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IDPA, plates, practical. Do you know of any groups who run a hot range?

Op you are seriously confusing training and shooting games. I've had defensive shooting classes and they are typically hot ranges. The shooting games are an entirely different type of event. There's no need for real world scenarios in games. Guns fall out of holsters for many reasons at games, getting in and out of chairs, working on stages, people running to get an item, or in my case lying on the ground to observe a shooting position. I'm fine with the ability to load a gun rapidly off the belt if the need arose if that's your concern.

As to your claim that we are exclusionary, it's untrue. The fact is competitive shooters are a very accomodating and welcoming group. New shooters, regardless of who they are, are invited with open arms as long as they are safe. In fact, we recognize the genuine need to constantly recruit new people into the sports to help run events.
 
nstassel said:
As to your claim that we are exclusionary, it's untrue. The fact is competitive shooters are a very accomodating and welcoming group. New shooters, regardless of who they are, are invited with open arms as long as they are safe. In fact, we recognize the genuine need to constantly recruit new people into the sports to help run events.
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My first USPSA match, my squad was run by a minority woman, as a matter of fact.

There's lots of young/old male/female at the events I've attended, despite the Northeast being, in general, much less diverse than the rest of the country.

At no event did I witness discrimination against anyone based on gender, orientation, or skin color.
 
masssheltie,

I would like to compliment you! You are taking firearms and your safety very seriously, you are getting intense tactical and defensive training. Good for you!

You also are mixing sporting games with tactical training, it was already noted here. IDPA, USPSA, Steel, you name it, are all games with their own rules. The rules are different from the training you had. If you can accept this then you could enjoy the sport.

Good luck!
 
xtry51 said:
Unfortunately shooting sports are a lot like public schools. Instead of expecting responsibility, they cater to the lowest denominator.

Cold ranges are IMO stupid. Disarming yourself is both asinine and loading/unloading guns increases the risk of NDs. The less you handle your gun, the less likely it is to be fired.
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The hilighted was one of the argument used at the Hopkinton club when there was a push to get rid of the no carry rule. Unloading before entering the clubhouse with people walking by presented a danger not present with a holstered gun. The rule is now that loaded guns are to be handled only at the firing line.

The club does follow USPSA cold range rules at those matches. I am a strong advocate of carry but one has to remember that those matches use guns designed for performance in competition, and fast draw holsters - the chances of a gun being dropped are higher than with a carry holster. Also, those guns are unholstered at a designated safety area and manipulated, triggers pulled, etc.

One thing I did accomplish when on the USPSA board was the carry gun rule. Under the old rule, you would be disqualified if carrying a loaded gun when you showed up at a match. The problem is this meant things like unholstering a hot gun in the car to unload discretely. The USPSA carry gun rule states one will not be disqualified if they arrive at a match hot and their first action is to find a range officer and unload their carry weapon to prepare for the match.
 
masssheltie said:
<<snip>>
Well, times have changed, gentlemen. Women are the largest growing group of gun owners in the US. Minorities are getting involved. LBGT people are participating. The gun world is no longer the good old boys club, smoking cigars, and gabbing it up down at the guns and ammo store. Just because you don't understand something, or have no experience with something doesn't make it wrong. And it makes you look like an idiot to attack someone because they have different ideas. Maybe instead of shooting your mouths off, you should open your minds and listen for a change. This sort of arrogant attitude is what drives people away from guns and the shooting sports. Especially women, LGBT people and anyone who is not some grizzled, crusty, grouchy old white guy.
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This paragraph made me sad. Because it is very far from reality. It also shows me that you have not really been to the sporting events you are criticizing. The sporting crowd is very open and accepting to all people. Come to the events, see for yourself! Enjoy the sport!
 
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hedgehound said:
This paragraph made me sad. Because it is very far from reality. It also shows me that you have not really been to the sporting events you are criticizing. The sporting crowd is very open and accepting to all people. Come, check us out, see for yourself! Enjoy the sport!
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Ever see a golf or bowling league where you have skilled tradespeople, professional nerds, attorneys, cops, and doctors hang out together? Most activities where people hang closely together tend to segregate people by background, caste, etc. Recreational shooting is an area where the the commonality we all share trumps other differences.
 
