Hypothetical due to a detour today.

No.

You can possess with written permission from the head of the school. Not the chief of police in the town.

On the detour question, I would just continue to follow the detour and take the risk. I think there's a term for when the police make you break a law that you otherwise wouldn't have; I know it's often misunderstood, but here it might apply.

[shocked][shocked][shocked]

ok, but only because you are a pink pistol.
:eek:
 
If there are no metal detectors to worry about during any given day, why give a damn?
Or just take the Liberal, worry-free, "It'll probably never happen to me" approach, leave your house while unarmed - and beg for your life when the nice helpful policeman detours you to an exit off the highway at 1am... and you end up in a neighborhood that makes Camden NJ or East Los Angeles look like Newton and Wellesley by comparison...and, despite your wife's multiple requests for you to remove it after the 2016 election, you stubbornly left the "TRUMP! MAGA!!!" sticker on the bumper or rear window of the Dodge Ram, inside which you're now furiously reaching over the passenger seat to try to push down the non-automatic door lock button... (as you are pulling up to the red light at the corner of Malcolm X. Boulevard)...

Just sayin'
 
[shocked][shocked][shocked]

ok, but only because you are a pink pistol.
:eek:
Per General Law - Part IV, Title I, Chapter 269, Section 10
(j) For the purposes of this paragraph, ''firearm'' shall mean any pistol, revolver, rifle or smoothbore arm from which a shot, bullet or pellet can be discharged.

Whoever, not being a law enforcement officer and notwithstanding any license obtained by the person pursuant to chapter 140, carries on the person a firearm, loaded or unloaded, or other dangerous weapon in any building or on the grounds of any elementary or secondary school, college or university without the written authorization of the board or officer in charge of the elementary or secondary school, college or university shall be punished by a fine of not more than $1,000 or by imprisonment for not more than 2 years or both. A law enforcement officer may arrest without a warrant and detain a person found carrying a firearm in violation of this paragraph.

Any officer in charge of an elementary or secondary school, college or university or any faculty member or administrative officer of an elementary or secondary school, college or university that fails to report a violation of this paragraph shall be guilty of a misdemeanor and punished by a fine of not more than $500.
Happy?

I understand that there may be some schools (e.g. certain universities) where the responsible person defers this responsibility to a head security officer, such as the chief of their campus police. Even then, the school is granting that access through their chosen proxy.
 
I'm no where near a Len but: I've looked into this a bit as I have 3 little kids. I'm pretty sure if you read the fine print in the MA laws it says you can carry on school grounds with permission from the Chief. I've often thought of asking permission from him, but never broached the subject. So anyways, if a cop (agent for Chief) tells you it's ok, in that circumstance given of the range trip above, I would be fine with it and drive my arsenal through campus.
That's just my .02.

Lol no, the law actually says you need written permission from someone in authority (dean, superintendent, etc) at the "school" in question, although if I played golf with the chief on sundays or something and was reasonably certain of my immunity at that level, that'd be good enough, but it is not precisely what the law says. Only if you're damned sure the chief would prevent your arrest or rugsweep it for you.

ETA: as far as the incidental "detour through the parking lot" thing I would still do the same damned thing though- just not worry about it and get on with life. "these aren't the droids your looking for" should be a default condition not something you worry about. The people that worry too much are the ones that get in trouble. (like for example, that guy in MD that got pulled over and shaken down over a gun he had locked up in the vehicle, mainly because his wife turned into a worrying douche" mode and ran her f***ing mouth.... somewhere around here there's a link to that. ) The guy was acquitted I think but if it wasn't for his wifes armflapping hysterics the whole thing could have been likely dodged or averted. Basically if you break into a cold sweat because a cop detoured you onto school grounds for 5 seconds, you probably shouldn't be carrying.... lol

-Mike
 
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Len can tell you more, but I think that you are ok on the PO property but not inside. Jack.

Sorry, no. Federal case in CO IIRC ruled that you can't have it locked up anywhere on the property either.

I think the OP's bigger concern is what would happen to him should he have an interaction with PD while on the road that passes thru the high school campus and he was carrying.

I think, in part, it will rest on whether or not the road is considered part of the school property or not. For instance, in Lowell, several roads cross thru the UMass Lowell campus but are not actually considered school property, so folks are good to go when carrying on them.

I can tell you that I know a campus cop at one of the state schools (which means they are special state police and can give out MV violations unlike private college campus police) and he claims that his department has arrested and prosecuted people for driving on roadways (including a state highway) that bisect his college campus. He claims that they are campus property. The only way to prove this is going to the town's DPW and look up "who owns" said roadway. If the town/state (but not college) then you are legally GTG, otherwise yes you can be screwed driving on a state highway thru the campus. With marsupial judges and SJW jurors I wouldn't bet on getting off either.

