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Hypothetical due to a detour today.

Discussion in 'Massachusetts Laws' started by Darksideblues42, Oct 9, 2018.

  1. PaulR

    PaulR NES Member

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    [shocked][shocked][shocked]

    ok, but only because you are a pink pistol.
    :eek:
     

  2. GlockJock

    GlockJock NES Member

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    If there are no metal detectors to worry about during any given day, why give a damn?
    Or just take the Liberal, worry-free, "It'll probably never happen to me" approach, leave your house while unarmed - and beg for your life when the nice helpful policeman detours you to an exit off the highway at 1am... and you end up in a neighborhood that makes Camden NJ or East Los Angeles look like Newton and Wellesley by comparison...and, despite your wife's multiple requests for you to remove it after the 2016 election, you stubbornly left the "TRUMP! MAGA!!!" sticker on the bumper or rear window of the Dodge Ram, inside which you're now furiously reaching over the passenger seat to try to push down the non-automatic door lock button... (as you are pulling up to the red light at the corner of Malcolm X. Boulevard)...

    Just sayin'
     
  3. M1911

    M1911 Moderator NES Member

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    Moved to the MA gun laws forum where it belongs.
     
  4. Mesatchornug

    Mesatchornug

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    Per General Law - Part IV, Title I, Chapter 269, Section 10
    (j) For the purposes of this paragraph, ''firearm'' shall mean any pistol, revolver, rifle or smoothbore arm from which a shot, bullet or pellet can be discharged.

    Whoever, not being a law enforcement officer and notwithstanding any license obtained by the person pursuant to chapter 140, carries on the person a firearm, loaded or unloaded, or other dangerous weapon in any building or on the grounds of any elementary or secondary school, college or university without the written authorization of the board or officer in charge of the elementary or secondary school, college or university shall be punished by a fine of not more than $1,000 or by imprisonment for not more than 2 years or both. A law enforcement officer may arrest without a warrant and detain a person found carrying a firearm in violation of this paragraph.

    Any officer in charge of an elementary or secondary school, college or university or any faculty member or administrative officer of an elementary or secondary school, college or university that fails to report a violation of this paragraph shall be guilty of a misdemeanor and punished by a fine of not more than $500.
    Happy?

    I understand that there may be some schools (e.g. certain universities) where the responsible person defers this responsibility to a head security officer, such as the chief of their campus police. Even then, the school is granting that access through their chosen proxy.
     
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  5. drgrant

    drgrant Moderator NES Member

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    Lol no, the law actually says you need written permission from someone in authority (dean, superintendent, etc) at the "school" in question, although if I played golf with the chief on sundays or something and was reasonably certain of my immunity at that level, that'd be good enough, but it is not precisely what the law says. Only if you're damned sure the chief would prevent your arrest or rugsweep it for you.

    ETA: as far as the incidental "detour through the parking lot" thing I would still do the same damned thing though- just not worry about it and get on with life. "these aren't the droids your looking for" should be a default condition not something you worry about. The people that worry too much are the ones that get in trouble. (like for example, that guy in MD that got pulled over and shaken down over a gun he had locked up in the vehicle, mainly because his wife turned into a worrying douche" mode and ran her f***ing mouth.... somewhere around here there's a link to that. ) The guy was acquitted I think but if it wasn't for his wifes armflapping hysterics the whole thing could have been likely dodged or averted. Basically if you break into a cold sweat because a cop detoured you onto school grounds for 5 seconds, you probably shouldn't be carrying.... lol

    -Mike
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2018
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  6. Len-2A Training

    Len-2A Training Instructor Instructor NES Life Member NES Member

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    Sorry, no. Federal case in CO IIRC ruled that you can't have it locked up anywhere on the property either.

    I can tell you that I know a campus cop at one of the state schools (which means they are special state police and can give out MV violations unlike private college campus police) and he claims that his department has arrested and prosecuted people for driving on roadways (including a state highway) that bisect his college campus. He claims that they are campus property. The only way to prove this is going to the town's DPW and look up "who owns" said roadway. If the town/state (but not college) then you are legally GTG, otherwise yes you can be screwed driving on a state highway thru the campus. With marsupial judges and SJW jurors I wouldn't bet on getting off either.

    I would tend to agree with the two above-quoted posts. Unusual? Yes, but I can't even see any cop trying to nail someone when that person was just directed to go that way due to some accident/blockage in the roadway. It just isn't going to happen.

    Very true.
     
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  7. PaulR

    PaulR NES Member

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    [laugh]
    Yes, thank you.

    I stand corrected. [smile]
     
  8. namedpipes

    namedpipes NES Member

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    Yes.
     
  9. Rob Boudrie

    Rob Boudrie NES Member

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    269-10j bans carry "on the person", not transport in a trunk.
     
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  10. Len-2A Training

    Len-2A Training Instructor Instructor NES Life Member NES Member

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    In your case, I fully understand why they did that!

    But that judge that stated that even with an LTC one can't even have a spent shell casing in a MV on a college campus.
     