Rob Boudrie said:
The hilighted was one of the argument used at the Hopkinton club when there was a push to get rid of the no carry rule. Unloading before entering the clubhouse with people walking by presented a danger not present with a holstered gun. The rule is now that loaded guns are to be handled only at the firing line.

The club does follow USPSA cold range rules at those matches. I am a strong advocate of carry but one has to remember that those matches use guns designed for performance in competition, and fast draw holsters - the chances of a gun being dropped are higher than with a carry holster. Also, those guns are unholstered at a designated safety area and manipulated, triggers pulled, etc.

One thing I did accomplish when on the USPSA board was the carry gun rule. Under the old rule, you would be disqualified if carrying a loaded gun when you showed up at a match. The problem is this meant things like unholstering a hot gun in the car to unload discretely. The USPSA carry gun rule states one will not be disqualified if they arrive at a match hot and their first action is to find a range officer and unload their carry weapon to prepare for the match.
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At every match I shoot down here, at the safety brief it's announced that it's a cold range and asked if anyone has a hot weapon them. If they do, (and I've seen a few hands raised), they're told to see the SO giving the safety briefing directly after the safety briefing so that they can unload under the direction of a SO/RO. This is accompanied with "this is your last chance, if you have a hot weapon after this, it's a DQ".

We recognize that people come in hot and deal with it. I rode into CAPS one day on my bike to shoot a USPSA match. When I got there, I found the Match Director, told him that my comp gun was on my bike, but that I had a loaded carry gun on me. We walked over to a bay and I unloaded it in front of him. Took my holster off, put the empty gun in it and put in on the TBag on my bike. At the end of the match, we reversed procedure because I wasn't leaving there with an empty carry gun.
 
allen-1 said:
At every match I shoot down here, at the safety brief it's announced that it's a cold range and asked if anyone has a hot weapon them. If they do, (and I've seen a few hands raised), they're told to see the SO giving the safety briefing directly after the safety briefing so that they can unload under the direction of a SO/RO. This is accompanied with "this is your last chance, if you have a hot weapon after this, it's a DQ".

We recognize that people come in hot and deal with it. I rode into CAPS one day on my bike to shoot a USPSA match. When I got there, I found the Match Director, told him that my comp gun was on my bike, but that I had a loaded carry gun on me. We walked over to a bay and I unloaded it in front of him. Took my holster off, put the empty gun in it and put in on the TBag on my bike. At the end of the match, we reversed procedure because I wasn't leaving there with an empty carry gun.
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I find that situation ridiculous personally. Your carry gun has zero to do with the event.
 
It makes sense to really lean into safety rules when you're racing with guns, because the whole point of racing is to push yourself to your limits and occasionally beyond. When you're thinking about your race-plan, getting exactly the right angles, making the best movements, thinking about exactly where you're reloading.... it's pretty easy to forget or overlook stuff even before the buzzer goes off.

I think most competitors have at some point 'wrecked' in some way because, well, if you're not wrecking, you're not racing. There's nothing to be gained by introducing opportunities for wrecks and mental errors to be worse.

xtry51 said:
I find that situation ridiculous personally. Your carry gun has zero to do with the event.
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Ranges tend to have rules which include "do not screw with your loaded gun in the parking lot", rules of the game not withstanding.
 
xtry51 said:
I find that situation ridiculous personally. Your carry gun has zero to do with the event.
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Yes, and no.
I'm not running my carry gun in the event.
But I'm on the range where a sanctioned event is being run, it's a cold range, and I'm wearing a loaded firearm.


I shoot in a pin league when I'm in CT at my club. I know people are wearing loaded weapons, nobody cares as long as they remain concealed. The pistols in the competition are to be unloaded at all times, except at the line - and they're loaded there under the direction of one of the guys running the match when the range is ready for the next pair of shooters.

I wasn't present, my buddy Mike was and he saw this happen. Steve was putting his gun away at the end of the night. He slapped an "empty" magazine into the firearm and then pulled the trigger to drop the hammer. He was pointing the gun at the table at the time. The bullet went through the table, bounced off the table leg and hit Bill in the calf.

Fortunately it was a .22 caliber match - not a medium bore or big bore match.

Steve's not a child, not new to firearms; he was careless.

There was a great deal of discussion at my club when this happened about how to keep it from happening again.

I'm personally glad that Bill wasn't hurt badly enough to require a hospital trip. The neighbors that would like our club shut down would have had a field day over someone getting shot on the premises.

