How quiet is 5.56 suppressed - is it even worth it?

[LakeTrout]

It’s not about reliability. Suppressed DI guns get dirty and dry very quickly. Suppressors also accelerate wear on DI internals aggressively, even with stiffer buffer springs and heavier buffers. Flow through cans mitigate this dramatically, but at the expensive of increased sound, which defeats a lot of the purpose of the suppressor. A piston gun with an adjustable gas block and can will run nonstop suppressed. A DI gun will not. I also spend way less time f***ing with buffers/springs with piston guns vs DI guns. With my DI guns, I have to remember what buffer/spring combos I have in which lowers when swapping on uppers.

As far as I can tell, you’re right about all
Of this and seem to know much more than I do about the topic. I will say though that my experience is only with DI. And only with gas systems that are tuned for the suppressor with an adjustable gas block. Particularly, the bleed off style. And on those setups, a lot of the above problems are mitigated a great deal. No need to mess with buffers and springs. Not nearly as much gas coming back in your face. Decreases the extra wear and tear that otherwise would happen with an overgassed system, etc.

Oh, also noise reduction at the gas port. Which is nice.

 

[dcmdon]

I've got a question for some of you more experienced suppressor owners.

Can anyone suggest a serviceable can that has the universal hubs thread for 22lr? I do not want to put together a dedicated 22lr upper. I've heard that people will use servicable 9mm cans to shoot 22lr with a conversion kit.

I have seen that the Griffin Resistance 22 is a serviceable can with univeral hub threads but can't find it in stock anywhere.

Since .22LR, 9mm, and .223 all normally use a 1/2 x 28 thread you can use any of them on all of them with the following common sense constraints.

1) A 9mm or .22 LR can will blow up if you use it on a .223
2) A 9mm bullet won't fit through a .22 or .223 can.
3) A .22LR will work fine with a 9mm or .223 can but .22 LR is filthy compared to the other two. You need to be able to take a .22 LR can apart so you can clean it.

Which leads me to another point. My 9mm can works great with a .22 LR. It's an old Gemtec and can be taken apart.

Yes, you lose some suppression because the baffles and exit aperture are sized for 9mm, but 9mm cans tend to be larger volume and I've been quite satisfied with how it worked.

If you can't find a can that meets your description, a simple 9mm can that can be disassembled may meet your need.

The other consideration is weight. My .22 can originally weighed 4 oz. My 9mm can is 3 or 4 times as much. If your intent is to use it on a .22 pistol then the 9mm can is too heavy to maintain any kind of reasonable balance for the gun.

One other thing. I've found the Ruger 22/45 LITE line of pistols to be fantastic .22 suppressor hosts. With almost no weight forward of the receiver, they can take a decent sized can and still handle normally.

Ruger® Mark IV™ 22/45™ Lite Rimfire Pistol Models

ruger.com

 

[dcmdon]

As far as I can tell, you’re right about all
Of this and seem to know much more than I do about the topic. I will say though that my experience is only with DI. And only with gas systems that are tuned for the suppressor with an adjustable gas block. Particularly, the bleed off style. And on those setups, a lot of the above problems are mitigated a great deal. No need to mess with buffers and springs. Not nearly as much gas coming back in your face. Decreases the extra wear and tear that otherwise would happen with an overgassed system, etc.

Oh, also noise reduction at the gas port. Which is nice.

I own competition guns with adjustable gas blocks and you are absolutely right. But these are thread type. adjustments that are not meant to be adjusted on the fly. You tune the gun then leave it alone.

Does anyone make a DI AR with a 2 or 3 position gas block intended for suppressor use? They must exist. I dont' know about them probably because I don't own and never will own a factory built "fancy" brand like Knights or Noveske.

If this exists, and I'm pretty confident it does, it will help. But suppressors do more than just increase the quantity of high pressure gas that goes into the chamber. They increase something called dwell time. This is the amount of time that the gas flows for. The can acts like a pressure reservoir. So long after the bolt carrier has moved away from the gas tube, there is still (relatively) low pressure gas blowing into the upper.

