How Patients Answered, "Do you have access to guns?" prior to Suicide Death

[M60]

Not sure what this means, but i smell anti doo doo. None of it has shit to do with preventing suicides.

Atta boy Mike.

 

[rudiewhitebwoy]

Suicide by gun is not an easy question to answer.

When England swapped from town gas to natural gas for cooking, suicides dropped. Some of that was from an overall drop in suicides. But some from the lack of ovens to stick your head into. (Town gas was very impu and had a lot of CO. That whole head in the oven thing makes no sense to us because we aren’t of that generation.)

But the question is foolish. Should we get rid of bridges, ravines, tall buildings, bathtubs?

The answer is suicide would drop if all guns were gone. Just like no more traffic accidents if we got rid of all of the cars.

You forgot ropes, asphalt and gravity.

 

[KBCraig]

I don’t agree that most suicides are on impulse. I think it’s actually the opposite.

The sudden ones I think are “shame suicides” where the person can’t face something.

Folks with mental illness have a longer path. I will say I was asked to go through this woman’s (who killed herself) PC to look for any assets or accounts. I also helped going through her papers looking for the same. Mental illness over the span of ten years brought her from a model employee to unemployable. At some point she realized she had six months of money left. She gave her cat away, paid up her bills and mortgage for 3 months in advance. Worked on her note to her lawyer. Checked Monster.com at 6 AM and took her life shortly there after. Reading through someone’s life (that I never met) really impacted me to my core.

Post script: when the guy who plowed her driveway was told about her passing he openly wept.

From time to time I think of her and how hopelessly alone she must have felt but I also believe she is in a better place now.

About suicides...

I spent 31 years combined Army and corrections. When it comes to being trained on suicide warning signs, I'm pretty much a subject matter expert, and what you describe is typical: putting one's affairs in order is the biggest warning sign of all. I dealt with many suicides and attempts professionally, but never personally until after retirement.

My oldest son is a prior cav scout and combat medic with a pretty brutal Iraq tour under his belt, followed by three years working as a medic in an Army secure psychiatric hospital. He's hugely empathetic (but with zero sympathy), which is why I suggested that he switch from 19D to 91W: he could see through BS to directly treat peoples' real problems.

My oldest was home for a 10 day visit, and spent most of it playing video games and catching up with my second-youngest, who was 19 at the time.

Two weeks later, the 19yo left the house sometime after midnight. He took a .38 revolver and then ended his own life at a nearby swimming hole. He also had two knives with him, crossed a major highway, and crossed at least one bridge high enough for a fatal jump. He spent some time in contemplation before actually pulling the trigger, because one of the knives he carried had obviously been thrown or jabbed into the sand many times.

None of us saw it coming.

When he didn't come down the next morning, we went up to check on him. He had been a notorious slob, but his room was immaculate. His keys and wallet were neatly laid on his desk next to a note. He spent considerable time preparing for this. He was highly intelligent, and knew enough to not give any warning signs in advance, because for whatever reason he chose, he did not want to be intercepted or deterred.

Over the next 17 months, I lost four more friends and/or former colleagues to suicide. All were by gunshot, but all were also carefully planned and could have been accomplished by other means. Two of them were so concerned for their loved ones that they took care to shoot themselves through the heart instead of in the head. Only one of them could have been called impulsive, and he had to go to the trouble to break into a neighbor's gun cabinet and steal a shotgun. Another former coworker (also male) made the attempt, but he slit his wrists in the bathtub. He had guns that he could have used, but he wanted to drift quietly away; thankfully concerned coworkers broke down his door after he didn't show up for work, and saved his life. As I understand, he has straightened up and fixed his life's underlying issues.

The last one in that 17 month span wrote a very long email to all of his friends before doing the deed. He explained that he had always known he would die by his own hand someday, and the time had finally come. He told us where he was, described the beautiful scenery next to the river, hit "send", and pulled the trigger.

We will never know how many of those we lost to alcohol poisoning, overdoses, or car crashes were actually suicide. In the dark humor world of my previous professional life, "aiming for a bridge abutment" was a standing joke. "Joke."

Just two years ago, a very close friend drank himself to death. Accidentally or deliberately, he was trying to kill the pain, and then he just didn't wake up one morning. His suicide was in slow motion.

Unlike someone else on this thread, I don't have to "believe" that these were impulsive. With one possible exception, I know that none of them were.

 

[Boghog1]

Ooohhh! Burnt! You got me.

I posted that (which supports your point) because no one was debating me on the facts. They just put in their tinfoil hats and said 'Merica, more or less.

Fact is no matter if there is a gun in the home or not someone that wants to kill themselves will. You are an idiot because you don't understand debate. If guns had never been invented there would still be suicide.

 

[Mesatchornug]

My only point is that guns do contribute surplus suicide deaths in some unquantifiable amount.

First, please define "surplus" for me. Are you qualified, personally, to tell others if it's appropriate for them to end their own life when they're ready?

Next, if it's unquantifiable, then what more conversation is there to have?

If you want this place to be an echo chamber, fine. But there is an amendment before the 2nd.