Cold range rules are in place to try to keep this kind of negligence from happening.
 
This post seems more like a rant about cold ranges than trying to find a match that runs a hot range. If you don't like the rules don't play the sport. If you want to shoot a match on a hot range go ahead and start one at your club. The bonus rant about the stereotypical gun world does not apply to IDPA, USPSA, multigun, etc matches. Maybe whatever issue you have with a cold range is preventing you from attending one of these matches and seeing that for yourself....which is unfortunate.
 
First I want to address Masssheltie,s statement about the shooting sports not being inclusive, one of the high demand series of uspsa matches is run by a minority women. Her matches are well run and always full with a long waiting list. There are also 3 gun matchs that are organized by a woman up in Nh. The match director for area 7, a major regional uspsa match is a women and a different women will be designing and running one of the stages. Steel challange at Harvard has a women Ro and before covid there was a good chance you,d be registered by a women.

In the shooting sports CZ pistols are very common, and most must have the hammer manually lowered onto a live round in order to meet the rules of the game (they don,t have a decocker) I certainly don,t want some one behind me manually lowering the hammer on a live round

The shooting sports are a game just like golf. There are strategies, planing and skills involved the same as any other sport, most of the equipment used is not something you would use for daily carry, yes Idpa has some divisions geared toward smaller lighter pistols but it's a game with a pre planed stratigy. I participate in the shooting sports because they are a fun, not as a training ground for a real life senerio.
 
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Happy feet said:
In the shooting sports CZ pistols are very common, and most must have the hammer manually lowered onto a live round in order to meet the rules of the game (they don,t have a decocker) I certainly don,t want some one behind me manually lowering the hammer on a live round
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While there are credible arguments for both cold and hot ranges, the prospect of lowering the hammer on a hot round while the firearm is pointed safely downrange under the supervision of an RO/SO is not one of them.
 
Happy feet said:
In the shooting sports CZ pistols are very common, and most must have the hammer manually lowered onto a live round in order to meet the rules of the game (they don,t have a decocker) I certainly don,t want some one behind me manually lowering the hammer on a live round
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This type of phantasm is not the reason gun games run cold ranges, though. Nobody would allow that on a hot range, either, except in a coordinated manner. It's mostly due to compatibility with hosting clubs. Most semi-fudd or even minimal fudd, club's BODs would shit their pants if you told them you were going to run a shooting event open to the public configured as a hot range , even if it could be done safely. It's encrusted legacy BS that will prevent that from ever changing.... and it's also a concession made by the sports to allow their events to be run at a wider range of facilities since the cold range protocol is basic enough to explain that it can pacify most fudds enough to get a stamp of approval.
 
I am sure that with proper process and control measures and points both hot and cold ranges can be safe.

Clubs and organizations accepted cold range rule(s) and have established appropriate process. This process is in place for number of decades.

This is what it is.
 
drgrant said:
This type of phantasm is not the reason gun games run cold ranges, though. Nobody would allow that on a hot range, either, except in a coordinated manner. It's mostly due to compatibility with hosting clubs. Most semi-fudd or even minimal fudd, club's BODs would shit their pants if you told them you were going to run a shooting event open to the public configured as a hot range , even if it could be done safely. It's encrusted legacy BS that will prevent that from ever changing.... and it's also a concession made by the sports to allow their events to be run at a wider range of facilities since the cold range protocol is basic enough to explain that it can pacify most fudds enough to get a stamp of approval.
Click to expand...

Exactly! Hot range does not mean that stupidity and recklessness are permitted or tolerated!
 
Rob Boudrie said:
While there are credible arguments for both cold and hot ranges, the prospect of lowering the hammer on a hot round while the firearm is pointed safely downrange under the supervision of an RO/SO is not one of them.
Click to expand...

The above is correct, my point was that with a hot range you don't know when some one is going to have a brain fart and do something dumb, or make a mistake " am I topped of hmm let me check, did I drop the hammer oops I,ll do it quick, is my mag all the way in let me mess with it quick, oh you have to lay on the ground to get those targets let me try it ...oops my gun and mags fell out when I laid down and now there's sand all over everything hmm" also you have new shooters who may not have grasped everything that's involved. Many competitors also do a draw stimulation hands above head hand to gun butt (no draw) cold range common practice on a hot range some may not be comfortable with a stranger doing that. On a hot range everyone is not under the supervision of the RO the RO is focused on the competitor in the box.

