How to Prepare For A Red Flag Confiscation Order At Your House

jrpascucci

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It seems like the arguments against active resistance are being made based on practicality - either you have too much to lose, or you will embolden our enemies. The goal of these are to enervate the two groups that are most likely to resist: family men and loudmouth ideologues, both of whom assume most other people are mostly the same as they are.

People who live for things that are bigger than themselves - principals, religion - don't need to concern themselves about the first (virtue is baked into struggle - jihad or crusade - and there is even virtue in losing a battle while prosecuting the larger war). For the second, cowardice emboldens an enemy worse than any possible resistance. It is not cowardly to resist an unjust aggressor - it is a moral necessity.

The civil war that we are presently undergoing is between two groups, and it crosses party lines: (to paraphrase Heinlein) those who want other people controlled (and, by extension, implicitly want to be in control) versus those who have neither inclination. It is literally neighbor versus neighbor, in a way it wasn't during the first Civil War.

The measure of a man isn't primarily how he acts when "they come for him". It's how he acts when "they come for the Jews" (metaphorically). At this point, everyone has to ask themselves - have we passed that red line yet?

As for those who consider recourse to the law important: abortion was the 'divide-by-zero' for the modern legal structure. Like in mathematics, if you allow divide by zero, it breaks the structure. Once you decide it's okay to execute some unwanted, inconvenient innocents - our Jews - it's not a slippery slope to surmise the same logic applies to pretty much anyone who is unwanted and inconvenient, innocent or not.

The major difference is, a fetus can't shoot back.

Tyranny is never about the head, front-man tyrant - whether an AG choosing to usurp freedom, or the likely next Democratic President. It's really about the many petits tyrans who support, participate, and benefit from being in the regime. Some - perhaps even most - do so out of ignorance, but too many - especially those who are moral actors, actively participating - do so because it is seen to benefit them disproportionately. Towing the line - or tightening the noose - is their way to 'get ahead'.

So, we have a well-worn path: first, you must defend against a tyranny, which entails the blood of patriots. You are familiar with the rest of that path.

Let's not make the mistake that we're in a time of history that has no meaning, that everything is business-as-usual, that life just 'goes on'. Also, let us not take heed of the drum-beat message - psyops in a cultural war - that has been drilled into us: "we're not the greatest generation". Let us instead say "maybe...but maybe just not yet."
 
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M60

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I’m no expert but I would think offering to produce items to be seized to your door step would green light entering your home without a warrant...and may hold up....(not that it really matters)

I probably just would even answer the door in the firstplace if this was even a concern to me....

I’d like to think my local police would know it’s all bullshit... allow me to produce my NFA stuff that isn’t in a trust and can’t be possessed by anyone else. And allow the rest of my stuff to be held by other LTC holders....
I don’t expect black helicopters, hell i don’t even expect the ATF to show up.... but would likely cause me to have to go to them at some point...

While these orders will be used/abused to inconvenience (ruin) a lot of good people.... even if it inconveniences one nutjob it won’t stop one act of violence and if anything it may just push a couple nitjobs over the edge judging by what I’ve read in this thread.... I post some pretty dumb shit,but all the shoot first type posts are likely the people who will expience these ordered first hand.... I guess then we’ll be able to see what’s, what.

No way, under these conditions, am I walking toward cops, at my door, with any gun, or guns, in my hand or hands. I'd rather live, to see tomorrow.
 

MGnoob

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No way, under these conditions, am I walking toward cops, at my door, with any gun, or guns, in my hand or hands. I'd rather live, to see tomorrow.
I kind of get what you’re saying... i don’t know you but it’s always entertaining hearing about people saying what they would do.... when I’ve been through it..... you’ve never dealt with the police and firearms? It’s half the reason I believe in open carry.... I don’t want the authority’s worrying about what I might have..... seeing is believing....
 