A friend of mine was in that situation on his way home from the range. The police wanted him to take a detour through a school campus. He informed the officer that he had just been at the range and was prohibited from being on the campus with firearms. Officer told him it was 'ok' because he told him it was 'ok'. Friend refused, which pissed off the cops & then had to back his way out of the line of vehicles (guess the officer knew he was right).
If you're instructed by a police officer to do something, you do it. If the police officer instructs you to drive the wrong way down a one way street, you do it. If a police officer instructs you to stop in a "no stopping" zone, you stop.

This isn't any different. If you were told by a police officer to drive through a school parking lot, you do it. "I was told to do it by a lawful order of a police officer" seems like a pretty good affirmative defense.

I would tend to agree with the two above-quoted posts. Unusual? Yes, but I can't even see any cop trying to nail someone when that person was just directed to go that way due to some accident/blockage in the roadway. It just isn't going to happen.

just drive and stop worrying about it, lol. Your odds of winning powerball are better.

Very true.
 
Per General Law - Part IV, Title I, Chapter 269, Section 10
(j) For the purposes of this paragraph, ''firearm'' shall mean any pistol, revolver, rifle or smoothbore arm from which a shot, bullet or pellet can be discharged.

Whoever, not being a law enforcement officer and notwithstanding any license obtained by the person pursuant to chapter 140, carries on the person a firearm, loaded or unloaded, or other dangerous weapon in any building or on the grounds of any elementary or secondary school, college or university without the written authorization of the board or officer in charge of the elementary or secondary school, college or university shall be punished by a fine of not more than $1,000 or by imprisonment for not more than 2 years or both. A law enforcement officer may arrest without a warrant and detain a person found carrying a firearm in violation of this paragraph.

Any officer in charge of an elementary or secondary school, college or university or any faculty member or administrative officer of an elementary or secondary school, college or university that fails to report a violation of this paragraph shall be guilty of a misdemeanor and punished by a fine of not more than $500.
Happy?

I understand that there may be some schools (e.g. certain universities) where the responsible person defers this responsibility to a head security officer, such as the chief of their campus police. Even then, the school is granting that access through their chosen proxy.


[laugh]
Yes, thank you.

I stand corrected. [smile]
 
But that judge that stated that even with an LTC one can't even have a spent shell casing in a MV on a college campus.
Was that dicta or a finding after argument by both sides?

From what I see, this charge generally gets dropped when defense counsel points out what the law says ..... and then the charge is refiled as unsafe storage.
 
If i had a dollar for every time I (hypothetically) picked up or dropped off a child at school while carrying, or (hypothetically) went in to drop something off and locked my firearm in a safe in the car, I could (hypothetically) retire.

There are two easy ways to get jacked up for carrying on school property:
  1. Get made while storing the firearm in the trunk (or retrieving it before you drive away).
  2. For your child to run their mouth at school.
There are more anecdotes on NES whinging about having to access the trunk off-campus,
than there are about how NESers either set their kids straight,
or keep them utterly in the dark about when they carry.


You've established elsewhere the point is moot for you.
I'm just sayin', for people playing along at home.


I can tell you that I know a campus cop at one of the state schools (which means they are special state police and can give out MV violations unlike private college campus police) and he claims that his department has arrested and prosecuted people for driving on roadways (including a state highway) that bisect his college campus. He claims that they are campus property.

Pro-tip: if the school closes every such road at least once every 365 days to re-establish their ownership and extinguish any public rights-of-way, then they own the road. (Or the town fathers are incredibly weak).

Otherwise, the school doesn't own the road,
or they own the road but an easement by prescription may have been created
through their past negligence.

(Well, unless the way the school closes the road is by setting piles of tires on fire
and guarding the fires with armed police; then they may not actually own it).

My college closed all the gates annually for 24 hours on a Sunday during the January intersession.
Campus police wouldn't even admit pedestrians unless they could show college ID.

Harvard Yard would be the paradigm example of a good place to play that game.
Oh look:

What is a prescriptive easement? ... if a person openly, continuously (for at least 20 years), exclusively, adversely and notoriously treats a property as if he, she or they owned it, an ownership of adverse possession may be created and the person who has done all the aforesaid things may end up the owner of property because of this long-standing pattern of behavior. Similarly, if a person does all of the things set forth above with respect to a foot-path or a driveway for a long period of time, that person may have established a “prescriptive easement” to continue the use involved. That is the reason that once every year, all of the gates in Harvard Yard in Cambridge, Massachusetts are locked so as to show that there is one date when passing through Harvard Yard is not permitted, and, thereby no prescriptive easement is established.