So it's a problem that can be mitigated with an adjustable gas block, but not solved.

I don't know if any of you remember a guy named Al Zeta. He had a design that was a direct impingement system except it moved the interface between the BCG and the gas tube under the hand guards. So any excess gas that bled off after the BCG started moving to the rear got dumped under the hand guard, not into the chamber and upper. It was pretty cool.

I owned one for a brief period until I was approached by a collector who bought it off of me. The patents were purchased by ParaOrdinance/Para USA and rebranded as the TTR or Tactical Target Rifle. It never caught on. Because the main spring was under the hand guard, it was one of the first ARs that could be fired with a fully folding stock.

ZM Weapons LR 300 Complete Rifles

 

[LakeTrout]

I own competition guns with adjustable gas blocks and you are absolutely right. But these are thread type. adjustments that are not meant to be adjusted on the fly. You tune the gun then leave it alone.

Does anyone make a DI AR with a 2 or 3 position gas block intended for suppressor use? They must exist. I dont' know about them probably because I don't own and never will own a factory built "fancy" brand like Knights or Noveske.

If this exists, and I'm pretty confident it does, it will help. But suppressors do more than just increase the quantity of high pressure gas that goes into the chamber. They increase something called dwell time. This is the amount of time that the gas flows for. The can acts like a pressure reservoir. So long after the bolt carrier has moved away from the gas tube, there is still (relatively) low pressure gas blowing into the upper.

So it's a problem that can be mitigated with an adjustable gas block, but not solved.

I don't know if any of you remember a guy named Al Zeta. He had a design that was a direct impingement system except it moved the interface between the BCG and the gas tube under the hand guards. So any excess gas that bled off after the BCG started moving to the rear got dumped under the hand guard, not into the chamber and upper. It was pretty cool.

I owned one for a brief period until I was approached by a collector who bought it off of me. The patents were purchased by ParaOrdinance/Para USA and rebranded as the TTR or Tactical Target Rifle. It never caught on. Because the main spring was under the hand guard, it was one of the first ARs that could be fired with a fully folding stock.

ZM Weapons LR 300 Complete Rifles

I’m unaware of any factory AR uppers with multiple position gas block switches for suppressed or unsuppressed, but I’m sure someone has to have made one. They definitely exist on other platforms. I’ve only used the set screw type. And they tend to get locked into position once fouled up if you don’t clean or lube it regularly.

The set screw type is not really a good solution for someone that is switching between suppressed and unsuppressed frequently, and wanting to adjust the gas flow each time. But it works well if you’re setting it up for a dedicated can. And a lot of this depends on gas system length and barrel length affecting dwell time, but I’ve found that 16-20” barrels with carbine to rifle length gas systems can be tuned for proper ejection and proper gassing of the rifle for a smooth shooting rifle without the suppressor, and then with the can on it seems to shoot like an off the shelf overgassed upper. And that is with carbine buffers and standard springs. Well, I’ve used the Tubbs flat wire springs in them all. Not sure if that makes a difference.

Can that setup go without stoppage for as long as a piston? No, I doubt it. Would it be the best choice for combat? No. But it’s more reliable and a lot more pleasant to shoot with or without the can vs. a stock overgassed DI upper, especially of the shorter length varieties.

Very cool info about the Al Zeta design. I was completely unaware of that.

 

[Bud R]

Just a plain 16 inch AR. Want to be a bit less obnoxious to my homies at the range at the tables next to me.

Basically the suppressor does cut your sound down but it's more to reduce your muzzle blast signature from others downrange, it basically eliminates your muzzle flash. Check out videos on Surefire's page, the explain it very well....

 

[LakeTrout]

Basically the suppressor does cut your sound down but it's more to reduce your muzzle blast signature from others downrange, it basically eliminates your muzzle flash. Check out videos on Surefire's page, the explain it very well....

