How do you know if an AR is pre-ban?

[TZCHRIS]

My buddy just had an AR made for him, looks pretty sweet. He said it was an M4, it does have fully adjustable stock and 14.5" barrel with 'muzzle break' and a box of 30 round mags. I asked 'is it pre-ban'? He said 'huh, I don't know'

It was made last week, I guess it could have been made from pre-ban parts? If I were to buy it from him (when his wife finds out he has it) how to make sure its legal?

 

[Mass-diver]

You can look up online and/or call the manufacturer with the serial number of the lower and find out if it's pre-ban.

 

[TZCHRIS]

Is there any way of knowing just by looking at the lower?

 

[drgrant]

Is there any way of knowing just by looking at the lower?

Yes, but you have to look up the serial number of the lower, and depending on who made it they might be able to tell you if it is preban via the serial number, or a list on the internet if it is a big name like Colt, Bushmaster, or Olympic.

Only the lower really matters in that determination- The fact that the rest of the gun is new is irrelevant.

A very good possibility is your friend, or whoever build the rifle does not care about whether it is pre-ban or not. A lot of people have simply stopped giving a rats ass about the AWB, despite the fact that it is a (potential) felony. If he doesn't know the answer to that question,. then it probably isn't pre-ban, because if he knew it was he would have paid a premium for it and remembered that fact. (A preban lower typically adds another $200-300 or more to the build cost, so it's not something you would "forget". )

-Mike

 

[TZCHRIS]

whoever build the rifle does not care about whether it is pre-ban or not

That is my initial reaction, he paid $1200, not that that will indicate anything, to be honest my buddy doesn't know a lot about them or the pre-ban issue, just wanted to help him cover his ass, his theory is that he didn't make it, he just bought it, I don't think that would hold up in court if its not legal.

 

[drgrant]

That is my initial reaction, he paid $1200, not that that will indicate anything, to be honest my buddy doesn't know a lot about them or the pre-ban issue, just wanted to help him cover his ass, his theory is that he didn't make it, he just bought it, I don't think that would hold up in court if its not legal.

You can get a preban rifle for that much, so it might indeed be preban, if the builder bothered to procure the appropriate lower. I wouldn't hold my breath, though.

And no, his excuse won't hold up, but chances are he probably won't have to test it, particularly if he's pussywhipped, because he'll probably sell it soon anyways.

-Mike

 

[maglock]

My buddy just had an AR made for him, looks pretty sweet. He said it was an M4, it does have fully adjustable stock and 14.5" barrel with 'muzzle break' and a box of 30 round mags. I asked 'is it pre-ban'? He said 'huh, I don't know'

It was made last week, I guess it could have been made from pre-ban parts? If I were to buy it from him (when his wife finds out he has it) how to make sure its legal?

Doesn't this make it an "SBR" and therefore requires a tax stamp? Doesn't it have to have a 16" barrel including muzzle brake?

 

[bostonasphalt2]

Doesn't this make it an "SBR" and therefore requires a tax stamp?

So long as the muzzle brake is 1.5 inches or longer, no

 

[maglock]

I realize that, but he says it is 14.5" WITH muzzle brake not WITHOUT muzzle brake.

 

[chinalfr]

I realize that, but he says it is 14.5" WITH muzzle brake not WITHOUT muzzle brake.

You have no idea of what he said.

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[drgrant]

Doesn't this make it an "SBR" and therefore requires a tax stamp? Doesn't it have to have a 16" barrel including muzzle brake?

If the brake is pinned and welded on and its long enough to bring the barrel out to 16", he's fine WRT the NFA. it's probably a pre-fab upper anyways.

Very few people run an upper that is 14.5 OAL with the brake/FH included, so I doubt that is really the case. Most are 16 OAL to stay within the limits of the NFA.

-Mike

 

[LoginName]

Yes, but you have to look up the serial number of the lower, and depending on who made it they might be able to tell you if it is preban via the serial number, or a list on the internet if it is a big name like Colt, Bushmaster, or Olympic.


-Mike

If it's an Oly Arms... I wouldn't even bother wasting my time calling them...

Is my Olympic Arms firearm a Pre-Ban?

Q: Is my Olympic Arms firearm a Pre-Ban?

A: This is a common question. The short answer is: we can't tell. The long answer has to do with the ATF definition of what is and is not a Pre-Ban.

http://www.olyarms.com/index.php?op...-a-pre-ban&catid=7:general-questions&Itemid=2

What does my serial number mean?

Q: What does my serial number mean?

A: Nothing is more frustrating than to know little or nothing about the firearm you own or are about to buy. Use the information in this page to help determine when your Olympic Arms firearm was produced. Please read all of the details on this page because there are many questions answered in the following paragraphs.

As many of you already know, on the 7th of June, 2000, Olympic Arms experienced a devastating fire that destroyed our sales offices. In those offices were housed our current as well as archival records with regards to manufacture, acquisition and distribution of firearms. The books that we, as well as all federally licensed firearms dealers are required to keep are commonly known as "Bound Books", or "A&D" (acquisition & distribution) books.