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  11. Rob Boudrie

    Rob Boudrie NES Member

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    Was that dicta or a finding after argument by both sides?

    From what I see, this charge generally gets dropped when defense counsel points out what the law says ..... and then the charge is refiled as unsafe storage.
     
  12. AHM

    AHM NES Member

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    There are two easy ways to get jacked up for carrying on school property:
    1. Get made while storing the firearm in the trunk (or retrieving it before you drive away).
    2. For your child to run their mouth at school.
    There are more anecdotes on NES whinging about having to access the trunk off-campus,
    than there are about how NESers either set their kids straight,
    or keep them utterly in the dark about when they carry.


    You've established elsewhere the point is moot for you.
    I'm just sayin', for people playing along at home.


    Pro-tip: if the school closes every such road at least once every 365 days to re-establish their ownership and extinguish any public rights-of-way, then they own the road. (Or the town fathers are incredibly weak).

    Otherwise, the school doesn't own the road,
    or they own the road but an easement by prescription may have been created
    through their past negligence.

    (Well, unless the way the school closes the road is by setting piles of tires on fire
    and guarding the fires with armed police; then they may not actually own it).

    My college closed all the gates annually for 24 hours on a Sunday during the January intersession.
    Campus police wouldn't even admit pedestrians unless they could show college ID.

    Harvard Yard would be the paradigm example of a good place to play that game.
    Oh look:

    Feel free to taunt your buddy with the spectre that they've lost control of their property.
     
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  13. Len-2A Training

    Len-2A Training Instructor Instructor NES Life Member NES Member

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    IIRC it was dicta, but I would expect other MA Marsupials to run with it too.
    Comm v. Jason Whitehead, MA Appeals Ct # 12-P-1970, ammo in car on college campus case. [C. 269 S. 10j]
     
  14. jungley

    jungley

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    If the police officer told you to murder someone, do you think that would make it legal for you to murder someone?

    There is no law that says a police officer can order you to break the law and that takes you off the hook. It doesn't work that way.
     
  15. drgrant

    drgrant Moderator NES Member

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    Yeah there is, it's called entrapment by estoppel, look into it. It doesn't perfectly apply here, though, obviously. In terms of legal mechanics this gets pretty complicated, but at least in this circumstance I can see this being an
    extraordinary circumstance that easily brings "reasonable person" legal construct into play. For example, if a reasonable person had NO INTENTION of driving his carried gun onto school grounds, yet, was directed to do so by the
    firm order of a police officer, one would think that would provide some excuse. Particularly if there was literally no opportunity or a likely negative outcome for trying to bail out, etc.

    Even a liberal jury would suck for that, IMO. Of course in MA the problem is having enough money to get it to that point. Most people suck for a plea deal etc.

    Given all of the miasma above, given this situation as posited by the OP, you're better off rolling the dice and playing like Obi Wan.... because the reality is, people who play the gray man, are usually
    ignored.

    -Mike
     
  16. jungley

    jungley

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    Entrapment by estoppel

    Learn something new every day :)

    However, I'm not convinced that would apply here. In order for this to apply, the defendant would have to argue that the official tried to convince him that the action was legal. If the police officer merely directed him to drive through a school grounds, without knowledge that he was carrying, then he couldn't invoke this defense because the officer didn't try to convince him that carrying on school grounds was legal - in fact the officer had no way of knowing that he was carrying at all, and the officer might argue that he would have directed him elsewhere had he known.

    If the officer told him to go into a school zone, and the driver says "officer, I can't go because I have a weapon," and the officer said "go there anyway, It's ok because I said so," and the man does, and then the officer arrests him for it...then the entrapment by estoppel would probably work...
     
  17. milktree

    milktree NES Member

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    That's a reductio ad absurdum argument, and it's bogus.

    There are *lots* of times where you are required to follow the instructions of a police officer rather than the black-letter reading of the law. Traffic routing is a *VERY* clear example. For instance, if there's an accident blocking one lane and the emergency vehicles need the space around it, officers will frequently direct traffic *ACROSS A DOUBLE YELLOW LINE*, which is explicitly forbidden by statute. But you must do it, because you are instructed to by a police officer.
     
  18. RKG

    RKG NES Member

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    False. COP has no authority to authorize a civilian to carry on the person on school grounds. G.L. ch. 269, sec. 10(j):

    "Whoever, not being a law enforcement officer and notwithstanding any license obtained by the person pursuant to chapter 140, carries on the person a firearm, loaded or unloaded, or other dangerous weapon in any building or on the grounds of any elementary or secondary school, college or university without the written authorization of the board or officer in charge of the elementary or secondary school, college or university shall be punished by a fine of not more than $1,000 or by imprisonment for not more than 2 years or both. A law enforcement officer may arrest without a warrant and detain a person found carrying a firearm in violation of this paragraph."

    Emphasis added.

    A fortiori, if COP can't authorize on person carry on school grounds, neither can a junior officer.
     
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  19. Rob Boudrie

    Rob Boudrie NES Member

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    It is "carry on ones person" that is proscribed in MGL 260 - 10(j).
     

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