I don’t think I’d say suppressors are more to reduce flash signature. Flash hiders are. But suppressors have traditionally been designed to reduce sound signature. Some designs take flash signature into consideration. But a whole lot of them really aren’t great at it compared to flash hiders.

It happens to be that an added benefit of suppressors is that they do reduce flash vs. a bare muzzle. And they have other benefits like reducing muzzle flip and reducing muzzle blast for you and your buddies in the same room. But I wouldn’t say they’re more to reduce flash signature. I’d select a muzzle device designed purely to reduce flash vs a sound suppressor for that.

 

[dcmdon]

I don’t think I’d say suppressors are more to reduce flash signature. Flash hiders are. But suppressors have traditionally been designed to reduce sound signature. Some designs take flash signature into consideration. But a whole lot of them really aren’t great at it compared to flash hiders.

It happens to be that an added benefit of suppressors is that they do reduce flash vs. a bare muzzle. And they have other benefits like reducing muzzle flip and reducing muzzle blast for you and your buddies in the same room. But I wouldn’t say they’re more to reduce flash signature. I’d select a muzzle device designed purely to reduce flash vs a sound suppressor for that.

Reduced flash is a happy unintended consequence of a suppressor.

The key thing about a can that the military loves is that the muzzle report is quieter than the sound of the bullet moving through the air.

This makes it very difficult to figure out where a shot came from, if fired from a suppressed firearm.
And the reduced hearing impact also.

It's spooky though. If you are lets say halfway down range from a suppressed gun being fired (and off to the side enough for it to be safe), you can't localize where the shot came from.

 

[Bud R]

Reduced flash is a happy unintended consequence of a suppressor.

The key thing about a can that the military loves is that the muzzle report is quieter than the sound of the bullet moving through the air.

This makes it very difficult to figure out where a shot came from, if fired from a suppressed firearm.
And the reduced hearing impact also.

It's spooky though. If you are lets say halfway down range from a suppressed gun being fired (and off to the side enough for it to be safe), you can't localize where the shot came from.

exactly,

 

[Bud R]

I don’t think I’d say suppressors are more to reduce flash signature. Flash hiders are. But suppressors have traditionally been designed to reduce sound signature. Some designs take flash signature into consideration. But a whole lot of them really aren’t great at it compared to flash hiders.

It happens to be that an added benefit of suppressors is that they do reduce flash vs. a bare muzzle. And they have other benefits like reducing muzzle flip and reducing muzzle blast for you and your buddies in the same room. But I wouldn’t say they’re more to reduce flash signature. I’d select a muzzle device designed purely to reduce flash vs a sound suppressor for that.

see the response below you, flash reduction is one of the major aspects looked for in a suppressor...'nuff said

 

[LakeTrout]

see the response below you, flash reduction is one of the major aspects looked for in a suppressor...'nuff said

see the response below you, flash reduction is one of the major aspects looked for in a suppressor...'nuff said

I think you need to reread that response. It’s reiterating that flash reduction vs. no muzzle device is an added benefit. But its intended purpose, and why they’re so popular with the military is sound concealment/confusion. You are not correct in saying that it’s more to reduce flash. No. Many silencers in use are not good at reducing flash compared to other muzzle devices.

 

[NHKevin]

I have no idea who could possibly need something more reliable than a quality DI AR15 upper. That use case may exist, but I’m unaware of it. Not knocking piston uppers. I just can’t see that as a realistic advantage over DI.

Do you even AK bro?

 

[LakeTrout]

Do you even AK bro?

That’s right…. I do. I just forgot about all the AKs I have because they are buried in 3 feet of mud with the actions open since I had no more room in the safe and apparently that is the AKs natural and peak operating environment for max reliability lol

 

[xtry51]

Late to the OP.

Suppressors are 100% worth it.

Don't buy a .223 suppressor. Buy .308 suppressors and use them on your. 223 guns to allow for cross mounting or AR10 upgrading later.

The difference between a .308 or .223 suppressor is negligible.

