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IDPA, plates, practical. Do you know of any groups who run a hot range?

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masssheltie

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Does anyone know of any practical pistol groups who run a hot range? Most IDPA groups seem to adhere to the cold range philosophy.

Thanks
 
I don’t know of any. I think you’ll have a VERY hard time finding a range.
 
OP- your question doesn't make any sense- most of the gun games all pretty much demand cold range as part of their top level rules, it's baked in. About as close as you will ever get to that as there are numerous trainers that will pretty much run hot range based training courses, but that's a different ball game...
 
My understanding is a Cold Range means no firearms are loaded until at the firing line. Hot Range is Firearms are loaded prior to the firing line. As a Range Safety Officer and Match Director I believe no good can come from this. I only want to worry about one loaded gun at a time. There is no justification for it. It adds nothing to the event. Additionally, what about three gun? Are those rifles and shotguns going to be loaded and let shooters walk around with them
 
Unfortunately shooting sports are a lot like public schools. Instead of expecting responsibility, they cater to the lowest denominator.

Cold ranges are IMO stupid. Disarming yourself is both asinine and loading/unloading guns increases the risk of NDs. The less you handle your gun, the less likely it is to be fired.
 
xtry51 said:
Unfortunately shooting sports are a lot like public schools. Instead of expecting responsibility, they cater to the lowest denominator.

Cold ranges are IMO stupid. Disarming yourself is both asinine and loading/unloading guns increases the risk of NDs. The less you handle your gun, the less likely it is to be fired.
Click to expand...

I,m not sure I understand the above, in the gun games you are loading/unloading your firearm constantly, in one round of steel challange you,ve loaded your firearm 5 times. As far as disarming your self, I don't get out much but haven't heard of many muggings at a sanctioned shooting event. Also at any shooting sport event I,ve attend you are expected to behave in a safe and responsible manner to behave other wise equals a DQ.

I,m good with a cold range! , but as mentioned above I don,t get out much
 
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xtry51 said:
Unfortunately shooting sports are a lot like public schools. Instead of expecting responsibility, they cater to the lowest denominator.

Cold ranges are IMO stupid. Disarming yourself is both asinine and loading/unloading guns increases the risk of NDs. The less you handle your gun, the less likely it is to be fired.
Click to expand...

This argument makes zero sense.

In a cold range you are loading/unloading at the firing line facing downrange with zero people in front of you, there is very little risk of injury to someone else, flukes aside.

In a hot range situation some yahoo at the benches way back could be loading/unloading with all the rest of the squad standing in front them, loading and unloading exactly as many times as they would be at the firing line. If you think it's more likely to have an ND while reloading, which scenario do you want to be in as someone standing around waiting to shoot while the guy loading/unloading has an ND?
 
vickers said:
This argument makes zero sense.

In a cold range you are loading/unloading at the firing line facing downrange with zero people in front of you, there is very little risk of injury to someone else, flukes aside.

In a hot range situation some yahoo at the benches way back could be loading/unloading with all the rest of the squad standing in front them, loading and unloading exactly as many times as they would be at the firing line. If you think it's more likely to have an ND while reloading, which scenario do you want to be in as someone standing around waiting to shoot while the guy loading/unloading has an ND?
Click to expand...

I think youre confusing hot range (loaded weapons) with allowing people to handle firearms. Keep the gun loaded in your holster. Thats what I'm talking about. You can still tell people not to handle their firearms off the line.
 
xtry51 said:
I think youre confusing hot range (loaded weapons) with allowing people to handle firearms. Keep the gun loaded in your holster. Thats what I'm talking about. You can still tell people not to handle their firearms off the line.
Click to expand...

Where and how are people expected.to load their firearms?
 
xtry51 said:
At the line or at designated areas. I fail to see how this is complicated.
Click to expand...

Will they load firearms under control of RO? Or just load at will? I presume, there will be safe areas and loading areas? How to deal with potential ADs during loading?

How to deal with dropped loaded firearm? There will be more occurances of that.

I am simply curious.