These books, over 25 years of Olympic Arms history and data, were completely destroyed in that fire. All A& D book records prior to the 7th of June, 2000 are GONE. Period. This is an unfortunate situation that severely limits our ability to provide product information for any and all AR-15 lower receivers and/or complete guns manufactured prior to that date. As a result all that we can provide is what you see below, a date "range" in which your serial number was manufactured.

We CANNOT provide you with the date the serial number was shipped, we CANNOT provide you with information determining whether a particular serial number was a factory assembled firearm, and most importantly, we CANNOT determine whether or not your particular serial number is a legal grandfathered pre-ban firearm.

http://www.olyarms.com/index.php?Itemid=26&id=13&option=com_content&task=view

More at link with a table of SN#'s

 

[xtry51]

Kind of makes you wish more gun manufactures have fires that destroy their books.

 

[dcmdon]

Chris,

Get the brand and the serial number and post it here. Th
en we can figure it out. For the serial number, the first few digits are the most important. Just leave the last two digits as XX.

Don

 

[TZCHRIS]

I will get the receiver info when its 'OK'. Went to drop off 1K rounds I made for him but was stopped in driveway (wife was home) LOL. I should rat him out so I can buy it cheap. You know what we need in MA for gun control, not more laws, more wives like his

Actually she is great and I think he just spent the diaper money on toys.

 

[dcmdon]

I will get the receiver info when its 'OK'. Went to drop off 1K rounds I made for him but was stopped in driveway (wife was home) LOL. I should rat him out so I can buy it cheap. You know what we need in MA for gun control, not more laws, more wives like his

Actually she is great and I think he just spent the diaper money on toys.

The wife thing is a whole different matter. I've actually had guys ask for a second receipt with a fake (lower) purchase price on it.

 

[TZCHRIS]

The wife thing is a whole different matter.

Yeah, when I bought my Mosin the guy at Four Seasons said 'theirs is a gun your wife can't complain about'. I said what do you mean all the guns I buy are only $120

 

[PaulD]

Yeah, when I bought my Mosin the guy at Four Seasons said 'theirs is a gun your wife can't complain about'. I said what do you mean all the guns I buy are only $120

That's part of why I bought an M1A. "Look honey, wood stock, it's a hunting rifle".

 

[TZCHRIS]

It is a Yankee Hill Lower, I did a search on 'Yankee Hill Pre Ban Lowers' and came up empty..................

 

[PaulD]

It is a Yankee Hill Lower, I did a search on 'Yankee Hill Pre Ban Lowers' and came up empty..................

I'll take a WAG that YHM didn't even exist as a company in 1994 or at least weren't making AR15 lowers.

 

[TZCHRIS]

YHM was establishe in 1951 but it is not clear as to when they started making lowers or any firearm products. They don't advertise 'pre-ban' lowers, just uppers, which is another confusing issue. I thought a legal pre-ban had to be assembled prior to 1994 regardless of the actual components? So if an upper was manufactured last week it will never be pre-ban no matter what lower it is put in? Makes my head spin, thats why I bought my M&P Sport, but looking at my buddies AR makes me have to have one like it!

 

[PaulD]

YHM was establishe in 1951 but it is not clear as to when they started making lowers or any firearm products. They don't advertise 'pre-ban' lowers, just uppers, which is another confusing issue. I thought a legal pre-ban had to be assembled prior to 1994 regardless of the actual components? So if an upper was manufactured last week it will never be pre-ban no matter what lower it is put in? Makes my head spin, thats why I bought my M&P Sport, but looking at my buddies AR makes me have to have one like it!

At very least, the lower had to be manufactured prior to 9/94 and it was supposed to be fully assembled into a gun as well. It's legal to have reconfigured the lower since then (ie. replace all the other parts except the lower) and still have it qualify as pre-ban. Given that it's probably impossible to prove the assembly bit, simply having a lower made before 9/94 is good enough, though IANAL.

If you call YHM, I'm sure they can tell you if they made lowers before 9/94. Also, it's highly unlikely they or any other manufacturer would advertise pre-ban lowers unless they happened to find a box of them forgotten in a warehouse.

 

[TZCHRIS]

It is still pretty confusing to me, not sure I want to take that chance, but I am still jealous! All I have is a crappy old M&P, atually the M&P isn't that bad.

The difference is I shoot mine every week and his will be a closet until either A The SHTF or B his wife finds it, so until he convinces me it really is pre-ban I will stick with my M&P.

Thanks for all the help!

 

[PaulD]

It is still pretty confusing to me, not sure I want to take that chance, but I am still jealous! All I have is a crappy old M&P, atually the M&P isn't that bad.

The difference is I shoot mine every week and his will be a closet until either A The SHTF or B his wife finds it, so until he convinces me it really is pre-ban I will stick with my M&P.

Thanks for all the help!