If you're asking about performance, you're not rich enough to buy a can for every gun. So just get a .308 can, put it on your rifle and a few year from now you'll be happy about it.

I have Q Trash Pandas in .308 on AR15s and AR10s.

 

[Bud R]

I think you need to reread that response. It’s reiterating that flash reduction vs. no muzzle device is an added benefit. But its intended purpose, and why they’re so popular with the military is sound concealment/confusion. You are not correct in saying that it’s more to reduce flash. No. Many silencers in use are not good at reducing flash compared to other muzzle devices.

And that's why they are for civilians, nothing more disconcerting to an enemy is not being able to see where a shot is coming from at night due to a very good quality "see surefire" suppressor.

 

[dcmdon]

Late to the OP.

Suppressors are 100% worth it.

Don't buy a .223 suppressor. Buy .308 suppressors and use them on your. 223 guns to allow for cross mounting or AR10 upgrading later.

The difference between a .308 or .223 suppressor is negligible.

If you're asking about performance, you're not rich enough to buy a can for every gun. So just get a .308 can, put it on your rifle and a few year from now you'll be happy about it.

I have Q Trash Pandas in .308 on AR15s and AR10s.

This may be common in the business, but back when I was a FFL/SOT in CT, ThunderBeast made their .30 cal precision rifle cans in direct thread or mountable to a muzzle brake.

They made brakes in 5/8 x 24 for .30. cal guns and in 1/2 x 28 for .223. So if you had a .30 cal can, you could thread it right onto either of those brakes using threads on the outside of the brake.

So you have 1 can that is easy to swap between .223 and 6.5, or .30 cal since all the brakes had the same threads on the outside.

 

[Agnotology]

Since .22LR, 9mm, and .223 all normally use a 1/2 x 28 thread you can use any of them on all of them with the following common sense constraints.

1) A 9mm or .22 LR can will blow up if you use it on a .223
2) A 9mm bullet won't fit through a .22 or .223 can.
3) A .22LR will work fine with a 9mm or .223 can but .22 LR is filthy compared to the other two. You need to be able to take a .22 LR can apart so you can clean it.

Which leads me to another point. My 9mm can works great with a .22 LR. It's an old Gemtec and can be taken apart.

Yes, you lose some suppression because the baffles and exit aperture are sized for 9mm, but 9mm cans tend to be larger volume and I've been quite satisfied with how it worked.

If you can't find a can that meets your description, a simple 9mm can that can be disassembled may meet your need.

The other consideration is weight. My .22 can originally weighed 4 oz. My 9mm can is 3 or 4 times as much. If your intent is to use it on a .22 pistol then the 9mm can is too heavy to maintain any kind of reasonable balance for the gun.

One other thing. I've found the Ruger 22/45 LITE line of pistols to be fantastic .22 suppressor hosts. With almost no weight forward of the receiver, they can take a decent sized can and still handle normally.

Ruger® Mark IV™ 22/45™ Lite Rimfire Pistol Models

ruger.com

they need to make 3D printed adapters that go from 1/2x28 to adapt whatever threads a 20 oz soda takes.

 

[xtry51]

This may be common in the business, but back when I was a FFL/SOT in CT, ThunderBeast made their .30 cal precision rifle cans in direct thread or mountable to a muzzle brake.

They made brakes in 5/8 x 24 for .30. cal guns and in 1/2 x 28 for .223. So if you had a .30 cal can, you could thread it right onto either of those brakes using threads on the outside of the brake.

So you have 1 can that is easy to swap between .223 and 6.5, or .30 cal since all the brakes had the same threads on the outside.

Q makes a variety of thread pattern breaks to mount their suppressors to. I have Q breaks on a number for guns so we can move the cans around at will.

 

[AJK129]

they need to make 3D printed

3D printing is so you can do it yourself, not so youre waiting on "them"

 

[LakeTrout]

And that's why they are for civilians, nothing more disconcerting to an enemy is not being able to see where a shot is coming from at night due to a very good quality "see surefire" suppressor.