I also fail to see how hot range decreases amount of loading/unloading operations. It will spread it to more locations.
 
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Knob Creek said:
My understanding is a Cold Range means no firearms are loaded until at the firing line. Hot Range is Firearms are loaded prior to the firing line. As a Range Safety Officer and Match Director I believe no good can come from this. I only want to worry about one loaded gun at a time. There is no justification for it. It adds nothing to the event. Additionally, what about three gun? Are those rifles and shotguns going to be loaded and let shooters walk around with them
Click to expand...

With proper discipline and process, I think, it could be done. Why? It's a different story. In any case, any organized action shooters group will exercise cold range to adhere to published official rules.
 
Gun games are not real life,.. and when they are open to the public they cater to the lowest common denominator,.. I'm fine with cold ranges. Seems like every season I see probably 3 dropped guns.
 
Ignoring the hot/cold range "debate", I think the closest the OP would get to being able to wear a plate carrier and having a practical shooting experience would be Townsend 2-gun in Townsend, Mass. Townsend is having a match this weekend if @masssheltie wants to go and observe. Obviously, 2-gun necessitates the use of a rifle, and he posted in the pistol competition subforum, so that's likely not what he's looking for.

Pemi Fish in Game in NH was supposed to start a 2-gun series this year, however, their first match was cancelled and there's been no word about their intended September match.
 
In all of the serious training with which I've been involved (multiple classes with Ayoob, Farnam, Lary, etc), they always run a hot range. This is policy with handguns and rifles. There is a safe loading / unloading area to either charge the gun, or change out expensive, defensive ammo. Instructors assume that if you have the skill to function in one of their classes, you have the skill to safely load and unload your gun, and handle trigger discipline. Even so, instructors watch the loading / unloading area to insure no one is making mistakes.

Second, the only time the gun leaves the holster is when you are on the firing line, and the run has started. No one has guns in their hands behind the line. Unsafe operation will get you dismissed from the class with no tuition refund. In all of the classes I've attended, I've never seen one instance of unsafe handling. Maybe paying $1000 for tuition weeds out the less skilled.

If you need to charge magazines, the gun stays in the holster, or with a rifle, pointed at the ground slung on your body. The magazines can be changed and charged without putting anyone at risk. Again, removing a gun from a holster if you aren't on the firing line or at the charging station will be grounds for immediate dismissal.

Students are penalized if they are ever caught with an unloaded gun. At the end of a run, making sure your gun is loaded before holstering is part of the run.

Here's the philosophy on why cold ranges are dangerous.

On a cold range, there are two situations. Loaded gun, and unloaded gun. Even though students have been drilled on the idea to "treat all guns as if they are loaded", it's way too easy to get careless because you think the gun is unloaded, and therefore safer than when you are loaded and on the line. That's why people run cold ranges. They push the idea that unloaded guns are safer than loaded ones. That's when mistakes happen. Someone thinks the gun is unloaded when it's not. Further, when a student is stressed during a run, it's easy to lose track of loaded, unloaded, safe or unsafe. Running a hot range takes any guesswork out of the equation. Guns are always loaded. Period.

To be honest, I prefer to function that way. It's just one more push in the direction to never let your guard down, and to always err on the side of safety. Every minute you are on the firing line, you are in possession of a loaded gun. You never have to try to figure out if you are loaded or unloaded.

Most negligent discharges (there is no such thing as an accidental discharge) happens when guns are being loaded, unloaded and handled. Keeping a loaded gun in the holster is far safer than constantly messing with it.

Finally, if you carry a gun for self-defense (and that's why most people partake in practical shooting training and practice), the gun is always loaded. No serious person that I know keeps cold range on a personal protection firearm. When you awaken, you take the loaded gun out of the safe, chamber check the gun, and holster same. It stays that way until bedtime. The gun only comes out of the holster if you need to shoot.

Now there is one reason why it may make sense for IDPA and similar shoots run cold ranges. They don't control who attends these events.