As mentioned host clubs are comfortable with cold ranges which allows for matchs to held, and because I enjoy the matchs I,ve accepted that. I,ve also never been at a completion and felt the need for my gun to be loaded before I was on the firing line. But I see matches as a game not a training ground, others may view things differently and need to decide if matches meet their needs with the long established safety rules as is. From a practical standpoint I do feel that my shooting in general has improved since I started competitions
 
Finally, there is something else I need to say.

I'm not a guy. The culture of the gun world has to change. In the past, gun owners have been crusty, old white dudes or macho young studs who pack globs of arrogance, attitude and testosterone-fueled posturing. They have no understanding of their own ignorance, and strut around like cock roosters trying to one up the guy standing next to them. They populate the shoots, the gun shops, and these forums, and anyone who is not studly, crusty or a true gun guy is driven away.

Well, times have changed, gentlemen. Women are the largest growing group of gun owners in the US. Minorities are getting involved. LBGT people are participating. The gun world is no longer the good old boys club, smoking cigars, and gabbing it up down at the guns and ammo store. Just because you don't understand something, or have no experience with something doesn't make it wrong. And it makes you look like an idiot to attack someone because they have different ideas. Maybe instead of shooting your mouths off, you should open your minds and listen for a change. This sort of arrogant attitude is what drives people away from guns and the shooting sports. Especially women, LGBT people and anyone who is not some grizzled, crusty, grouchy old white guy.
[/QUOTE]

There are certain Gun shops, ranges etc that my wife feels more comfortable in so those are the ones that she goes to and those are the ones I go to as well.

Telling a group of people who are happy with what they have and how they operate, that they are naughty and need to change sounds awfully socialist of you. Speak with your wallet or start your own club that fits your needs...also despite your notions the gun culture is happy to have women on board, so get off your wallet and go green.
 
xtry51 said:
Unfortunately shooting sports are a lot like public schools. Instead of expecting responsibility, they cater to the lowest denominator.

Cold ranges are IMO stupid. Disarming yourself is both asinine and loading/unloading guns increases the risk of NDs. The less you handle your gun, the less likely it is to be fired.
Click to expand...

do you really consider yourself disarmed with an unloaded gun in your holster and 3-5 loaded mags on your belt at the range?

normally, when I go to the range, it is with the intention of handling my gun to shoot it. But I do agree with you that the less you handle it the less likely it is to be fired. If I locked mine in my safe and never handled it, then it would never be fired. I don’t get your point here.
 
xtry51 said:
I find that situation ridiculous personally. Your carry gun has zero to do with the event.
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Really, you do know that some people actually shoot their carry gun in a match to become proficient with it. Or they shoot a very similar model. Me, I bought a 2nd identical gun so I wouldn’t have to clean my carry gun after matches.
 
From a legal perspective -

If anyone is injured on a hot range during an event, the contingency fee attorney for the plaintiff will be wetting his/her pants with excitement. There will be no escaping (a) You ran a hot range when all of our well known industry and competition experts will testify that cold range is the standard, and (b) The injury would not have happened but for your reckless hot range policy. This line of thinking is also why most businesses ban guns except for the senior executives protective details - easier to replace a convenience store clerk or engineer who took out some gentle person who left his life of crime behind than to pay for the damages after HR experts explain the "standard industry policy" regarding weapons.

Not saying I agree with it, but you can count on the issue being raised.

The real solution is care to take make sure no accidents happen (but it is impossible to ever be 100% sure when dealing with many people you don't even know). and (b) being properly insured.

Cowering in the corner fearing liability only leads to moving the goalpost to get more tightly into the corner, but it still an issue one should be aware of.
 
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xtry51 said:
Its a big factor. I'd rather spend my money on personal training or private lessons where we don't pretend unloaded guns are a good idea.
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I don't think they pretend its a good idea for guns overall, just the game. All games have rules that are different than real life that it mimics. MMA you can't punch people in the balls. Real life fight...yeah I'm gonna punch you in the plums.
 
Supermoto said:
I don't think they pretend its a good idea for guns overall, just the game. All games have rules that are different than real life that it mimics. MMA you can't punch people in the balls. Real life fight...yeah I'm gonna punch you in the plums.
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Thats a fair point, but I'm doing pretty well learning my way.
 

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