing his gun like an idiot and let the rest of us be adults.

It’s a game. Yes it has practical applications.

No one I shoot with thinks loaded guns are dangerous.

But you just shot, you have four rounds left in your mag. Do you reload, take the mag out and top off at the line? Then walk off and top off your spent mags? Why not show clear and top off off the line?

As it is you have to walk off, top off your spent mags anyway.

I don’t believe the rules are there to make you feel line an idiot. But let’s be real, not everyone has great gun handling skills. It’s a formula to keep the weakest link from ruining a day at the range.

For those that took sig 104, there is no gong.

The commands are clear for the games. So agree or not, if you want to play, you have to follow them or get bounced.

Again, It would go slower if I had to watch you top off or what at the line.