I just filled out my C&R Application

[Neptune Cat]

Now for some questions:

Am I giving the Government my permission to peruse what's in my gun safe by getting a C&R FFL?

Does anyone have an example of what is required as far as record keeping? If so can you share it with me? I have a copy of a program called Gunsafe. does this program fit the bill?

I already own one C & R elidgeble gun, should this be included in my C & R records?

 

[Dirtypacman]

Here is where to start as these questions have been answered in this thread:

http://northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=104

 

[News Shooter]

Quick answers

Now for some questions:

"Am I giving the Government my permission to peruse what's in my gun safe by getting a C&R FFL?"

Technically yes. Realistically no. The ATF has plenty of other things to do. Just don't abuse it. Follow the rules and you'll be OK

"Does anyone have an example of what is required as far as record keeping? If so can you share it with me? I have a copy of a program called Gunsafe. does this program fit the bill?"

I don't have the website for it but it is a very simple log you could even make up yourself. You can buy them for about $2. You basically just list the description of the gun, serial number and the date bought or sold. I can't remember if you have to list who you bought it from, but I do anyway. My theory is that it is always better to have to much information available than too little

"I already own one C & R elidgeble gun, should this be included in my C & R records?

I would recommend it for the reason stated above. If they ever did decide to do an inventory and you couldn't account for where and how you got it, it might be a problem. Read the previous threads as mentioned and that should answer the questions. Sorry I didn't use the quote function properly

 

[Len-2A Training]

NS, it is Specifically NOT Required per BATFE Regs . . . not until you dispose of it, and the instructions are very clear about how to log it in at that point.

NO, you can't use a computer program as your BB without filing a request to BATFE and getting specific permission. Again, their rules are very clear about this.

 

[News Shooter]

You're right

NS, it is Specifically NOT Required per BATFE Regs . . . not until you dispose of it, and the instructions are very clear about how to log it in at that point.

NO, you can't use a computer program as your BB without filing a request to BATFE and getting specific permission. Again, their rules are very clear about this.

I didn't mean to say it was required, only that I do it personally. Sorry for the confusion and also I though he meant a computer program to print out a hard copy which is OK..but it does need to be a hard copy..I'll stay out of this now

 

[Neptune Cat]

Is this right?

NS, it [a log] is Specifically NOT Required per BATFE Regs . . . not until you dispose of it [the firearm] , and the instructions are very clear about how to log it in at that point.

Am I reading this correctly.

I appologize for not having done the research myself yet, I am just curious about a few points. The thread listed by dirtypacman above is filled with noise and I hope to make time this weekend to wade through it. Also I will study the paperwork I recieve with my license.

Thank you for your replies!!!!!

 

[Dirtypacman]

I already own one C & R elidgeble gun, should this be included in my C & R records?

I would recommend it for the reason stated above. If they ever did decide to do an inventory and you couldn't account for where and how you got it, it might be a problem.

NS, it is Specifically NOT Required per BATFE Regs . . . not until you dispose of it, and the instructions are very clear about how to log it in at that point.

LenS was referring to the question listed above and the answer given by News Shooter.

 

[depicts]

I'm just going to repeat what's been said, to make it extra clear.

If you ALREADY own a C&R gun, you don't need to log it in, but log it out, as Len says.

When you get your license, you WILL have to log in every NEW C&R gun you get.

If you bought a gun on your LTC, that happens to be a C&R gun, and you sell it FTF to another LTC person, I'm not sure if you have to log it when you sell it. Len will probably tell us, but I think it's treated like a standard sale.

 

[Pilgrim]

please delete

 

[Len-2A Training]

BATFE Regs (the books you receive when you get ANY FFL) have a great Q&A section. Browse it and it will answer tons of questions.

YOU are licensed when you get a C&R FFL. Thus, YOU have to follow certain rules that others do not have to follow.

- Regardless of how you purchase a gun, if it is a C&R it MUST be logged in the BB.

- C&R guns owned PRIOR to obtaining a C&R FFL do NOT get logged in until they are disposed of, then they are logged in/out in a specific fashion (read the regs, I don't recall exact wording desired by BATFE).

- If ANY gun is lost/stolen, YOU MUST notify BATFE by an 800 number AND file a form (which is difficult to get ahold of) within xx hours! That is a CONDITION of being a LICENSEE! NOTE: Even if the gun is a modern firearm, this is true according to my reading of the Regs (IANAL). [Also NOTE: MGL requires a FA-10 on ANY lost/stolen gun! Found this info out recently in reading, even I was unaware of it until recently . . . this is true for ALL FID/LTC Holders.]

- If you transfer a handgun, as a C&R FFL you MUST give the dumb-ass Handgun Warning pamphlet (Federal, downloadable from BATFE website) to the person the handgun is transfered to. NOT positive but it looks like if you transfer to another FFL holder this is "probably" not required.