M60

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I kind of get what you’re saying... i don’t know you but it’s always entertaining hearing about people saying what they would do.... when I’ve been through it..... you’ve never dealt with the police and firearms? It’s half the reason I believe in open carry.... I don’t want the authority’s worrying about what I might have..... seeing is believing....
Yes, I have been through dealing with local police. The night that Desert Storm began and before I knew about it, I was returning, home with a AR15 purchase in the car. Cops were spooked. Especially the National Guard members. Anyway, I got stopped for not coming to a complete stop at a stop sign. Cop asks If I'm Carrying. I say, "Yes officer, I am carrying". He asks why. I ask if it's a problem for some reason. He tells me we just went to war tonight and everyone is a little on edge. Then he calls for backup. Backup arrives. My berretta goes from the officer who stopped me, to the back up idiot, and he is asked to empty the ammo. Backup cop idiot doesn't know what he's doing since our town cops carried revolvers at the time. Then he takes the AR and slams it on the roof of my car, in the rain and says, "you better have papers for this". Now I'm pissed. First officerapologizes for idiot cop and tells him to give me back my handgun. Idiot cop inserts the magazine and releases the slide which chambers a round. He aims the gun at me, finger on the trigger, round in the chamber, hammer cocked and says, here's your handgun. I put my hands up, VERY SLOWLY. He says put your hands down. I say officer, your finger is on the trigger, the hammer is cocked, you pointing my gun, at my chest and my hands are not coming down. Other cop says give it to me slowly. He hits the decocker and says he's sorry. All this time we're standing in the rain and the AR15 is soaked, on the car roof. I'm not giving them another excuse, to point their Glocks at me, so to answer your question, I have dealt with police and firearms and perhaps you have not dealt with them enough to know that there are cops, who absolutely, do not know what they are doing and that's not good for your health record. I wasn't entertained, as you say, but I was definitely detained.
 
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Reptile

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If I get an ERPO - I know I could fight it in court - UNLESS I do something REALLY stupid.

If I am in the right - what does NES say about this procedure:

The cops show up with their papers in hand to take all my guns. They show me the papers and they WILL get the guns one way or another...

Me: "I know I have no choice but to comply with your confiscation order. I am inclined to have this go as smoothly as possible without you turning my house upside down. Can you please pull up your van next to the garage? I will pile up all my guns and ammo - in cases if you don't mind so you can take it away without damaging my guns. I will not let you in my home without a search warrant, but I will bring my guns and ammo out to you."

Cops: "Well Mr. Reptile, you have always been reasonable and I know you realize the gravity of this situation. We'll meet you out back."

Over the next 2 hours I make a big pile of guns (in cases) and maybe 2000lbs of ammunition. They take it all away.


At this very moment, I do not see any other way to deal with an ERPO or Red Flag Order.

Is there a better way for me to assert my rights against an illegal search but at the same time not physically resisting the SWAT team?
 
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M60

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If I get an ERPO - I know I could fight it in court - UNLESS I do something REALLY stupid.

If I am in the right - what does NES say about this procedure:

The cops show up with their papers in hand to take all my guns. They show me the papers and they WILL get the guns one way or another...

Me: "I know I have no choice but to comply with your confiscation order. I am inclined to have this go as smoothly as possible without you turning my house upside down. Can you please pull up your van next to the garage? I will pile up all my guns and ammo - in cases if you don't mind so you can take it away without damaging my guns. I will not let you in my home without a search warrant, but I will bring my guns and ammo out to you."

Cops: "Well Mr. Reptile, you have always been reasonable and I know you realize the gravity of this situation. We'll meet you out back."

Over the next 2 hours I make a big pile of guns (in cases) and maybe 2000lbs of ammunition. They take it all away.


At this very moment, I do not see any other way to deal with an ERPO or Red Flag Order.

Is there a better way for me to assert my rights against an illegal search but at the same time not physically resisting the SWAT team?
Your theory here, that which you believe to be fact, isn't fact at all. If the police are court ordered, to come for your guns, the paperwork will obviously, also allow them to enter your home, in an effort to successfully retrieve your firearms.
 
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Reptile

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Your theory here, that which believe to be fact, isn't fact at all. If the police are court ordered, to come for your guns, the paperwork will obviously, also allow them to enter your home, in an effort to successfully retrieve your firearms.
Ok.

What about the people who have hundreds of guns? Thousands of magazines? 2000 lbs of ammo?

Is there any way to have it collected and removed to prevent damage? Can they put the guns in cases?

Do they come in and go room to room searching for goods like the gestapo?

What is the difference in the treatment of these to people:

Person #1. Guy only has one gun. Do they come in and tear his house apart or can they just collect it at the door?

Person #2. This guy has a hundred guns. The police have no idea. He might have a big house and maybe he is holding some back under the floor boards. Can you just hand them over and they leave?

Can Comm2a file a FOIA to find the actual official procedure for acting on a ERPO Red Flag order?

Keep in mind that gun owners who have a hint of an ERPO are going to transport everything out of state ahead of time. Then what?
 