Feel free to taunt your buddy with the spectre that they've lost control of their property.
 
Was that dicta or a finding after argument by both sides?

From what I see, this charge generally gets dropped when defense counsel points out what the law says ..... and then the charge is refiled as unsafe storage.
IIRC it was dicta, but I would expect other MA Marsupials to run with it too.
Comm v. Jason Whitehead, MA Appeals Ct # 12-P-1970, ammo in car on college campus case. [C. 269 S. 10j]
 
If you're instructed by a police officer to do something, you do it. If the police officer instructs you to drive the wrong way down a one way street, you do it. If a police officer instructs you to stop in a "no stopping" zone, you stop.

This isn't any different. If you were told by a police officer to drive through a school parking lot, you do it. "I was told to do it by a lawful order of a police officer" seems like a pretty good affirmative defense.

If the police officer told you to murder someone, do you think that would make it legal for you to murder someone?

There is no law that says a police officer can order you to break the law and that takes you off the hook. It doesn't work that way.
 
There is no law that says a police officer can order you to break the law and that takes you off the hook. It doesn't work that way.

Yeah there is, it's called entrapment by estoppel, look into it. It doesn't perfectly apply here, though, obviously. In terms of legal mechanics this gets pretty complicated, but at least in this circumstance I can see this being an
extraordinary circumstance that easily brings "reasonable person" legal construct into play. For example, if a reasonable person had NO INTENTION of driving his carried gun onto school grounds, yet, was directed to do so by the
firm order of a police officer, one would think that would provide some excuse. Particularly if there was literally no opportunity or a likely negative outcome for trying to bail out, etc.

Even a liberal jury would suck for that, IMO. Of course in MA the problem is having enough money to get it to that point. Most people suck for a plea deal etc.

Given all of the miasma above, given this situation as posited by the OP, you're better off rolling the dice and playing like Obi Wan.... because the reality is, people who play the gray man, are usually
ignored.

-Mike
 
Yeah there is, it's called entrapment by estoppel, look into it. It doesn't perfectly apply here, though, obviously.
Entrapment by estoppel

Learn something new every day :)

However, I'm not convinced that would apply here. In order for this to apply, the defendant would have to argue that the official tried to convince him that the action was legal. If the police officer merely directed him to drive through a school grounds, without knowledge that he was carrying, then he couldn't invoke this defense because the officer didn't try to convince him that carrying on school grounds was legal - in fact the officer had no way of knowing that he was carrying at all, and the officer might argue that he would have directed him elsewhere had he known.

If the officer told him to go into a school zone, and the driver says "officer, I can't go because I have a weapon," and the officer said "go there anyway, It's ok because I said so," and the man does, and then the officer arrests him for it...then the entrapment by estoppel would probably work...
 
If the police officer told you to murder someone, do you think that would make it legal for you to murder someone?

There is no law that says a police officer can order you to break the law and that takes you off the hook. It doesn't work that way.

That's a reductio ad absurdum argument, and it's bogus.

There are *lots* of times where you are required to follow the instructions of a police officer rather than the black-letter reading of the law. Traffic routing is a *VERY* clear example. For instance, if there's an accident blocking one lane and the emergency vehicles need the space around it, officers will frequently direct traffic *ACROSS A DOUBLE YELLOW LINE*, which is explicitly forbidden by statute. But you must do it, because you are instructed to by a police officer.
 
I'm no where near a Len but: I've looked into this a bit as I have 3 little kids. I'm pretty sure if you read the fine print in the MA laws it says you can carry on school grounds with permission from the Chief. I've often thought of asking permission from him, but never broached the subject. So anyways, if a cop (agent for Chief) tells you it's ok, in that circumstance given of the range trip above, I would be fine with it and drive my arsenal through campus.
That's just my .02.

False. COP has no authority to authorize a civilian to carry on the person on school grounds. G.L. ch. 269, sec. 10(j):

"Whoever, not being a law enforcement officer and notwithstanding any license obtained by the person pursuant to chapter 140, carries on the person a firearm, loaded or unloaded, or other dangerous weapon in any building or on the grounds of any elementary or secondary school, college or university without the written authorization of the board or officer in charge of the elementary or secondary school, college or university shall be punished by a fine of not more than $1,000 or by imprisonment for not more than 2 years or both. A law enforcement officer may arrest without a warrant and detain a person found carrying a firearm in violation of this paragraph."

Emphasis added.

A fortiori, if COP can't authorize on person carry on school grounds, neither can a junior officer.
 
Legal as long as the gun was locked up before you entered school grounds, i.e. you didn't handle it at all on school property. However, massprudence...
It is "carry on ones person" that is proscribed in MGL 260 - 10(j).
 
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