You should check out videos of those at night vs. three prong flash hiders.

 

[Bud R]

You should check out videos of those at night vs. three prong flash hiders

If you want to educate yourself take a peek at Surefire's website and watch some of their videos...its an eyeopener.

 

[LakeTrout]

If you want to educate yourself take a peek at Surefire's website and watch some of their videos...it’s an eyeopener.

Oh, Ive been educated. I don’t need to see the video.

 

[dcmdon]

they need to make 3D printed adapters that go from 1/2x28 to adapt whatever threads a 20 oz soda takes.

Whenever something is cylindrical, it's often easier to make on a lathe.

There are already thread adaptors that convert 1/2 x 28 or 5/8 x 24 to the thread size of a standard spin on oil cooler. And they work great.
They are of course marketed as "solvent traps".

 

[Thirwell1216]

and interesting take on the subject. Very detailed comparison and initial thoughts between a Rex Silentium MG7 .224, Dead Air Nomad 30 (w/ e-brake) and a Dead Air Sierra 5.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJQSWFCseXo

 

[Masswhole]

and interesting take on the subject. Very detailed comparison and initial thoughts between a Rex Silentium MG7 .224, Dead Air Nomad 30 (w/ e-brake) and a Dead Air Sierra 5.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJQSWFCseXo

I'm really happy with my sierra 5, which spends most of it's time on an 11.5 DI.
Shooting outdoors, with non-gasbuster CH, the gas doesn't bother me. In shooting bays with solid walls and poor airflow it's more noticeable.

 

[Asaltweapon]

Whenever something is cylindrical, it's often easier to make on a lathe.

There are already thread adaptors that convert 1/2 x 28 or 5/8 x 24 to the thread size of a standard spin on oil cooler. And they work great.
They are of course marketed as "solvent traps".

Group buy??

 

[alx]

I do not have any cans, but I have plenty of PCSL 2-gun matches at SIG and a lot of folks there shoot suppressed ARs. The only ones that can be considered quieter are the 300 blk subsonic setups. 223? Almost as loud as non- suppressed. Also after a rapid fire stage (20 rounds or so in 30 secs for example) some of the cans get super hot. And those are curated so to speak setups with lots of $$$$ invested in them shot by competitors that know a thing or two so I assume the noise and heat are the norm. However, the flash signature is almost absent with a can so that is a plus- especially during low light conditions.

So in my mind unless subsonic 300 blk it is generally not worth to suppress a 223 rifle.

On the other hand A suppressed 22lr? It can be virtually silent.

My two observational cents

 

[AJK129]

Are pistol suppressors just memes? Id love one for my hk45c next year but it also probably shouldnt be a priority

 

[Thirwell1216]

Are pistol suppressors just memes? Id love one for my hk45c next year but it also probably shouldnt be a priority

No they are not Memes...they are fun as hell to shoot. I love my dead air mask HD on my FN 502. Insanely quiet. I have a Sig Mod-X .45 that I detest though. It is pretty much a giant linear compensator and is loud as hell. I have run my Resilliant RS9 with pistols and PCCs and love it.

 

[NHKevin]

Are pistol suppressors just memes? Id love one for my hk45c next year but it also probably shouldnt be a priority

I need to figure out which one to put on my Mark23

 

[dcmdon]

Are pistol suppressors just memes? Id love one for my hk45c next year but it also probably shouldnt be a priority

I generally don't like centerfire pistol suppressors. They work fine. They make the gun quiet. Especially 147 gr 9mm.
(the smaller the bullet, the better it suppresses because the exit aperture is smaller so the can can operate more efficiently)

But they all throw the balance of the gun off to a point where it's a 4h1tty shooting gun.

So I really only shoot .22 LR with any regularity.

I'm trying to post a vid of me shooting a Bergara bolt action .22 on a rainy day in NH. The muzzle of the rifle is several feet inside my place there.

But the controls up top are greyed out and the attach files on the bottom greys out videos. Hmm.