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headednorth

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I wouldnt think theyll trust you to hand them over. In fact Id be surprised if they even let you touch them when theyre there. Theyre coming in and theyll probably cuff you "for your safety and theirs" (spoiler-its entirely for theirs) and then toss your stuff into the back of a pickup like its firewood. If you have a lot of stuff theyll make multiple trips.
 

M60

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Ok.

What about the people who have hundreds of guns? Thousands of magazines? 2000 lbs of ammo?

Is there any way to have it collected and removed to prevent damage? Can they put the guns in cases?

Do they come in and go room to room searching for goods like the gestapo?

What is the difference in the treatment of these to people:

Person #1. Guy only has one gun. Do they come in and tear his house apart or can they just collect it at the door?

Person #2. This guy has a hundred guns. The police have no idea. He might have a big house and maybe he is holding some back under the floor boards. Can you just hand them over and they leave?

Can Comm2a file a FOIA to find the actual official procedure for acting on a ERPO Red Flag order?

Keep in mind that gun owners who have a hint of an ERPO are going to transport everything out of state ahead of time. Then what?
I don't have all of the answers. It's so new that I'm not sure that anyone does have all of the answers. I know one thing for sure. If you have 2000 pounds of ammo in Ma., you'd better more than just a LTC.
The police always have an idea of how many guns you have. They only have to push a button to know. Their information may or may not be exact, but they'll be pretty close.
 

M60

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I wouldnt think theyll trust you to hand them over. In fact Id be surprised if they even let you touch them when theyre there. Theyre coming in and theyll probably cuff you "for your safety and theirs" (spoiler-its entirely for theirs) and then toss your stuff into the back of a pickup like its firewood. If you have a lot of stuff theyll make multiple trips.
Scratchless, firearms handling isn't a specialty of the police. Collecting your guns as quickly as possible is a police specialty. If they come for your guns, expect some scratching and dings. That way you won't be surprised when it happens.
 

Reptile

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I don't have all of the answers. It's so new that I'm not sure that anyone does have all of the answers. I know one thing for sure. If you have 2000 pounds of ammo in Ma., you'd better more than just a LTC.
The police always have an idea of how many guns you have. They only have to push a button to know. Their information may or may not be exact, but they'll be pretty close.
We'll have to see how this plays out in the future.

I know there are some people who have lots of ammo. 2000 lbs? Ok, maybe not but its heavy.

I got a list from the state about the guns they think I have.

I don't even own those guns anymore.

I think what this may come down to is whether of not you know of the ERPO possibility.
At that point you just take everything to NH.

You have the right to remain silent.

I doubt they will send a dump truck up to NH to collect your guns from a place where they don't know they are at.
 

slipknot

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The best way to prepare for this is to work to ensure that no red flag law gets passed in your state......
I already did that but due to multiple boneheads we have as elected officials, I failed to accomplish my objective. Therefore I will simple remain a good person and continue to see to it that I do not piss anyone off.
I’m the event a mistake is made and I somehow get red flagged, the advice in the OP seems reasonable.
 

slipknot

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I do however believe it should not be unreasonable to ask if I can retain my $2000 riflescopes as it is just 2 nuts to remove. I don’t need those being damaged or never being returned as they are not firearms.
 

namedpipes

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I do however believe it should not be unreasonable to ask if I can retain my $2000 riflescopes as it is just 2 nuts to remove. I don’t need those being damaged or never being returned as they are not firearms.
The paranoid in me would suggest disassembling all the guns and storing the serialized "firearm components" (AR lowers. etc) in your home and everything else in a separate, undisclosed location.

I'm skeptical that this would work, but it would be amusing.
 

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Just curious...in the case of a Red Flag Order, would the police have access to insurance records where all firearms in one's possession might be itemized, whereas not all of them may show up on the state's database? I would sure hope not.

And would such a confiscation order cover antique firearms, especially percussion and flintlock varieties?


Frank
 

namedpipes

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Just curious...in the case of a Red Flag Order, would the police have access to insurance records where all firearms in one's possession might be itemized, whereas not all of them may show up on the state's database? I would sure hope not.

And would such a confiscation order cover antique firearms, especially percussion and flintlock varieties?


Frank
In Massachusetts, those are not firearms and would not be subject to an ERPO order, so the police would have no choice but to take all of them anyway, including all supplies and anything peripherally related in any way to firearms whether or not defined as such in law.
 

pinefd

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...and if my hands and feet are registered as lethal weapons, will they be subject to confiscation as well?

o_O

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I don’t think folks are paying attention here.