What echo chamber? Maybe you missed the very real argument about the guys arrested for peaceably traveling to Maine over the weekend, but I assure you there are tons of disagreements in this forum. It's just that none seem to find your ideas in this thread persuasive - in part because they're "bolstered" by ad hom, moving goalposts, appeal to authority, etc.

You've added nothing to the current arc demonstrating that the numbers collected by doctors are skewed in part by distrust, making the conversation impossible because people come to hammer on the edges while telling others it's for their own good.

 

[Dennis in MA]

Even that's debatable. Canada implemented a handgun registry and saw a drop in handgun suicide. They also saw suicide by hanging rise at parity. Like 1:1 replacement

Oh too true. But it's still a sham argument. It's a "if it saves just one child" type bullship argument. Again I'll go back to cars. Or high rise office buildings. If it saves just one life, shouldn't we ban both of them forever???? For just one life???

 

[67ray]

You can be pro-gun, yet not in favor of the rule of the gun. Things aren't always black and white, at least not to me.

What is the rule of the gun?

 

[milktree]

Oh too true. But it's still a sham argument. It's a "if it saves just one child" type bullship argument. Again I'll go back to cars. Or high rise office buildings. If it saves just one life, shouldn't we ban both of them forever???? For just one life???

My biggest objection to the “if it saves just one life” argument is that it’s always presented in a vacuum.

Stupid example: If we banned cars, auto deaths would vanish. But a lot of people would die because they couldn’t get food or medical attention.

Banning guns would reduce some kinds of murder and suicide, but it would also increase some other kinds.

Even by the most conservative estimates there are several hundred thousand defensive uses of guns every year. The high end estimate is like 2.5 million. The truth is somewhere between the two.

I don’t know (and I think it’s unknowable) how many of those defensive gun uses would have been murders, but even if only 3% of the most conservative estimate would have been murders, that exceeds the current 12k murders with guns per year. If you use the high estimate, the percentage only needs to be 0.48% to exceed it.

 

[Buck F]

I just want to say that anyone on this thread that believes firearms do not contribute one surplus suicide death annually in the U.S. should probably refrain from joining the debate club.

I would suggest that anyone who believes the "if it even saves one life" trope should probably refrain form debating at all.

 

[Buck F]

My only point is that guns do contribute surplus suicide deaths in some unquantifiable amount.

In other words, you have no point.

 

[milktree]

In other words, you have no point.

In his defense: it's also bogus to categorically state as fact that all suicides with guns would have happened anyway if guns weren't around.

It doesn't help our cause if we say stuff that's nonsense. Therefore, it's better to say, "eliminating legal gun ownership would have an almost immeasurable effect on the suicide rate" than to say, "anyone who wants to kill themselves is going to do it anyway"

Saying something like the latter just gives them something to latch on to that they can use to say "gun owners are wrong!!!"

 

[Buck F]

In his defense: it's also bogus to categorically state as fact that all suicides with guns would have happened anyway if guns weren't around.

It doesn't help our cause if we say stuff that's nonsense. Therefore, it's better to say, "eliminating legal gun ownership would have an almost immeasurable effect on the suicide rate" than to say, "anyone who wants to kill themselves is going to do it anyway"

Saying something like the latter just gives them something to latch on to that they can use to say "gun owners are wrong!!!"

Fair enough although I never stated ALL would have happened anyway, I try not to be an absolutist or play the "one life" semantics game. He has his mind made up and nothing anyone says will change that, hence the need to resort to the one life argument.

 

[In God We Trust]

Lol. Are you guys really trying to argue that guns are not the leading method of suicide? The number is like 90% of suicide deaths are with a gun. It makes sense and it’s how I would do it if I were so inclined.

I’m not saying other methods aren’t available, but gun top the list by a landslide. I doubt there is much correlation between gun ownership and suicide, but STATISTICALLY you are more likely to die by suicide if you own a gun

 

[Mesatchornug]

Lol. Are you guys really trying to argue that guns are not the leading method of suicide? The number is like 90% of suicide deaths are with a gun. It makes sense and it’s how I would do it if I were so inclined.

I’m not saying other methods aren’t available, but gun top the list by a landslide. I doubt there is much correlation between gun ownership and suicide, but STATISTICALLY you are more likely to die by suicide if you own a gun

Suicide by firearm is about 50% of total suicides in the US most years. Few are arguing they're not commonly used. The point of debate seems to be "without firearms, can we expect a meaningful change in total suicides?" The worldwide data is inconclusive.

• NIMH » Suicide

Table 2​

Suicide by Method (2019)
Data Courtesy of CDC

Suicide Method	Number of Deaths
Total	47,511
Firearm	23,941
Suffocation	13,563
Poisoning	6,125
Other	3,882

 

[Buck F]

Suicide by firearm is about 50% of total suicides in the US most years. Few are arguing they're not commonly used. The point of debate seems to be "without firearms, can we expect a meaningful change in total suicides?" The worldwide data is inconclusive.