The shooting group I used to work with would test every participant before allowing them to join the group. The range officer would put everyone through a qualification run to insure that the person could handle rifle and pistol safely, and could competently place rounds on the target. Anyone who failed the qual or was seen doing anything unsafe would not be allowed to shoot. No exceptions. In the classes that I've taken, they ask about previous experience, and you are carefully monitored for the first few range operations to confirm that skill level.

IDPA, plate matches or bowling pin shoots seem to be open to anyone, whether they are a club member, experienced shooter, or newbie. I don't think most groups demand pre-qualification to participate. Running a cold range might make sense if you can't control the quality of the participants.

Finally, there is something else I need to say.

I'm not a guy. The culture of the gun world has to change. In the past, gun owners have been crusty, old white dudes or macho young studs who pack globs of arrogance, attitude and testosterone-fueled posturing. They have no understanding of their own ignorance, and strut around like cock roosters trying to one up the guy standing next to them. They populate the shoots, the gun shops, and these forums, and anyone who is not studly, crusty or a true gun guy is driven away.

Well, times have changed, gentlemen. Women are the largest growing group of gun owners in the US. Minorities are getting involved. LBGT people are participating. The gun world is no longer the good old boys club, smoking cigars, and gabbing it up down at the guns and ammo store. Just because you don't understand something, or have no experience with something doesn't make it wrong. And it makes you look like an idiot to attack someone because they have different ideas. Maybe instead of shooting your mouths off, you should open your minds and listen for a change. This sort of arrogant attitude is what drives people away from guns and the shooting sports. Especially women, LGBT people and anyone who is not some grizzled, crusty, grouchy old white guy.
 
If a gun is in good working order, and has been properly maintained, it will not go off if dropped. Some guns are dangerous in this way - unmodified, single action revolvers, and series 70 Colt autos that lack a firing pin lock, but most carry guns are designed to be drop safe.

To be honest, learning how to properly grip a gun before removing it from a holster seems to be something that needs to be mastered before actually sending rounds downrange.
 
masssheltie said:
Does anyone know of any practical pistol groups who run a hot range? Most IDPA groups seem to adhere to the cold range philosophy.

Thanks
Click to expand...
You say "practical pistol groups" then "IDPA groups". We assume you are referring to an officially run IDPA match, and others mentioned the other game USPSA.

These are competitions. Games. With strict safety rules.
These are not tatical training sessions with (insert name here)
If you can make that distinction, you may enjoy the sport of "practical shooting", you may find you will get more beneficial improvements in your skills if you join one of the above organizations and shoot 2-4 matches a month for a year than a $1k weekend class.
 
masssheltie said:
Does anyone know of any practical pistol groups who run a hot range? Most IDPA groups seem to adhere to the cold range philosophy.

Thanks
Click to expand...

IDPA/USPSA call for a cold range in their rulebooks.
Plate matches that I help run at my club and pin matches call for cold range because our range rules, (set by practical pistol chairman and board approved), require it.
GSSF matches require cold range, rules set by Glock.

In all of these cases, I believe that it's done because we're actively asking for new shooters, we want people who haven't shot before to come join in our activities - and we want to be sure that it's done safely. So, we have rules and we have SO's/RO's. (Yeah, I'm an IDPA CSO and a USPSA RO).

In the advanced classes I've taken we've run hot ranges. We've been able to do so because there aren't any "newbies" in the class. If you're there, you've been pre-approved for the class based upon your experience/ability. There's no slack for unsafe practices - you screw up - you're gone.

We have 12 tactical pits at my club. You can do whatever you want within them, as long as your rounds stay within the range, and you don't point loaded guns uprange, (where there's no berm). It's not uncommon to have a group of club members (and guests), running stages in a pit, using pistols, rifles, shotguns or combinations thereof. If the group wants to run "hot", nobody cares. If they're practicing for IDPA/USPSA they'll probably run cold just so they stay mentally prepped for a match by using the standard match commands (make ready, stand by, if finished unload and show clear, etc). If they're not match prepping, they'll probably run a hot range.

I'd say come on over and try it, but I'm an easy thousand miles away, (I'm in SouthEast Georgia, outside of Savannah).
 