- To use any computer program as your official BB, you need specific permission from BATFE. People have gotten permission to use NMCollector's software, I am unaware of any others or what stipulations they put on you. I use a created spreadsheet printed out and hand-written. I did buy a BB, but have never re-entered everything into it (not even sure that that is legal).

Again, even I don't have all the answers, so I suggest reading or browsing the materials the Feds sent you.

 

[Pilgrim]

Here's the form I use in a binder:

bound book pages

dialup warning ...over 5meg for this pdf file.

 

[vellnueve]

I have the brownells bound book.

I do use the first few pages in it to keep records of everything, and then the rest is designated for C&R transactions. Unforetunately it is mostly empty.

 

[depicts]

Len, I don't mean to drive you crazy, but I'm looking at my books that came with my C&R, and I don't find this exact situation in it. Tell me what you think.

I went to a gun shop yesterday and bought S&W K-22 with my LTC-A.

The dealer made the NICS check, filled out the state forms 4413, instructed me on the use of the pistol, gave me the handgun children's warning, gave me a trigger lock and I went happily on my way.

The K-22 (3d model, 22 Masterpiece) was made from 1946 to 1986.

Does the law expect me to know if it's a C&R qualified gun? It could be 50 years old, or much less than 50.

Are we supposed to check every gun we buy to see if it's on the C&R list?

I know you dissect the laws very well, but if I didn't buy it as a C&R, with a C&R License why do you think I have to log it as such?

I know you want to say.... read the book closer.... but I'm curious what you think.

Bill

BTW, the gun is 1948 according to the serial number, so I'll log it, but think that's being redundant.

 

[vellnueve]

Yes, you need to check every gun you buy on your C&R to make sure it is either 50 or on the list. Everything comes at a price. You receive extra privileges, but it is YOUR responsibility to make sure you comply with the added regulations that you become subject to.

And you have to log it because that's what the law says. C&R licenses are issued to you the individual, so anything you acquire needs to be logged in it. It would actually be more proper for you to treat every acquisition on your C&R.

 

[depicts]

Yes, you need to check every gun you buy on your C&R to make sure it is either 50 or on the list. (My emphasis) Everything comes at a price. You receive extra privileges, but it is YOUR responsibility to make sure you comply with the added regulations that you become subject to.

And you have to log it because that's what the law says. C&R licenses are issued to you the individual, so anything you acquire needs to be logged in it. It would actually be more proper for you to treat every acquisition on your C&R.

vellnueve, had I known when I found the gun that it was 59 years old, I would have purchased it on my C&R. I didn't know, and the dealer didn't know.

I think you might be misunderstanding me though. I didn't buy it on my C&R. I didn't need to know it was over 50 years old, or that it might be on the C&R list. I still don't know if it's on the list.. It was sold as a gun previously owned in Massachusetts, and I bought it with my LTC. The fact that it was made in 1948 was a surprise to me. Like I said, the gun was made until the late 80's and was replaced by the Model 17. It could have been made during any of those years.

I know what you and Len are trying to say, and I'm listening, I really am. Like much of Massachusetts law, in conflict with Federal law, it makes little sense. Since a 4413 purchase form was filled out, and the dealer logged the gun out of his bound book, I would think I would have to deal with the gun the same way.

I'm combing the two or three books that came with my C&R license now, and will try to find specific chapter and verse of the federal law that says I have to record guns purchased on my state LTC in my C&R Bound Book or that says that any gun that is C&R eligible MUST be purchased with a C&R license. Does that mean someone without a C&R couldn't buy that gun ?

Don't stay up late tonight waiting for me to reply though, I think this is going to take some time. In any case all I have to do is write it down and I'm covered either way. And then when, or IF I ever dispose of it, I need to log it out.

It's the crossover of authority and license used that seems a contradiction.

Thanks for your involvement, and LEN, thank you too.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Please read what I stated earlier in this thread.

To repeat:

- YOU ARE LICENSED!! Therefore YOU MUST comply with BATFE Regs/Laws as laid out in the Ts & Cs of being an FFL (even C&R FFL).

- There are dealers who refused to (past tense-KTP) or currently will not recognize a C&R FFL. It is their right and thus they made/make you do the 4473 and FA-10 paperwork, regardless.

- YOU as an FFL must then determine the age of the gun and IF APPLICABLE (on the C&R List or >50) MUST log it in. Failure to do so is a violation of the condition of your license, may result in fines and I suppose could result in legal action by the Feds.

"Them's the rules/laws." Now it is up to you to abide by them or not and if you choose "not" and do get caught, you may be required to pay a price for that decision. The rest is up to you

 

[depicts]

Thanks Len, I guess you've made it quite clear. How you figure that out from all the mumbo jumbo and legalese crap in the laws, I'll never know.

 

[vellnueve]