They are grabbing everything. They grab knives. They grab airguns. They grab batons. They grab body armor. They grab gun parts...

You better believe the 2k scopes are going too.
 
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amm5061

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In Massachusetts, those are not firearms and would not be subject to an ERPO order, so the police would have no choice but to take all of them anyway, including all supplies and anything peripherally related in any way to firearms whether or not defined as such in law.
Don't forget the stump in your back yard, your broken vise, and any cash you may have in your house or on your person!
 

swatgig

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If I get an ERPO - I know I could fight it in court - UNLESS I do something REALLY stupid.

If I am in the right - what does NES say about this procedure:

The cops show up with their papers in hand to take all my guns. They show me the papers and they WILL get the guns one way or another...

Me: "I know I have no choice but to comply with your confiscation order. I am inclined to have this go as smoothly as possible without you turning my house upside down. Can you please pull up your van next to the garage? I will pile up all my guns and ammo - in cases if you don't mind so you can take it away without damaging my guns. I will not let you in my home without a search warrant, but I will bring my guns and ammo out to you."

Cops: "Well Mr. Reptile, you have always been reasonable and I know you realize the gravity of this situation. We'll meet you out back."

Over the next 2 hours I make a big pile of guns (in cases) and maybe 2000lbs of ammunition. They take it all away.


At this very moment, I do not see any other way to deal with an ERPO or Red Flag Order.

Is there a better way for me to assert my rights against an illegal search but at the same time not physically resisting the SWAT team?
The police will ask you to step outside, and will not let you back inside to get the guns. They will keep you outside until you are able to have the guns brought outside by someone else. It may be the police or it may be someone else, but it won't be you.
 

Reptile

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The police will ask you to step outside, and will not let you back inside to get the guns. They will keep you outside until you are able to have the guns brought outside by someone else. It may be the police or it may be someone else, but it won't be you.
I guess I would be compelled to give them the safe combo. Only I can open my safe because it's rather persnickety, though. What about biometrics safes?

Sounds like they will tear the whole house apart since I can't be there to show them where the stuff is.

That could be a good thing.

Do I have the right to remain silent?
 

Reptile

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No. No right to remain silent in Mass. Cuz Gunz.

They'll probably let you open the safe, then back away as soon as it's open so they can grab all the good stuff.
You seem to know lots about this swatgig.

What about if I take everything to another state the day before to keep at my friends house?

I would suspect that everything would be safe there, correct?
 

HorizontalHunter

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You seem to know lots about this swatgig.

What about if I take everything to another state the day before to keep at my friends house?

I would suspect that everything would be safe there, correct?
I’m sure that they would request that the police department carry out the order. Whether they would or not is another thing.

Bob
 

TayNinh_66

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Do they also take non-firearm items? Muzzleloaders, pellet rifles, other accessories?
In theory, MGL 140 s 121 exempts firearms made before 1899 and replicas so an order to seize firearms would not apply. In other words black powder firearms are exempt. In practice I can't imagine a cop sorting out muzzies from AR's. They are all going in the back of the truck. Sort it out later. Note that any kind of bullet or propellant powder is subject to seizure.
 

TayNinh_66

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What happens when there are multiple firearm owners in a residence? My LTC, Wife, LTC, kids FIDs....
All firearms in the listed residence will be seized. If someone else claims ownership they will have to prove it via documents such as original purchase receipts. Their firearms will be returned but they can not be stored at the listed residence.
I am guessing that local PD will have a list from FRB. If half of the firearms are missing (stored in NH) I suspect you will in front of the judge very quickly. As previously mentioned, failure to report a lost firearm will result in loss of LTC (MA) and if 3 or more firearms are involved it's a felony.
 
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Reptile

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All firearms in the listed residence will be seized. If someone else claims ownership they will have to prove it via documents such as original purchase receipts. Their firearms will be returned but they can not be stored at the listed residence.
I am guessing that local PD will have a list from FRB. If half of the firearms are missing (stored in NH) I suspect you will in front of the judge very quickly. As previously mentioned, failure to report a lost firearm will result in loss of LTC (MA) and if 3 or more firearms are involved it's a felony.
I guess I should save some time and not store out of state. I have a feeling coming before the judge - he'd want me to go get them back to Massachusetts.
 
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