One other issue.

I took a vehicle defense class with a law enforcement instructor. Rifle and pistol. The class was mostly law enforcement and active duty military types. These guys paid for their training out of their own pocket, so they were a lot more serous than the average cop or soldier. We had guys from NY State police, Boston PD, NH sheriff's department, and Colorado law enforcement along with Army, and Marines. I was the only woman in the class, and one of three civilians.

Training scenarios were run with two people shooting on the firing line at the same time. Since the exercises involved cars, shooters were not lined up next to each other, separated by hardened partitions. Not only did you have to exert serious muzzle and trigger control while climbing in and out of cars, and moving around the vehicle, but you also had to keep track of where your partner was on the range. Range officer supervision was intense, with officers almost in contact with the shooters, but most of the impetus for operating safely was on the individual student.

When the instructor described what we were to be doing, one civilian student asked whether the training was dangerous.

The instructor, a former US Marine, and presently sworn law enforcement guy immediately responded.

"You've all heard the bullshit about how guns are safe, and shooting sports are no more dangerous than playing ping pong? Well that's crap. Shooting is dangerous. If you f*** up, someone is either going to die, or get maimed. We're having you shoot scenarios that put you at risk. Right now, it's October, and it's pouring rain. We're still going to shoot. By the end of each day, you're going to be in pain. Cut. Scraped. Wet. Dirty. Exhausted. Not thinking straight. This makes it far easier to have an ND, or start doing things that are unsafe. Range officers will be in close contact, but what you are doing here is dangerous, and puts you at risk.

But here's the deal. My job is not to protect you from harm. My job is to train you so that you can shoot competently when sweat is dripping into your eyes, rain has soaked your body and you're shivering. Your gun is wet and slippery. You're tired. There are innocents on the range, and someone is trying to kill you. In the real world, you're not going to be shooting lined up perfectly with all the targets laid out in a nice neat row. There's going to be chaos. You have to practice under such conditions to know that you can competently function when conditions aren't perfect.

It is dangerous, but it's more dangerous to send you out onto the street with a gun, when you've never experienced the real world.

Its up to you to be safe and to take care.

I realize that this sort of stuff is not IDPA, open to the general public. But the whole point of doing IDPA is to train for carrying a gun for defense. It makes all sort of sense to make things as safe as possible, but guns can never be made completely safe.
 
masssheltie said:
Finally, there is something else I need to say.

I'm not a guy. The culture of the gun world has to change. In the past, gun owners have been crusty, old white dudes or macho young studs who pack globs of arrogance, attitude and testosterone-fueled posturing. They have no understanding of their own ignorance, and strut around like cock roosters trying to one up the guy standing next to them. They populate the shoots, the gun shops, and these forums, and anyone who is not studly, crusty or a true gun guy is driven away.

Well, times have changed, gentlemen. Women are the largest growing group of gun owners in the US. Minorities are getting involved. LBGT people are participating. The gun world is no longer the good old boys club, smoking cigars, and gabbing it up down at the guns and ammo store. Just because you don't understand something, or have no experience with something doesn't make it wrong. And it makes you look like an idiot to attack someone because they have different ideas. Maybe instead of shooting your mouths off, you should open your minds and listen for a change. This sort of arrogant attitude is what drives people away from guns and the shooting sports. Especially women, LGBT people and anyone who is not some grizzled, crusty, grouchy old white guy.
Click to expand...
It sounds like you’ve had a lot of interesting defensive/tactical training which is awesome. And I think it’s great to get everyone involved in the shooting sports (women, LGBT, etc) but no one here is saying their against that so I’m not sure why that’s being brought up when you’re asking about hot ranges etc. People are giving you honest and good information here because it seems like you’re confusing practical shooting/games with tactical defensive training. USPSA/IDPA/Steel Challenge/Bowling pin matches are GAMES. I realize you may not like the responses here but no one is being dishonest or rude. You need to seek out more of these tactical defensive training classes that you’ve taken. The practical shooting games are not what you seek.
Just my $0.02.
 

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