• NIMH » Suicide

Table 2​

Suicide by Method (2019)
Data Courtesy of CDC

Suicide Method	Number of Deaths
Total	47,511
Firearm	23,941
Suffocation	13,563
Poisoning	6,125
Other	3,882

I'd say the worldwide data indicates that there wouldn't be be a meaningful decrease. The US has higher civilian gun ownership than any other county, by a wide margin. The US isn't the top in suicides and there are plenty of countries w/ strict gun control that have higher suicide rates than the US. South Korea, Russia, Belgium, Japan, we're neck & neck w/ some of the Scandinavian utopias, etc. Do guns make it easy? Sure. So do cars & garages (if I was going to do it that's how I'd do it). Does the fact that people use guns 50% of the time mean that homes w/ guns have a higher risk of suicide? I don't think you can say that.

 

[TrenchKnife]

Suicide by firearm is about 50% of total suicides in the US most years. Few are arguing they're not commonly used. The point of debate seems to be "without firearms, can we expect a meaningful change in total suicides?" The worldwide data is inconclusive.

I think the point of debate had more to do with the health care profession (as in doctor office visits) assessing suicide concerns on the basis of "their questioning" access to firearms.

at this point, it's been said here a few times, on the male internalization of psychological discontent. The doctor's attempt to identify a suicide likelihood from any questioning is low, probably very low.

 

[babygorilla]

I just want to say that anyone on this thread that believes firearms do not contribute one surplus suicide death annually in the U.S. should probably refrain from joining the debate club.

My argument is "Who Cares?" It's your life, if you choose to end it in the most effective means at your disposal,, why not allow it. Hell, I'm all for Suicide Booths.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbmQxZkSswI

 

[drgrant]

I'd say the worldwide data indicates that there wouldn't be be a meaningful decrease. The US has higher civilian gun ownership than any other county, by a wide margin. The US isn't the top in suicides and there are plenty of countries w/ strict gun control that have higher suicide rates than the US. South Korea, Russia, Belgium, Japan, we're neck & neck w/ some of the Scandinavian utopias, etc. Do guns make it easy? Sure. So do cars & garages (if I was going to do it that's how I'd do it). Does the fact that people use guns 50% of the time mean that homes w/ guns have a higher risk of suicide? I don't think you can say that.

This.

If "guns meaningfully contributed to suicides"

by proxy, the US should be jockeying for one of the first few places on the list because its gun ownership is exponentially higher than all the other countries on the top 10 list. (and the US isnt even in the top 10 for suicide rate, period).

Depending on the data source you go to, US is like 25th or even in the 30s. Japan and South Korea are nearly always leaders, I doubt SK has much of a gun culture but I know that Japan has basically no gun culture at all, to the point of a near total ban, if it was possible- and amongst industrialized nations at least, they have always been in the top 3 suicide rates in the
world.

 

[enbloc]

I GUNS

 

[garandman]

I responded to many calls that turned out to be suicides and none used a gun. Most used a rope or pills but a few got very creative.

Data in MA shows pills #1, and only about 10% succeed. 7,000+ attempts.

 

[tuna]

My argument to the “save just one life” is not all lives are worth saving.
How about we work smarter, not harder? If someone is going to off themself, let them do it effectively, instead of making more of a mess.
Why do we have to save every puppy in the pound? Can’t we just let the woodchipper run for a bit?

 

[gerrycaruso]

I can definitely think of a few people who deserve the woodchipper.

 

[Dennis in MA]

My biggest objection to the “if it saves just one life” argument is that it’s always presented in a vacuum.

Stupid example: If we banned cars, auto deaths would vanish. But a lot of people would die because they couldn’t get food or medical attention.

Banning guns would reduce some kinds of murder and suicide, but it would also increase some other kinds.

Even by the most conservative estimates there are several hundred thousand defensive uses of guns every year. The high end estimate is like 2.5 million. The truth is somewhere between the two.

I don’t know (and I think it’s unknowable) how many of those defensive gun uses would have been murders, but even if only 3% of the most conservative estimate would have been murders, that exceeds the current 12k murders with guns per year. If you use the high estimate, the percentage only needs to be 0.48% to exceed it.

Damn. I can't recall the specifics at this moment in time, but I was reading something on unintended consequences. It was bizarre. Things we take for granted as "safe" and "helpful" and how, when you look really really really deep - do cause harm and death. They had several striking examples.

For the life of me, I can't think of what it is, but there are ALWAYS unintended consequences.

I wonder if it was a Freakanomics episode. . . . Yep. Found it.

During your average, there are more heart attack deaths than on any other day. Not runners. Regular people. Why? Because of crowding and police roadblocks, people have less access to the hospital. Can't get in b/c of hte race. People die.

Unintended. Who would have thought???? Let's shut down the Boston Marathon. Because if it saves just one life. . . .

 

[MGnoob]

View: https://youtu.be/GwHjtRKufmM


I hate the whole gun suicide argument. If you want to end suicide by guns all you need to do is install a couple of these

 

[92G]

Women are far more likely than men to attempt suicide, by a factor of three or four to one. Yet almost twice as many men die by suicide. What is your explanation for that? You seem to be an expert.

Gender wage gap