It's really pretty simple. If the piece of aluminum that holds the magazine, trigger group and pistol grip can be proven to have been manufactured before Sept of 1994, it's pre-ban. That means you can hang whatever evil sh!t you want on it without fear of committing a victimless felony. If that piece of metal was made after 1994 and it has a moveable buttstock (because those are scary), you'll get life in prison if caught.

 

[drgrant]

YHM was establishe in 1951 but it is not clear as to when they started making lowers or any firearm products. They don't advertise 'pre-ban' lowers, just uppers, which is another confusing issue. I thought a legal pre-ban had to be assembled prior to 1994 regardless of the actual components? So if an upper was manufactured last week it will never be pre-ban no matter what lower it is put in? Makes my head spin, thats why I bought my M&P Sport, but looking at my buddies AR makes me have to have one like it!

I don't think YHM ever made lowers, up until the past few years or so, as I've never seen them on a preban serial list anywhwere. Chances are that gun is 100% new build parts.

-Mike

 

[Mass-diver]

It is a Yankee Hill Lower, I did a search on 'Yankee Hill Pre Ban Lowers' and came up empty..................

It's post-ban and felony.

Having a rifle like this is like having a big bag of cocaine in your house. There's a very low chance you'll ever get caught (fire, burglary, etc), but if you do get caught it will probably ruin your life.

For me, I just suck it up and pay a couple hundred bucks more for verfied pre-ban rifles/lowers.

 

[chinalfr]

It's post-ban and felony.

Having a rifle like this is like having a big bag of cocaine in your house. There's a very low chance you'll ever get caught (fire, burglary, etc), but if you do get caught it will probably ruin your life.

For me, I just suck it up and pay a couple hundred bucks more for verfied pre-ban rifles/lowers.

How so? It's legal to own a post ban YHM AR in MA as long as it's neutralized.

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[dcmdon]

How so? It's legal to own a post ban YHM AR in MA as long as it's neutralized.

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Exactly.

Here's how I look at it. I own 3 pre-ban lowers. And if I lived in MA all my life I'd have never bothered to get them.

Here's why:

1) Collapsible stocks suck. Seriously. Why anyone whose job isn't to climb out of a tank, or clear rooms with body armor on would want a collapsible stock is beyond me. You get a better cheek weld with a standard A2 stock. Or if you want something that looks sexier, lets face it we all do, then get a Vltor rifle modstock.

2) Bayonet lugs . . . enough said.

3) Flash suppressors vs compensators/brakes - the flash suppressor will help you only at night. A muzzle brake will help you shoot better all the time, day or night. Given the option, some of the worlds best militaries choose brakes over flash suppressors.

4) threaded bbl - this is the one "evil" feature that I really want. This is why I bought pre-ban. I like shooting with suppressors. Its fun, the gun is more neighborly, and its great for new shooters. However in MA, I can't have a suppressor, so the one reason for owning a pre-ban gun is eliminated.

This is a pre-ban gun of mine with a brake and a fixed stock. Its a kick to shoot. And that 10.5" bbl with the brake is VERY loud.

And here is why I want a threaded bbl. With standard 5.56 ammo, its about as loud as a 10/22 and the recoil is reduced as much as with a muzzle brake.

But unfortunately, my cans are back in CT at the home of someone who is listed as a trustee on the trust that owns my NFA stuff.

So if I was in the market for a gun now, it would have a Vltor rifle modstock, I'd whack the bayonet lug off, and I'd pin and weld the brake of my choice onto the bbl.
One thing I wouldn't do is pin a crappy military style telescoping stock in place. Thats the worst of all worlds.

Don

p.s. just some added info re the stuff I suggested.

a) bayonet lug removal is very easy. Use a hack saw or a dremel. Then dress the flat and smooth the edges with a file. Finally, hit it with some cold blue and you are done.

b) pinning and welding - most brakes come with a pilot hole already in the base of the brake. This hole acts as a guide when you drill, so you don't even need a drill press. You only need to drill into the bbl 1/8" for the roll pin to get a good purchase. Finally, you drop a dot of weld on the roll pin hole using a flux core MIG welder that you can buy at harbor freight for $90. Keep in mind, the weld is just to limit access to the roll pin. You are NOT welding the brake to the bbl.

This is not rocket surgery, although it is best to practice on black steel pipe scraps before you attempt on a real gun and if you are using flux core wire, protect the rest of the gun from spatter.

Once the dot of weld is in place, you dress it with a file and cold blue. If you want to change the brake, the weld and roll pin can be drilled out in about 15 minutes. A drill press is necessary for this step. Hope this helps.

 

[Mass-diver]

How so? It's legal to own a post ban YHM AR in MA as long as it's neutralized.

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The rifle in question has a collapsible stock

 

[drgrant]

How so? It's legal to own a post ban YHM AR in MA as long as it's neutralized.

The rifle the OP is talking about, if his description is correct, clearly is not a neutered gun.

-Mike