How do FFL's get mail order ammo?

wheelgun

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I know that it's legal for Mass residents to mail order ammo, but most out of state stores won't ship to Mass, as we all know.

So how do the major stores like FS get their ammo? Does their FFL license carry more weight and give reassurance to the out of state suppliers that it's OK to ship to them?
If so, can any FFL holder get such preferential treatment? Or do out of state suppliers only ship to commercial retail stores?
 
FFLs, by definition, have a Federal license. Moreover, dealers will also have the required STATE sales license. Consumers have neither.
 
I know that it's legal for Mass residents to mail order ammo, but most out of state stores won't ship to Mass, as we all know.

So how do the major stores like FS get their ammo? Does their FFL license carry more weight and give reassurance to the out of state suppliers that it's OK to ship to them?
If so, can any FFL holder get such preferential treatment? Or do out of state suppliers only ship to commercial retail stores?

2 words... ammunition license. Richie at Richie's Sporting in Westport pointed his out hanging on the wall when I was talking about buying ammo through the mail. You can try your luck with diferent companies if you have a C&R for extra influence. Some send, some don't, don't ask me who because I will not tell. [wink]
Our AG has made most companies agree to an agreement not to sell to Mass individuals despite there being no such listed law preventing them from doing so. I was told by most companies that as long as they agree not to sell ammo to us, they have to stick with the ruling or face fines.
 
FWIW, more than one FFL has told me that even -WITH- an ammo license
and an FFL, some companies/distributors are STILL afraid to ship ammo
here. The FFL/Ammo Sales License will work as a dodge a lot of the
time, but not for every seller. Some refuse to ship ANY ammo to MA
under ANY circumstance.

-Mike
 
Mike is right!

Also when all this BS surfaced, a GOAL staffer told me that the AG's "opinion" was that it was ILLEGAL to ship ANY AMMO/COMPONENTS into MA at all. This included MA Distributors (we have a handful here in MA), Dealers/FFLs, Police Departments, and ordinary citizens with LTC.

I chuckled and said the first time Reilly tries to stop the supply to a PD, which would force a chief to send an officer on OT in a cruiser across state lines for an ammo pickup, would be the last day of his political career. As expected, he targeted his "opinion" on mere citizens who have no political clout (at least none that the politicians will listen to).

Best to "not ask, not tell" here too.
 
The FFL/Ammo Sales License will work as a dodge a lot of the time, but not for every seller.

"Dodge?" Just how is holding the requisite licenses to sell ammunition in this state - in other words, full compliance with the staute - a "dodge?" [rolleyes]
 
"Dodge?" Just how is holding the requisite licenses to sell ammunition in this state - in other words, full compliance with the staute - a "dodge?" [rolleyes]

It's a dodge in the sense that some distributors consider it to be
enough "ass covering" to still ship ammo to people who possess FFL's and/or
ammunition sales licenses. EG- these dealers feel that they could
say to the AG "But we only sell ammo to licensed dealers in MA". My
belief is that the sellers who were scared away entirely got hit by a nasty
letter from the AG's office and basically wrote off MA, despite the fact
that they probably would not be interfered with when selling ammo only
to licensed dealers. From what Len is saying though, who knows how
many ammo sellers have been beat up by the AG, and under what circumstances? GOAL
probably has a better picture of the amount of BS....

-Mike
 
It's a dodge in the sense that some distributors consider it to be enough "ass covering" to still ship ammo to people who possess FFL's and/or ammunition sales licenses. EG-[sic] these dealers feel that they could say to the AG "But we only sell ammo to licensed dealers in MA".

Then you either misunderstand or misuse the term. "Dodge" as you've attempted to use it means scam, trick or evasion. That is hardly what is happening here.

The only "dodge" in this scenario is the AG's use of "consumer protection" to deprive duly licensed consumers of a lawful product.
 
I wonder how many of the vendors named in the following articles either just
threw their hands up in disgust, or were coerced into signing an agreement
with Herr Reilly that they would no longer ship ammo to MA under any circumstance?

AG REILLY OBTAINS ORDERS AGAINST THREE ILLEGAL ONLINE AMMUNITION SELLERS, SUES TWO OTHER INTERNET RETAILERS
October 15, 2003

BOSTON -- Attorney General Tom Reilly has filed two lawsuits and three judgments against five out-of-state online retailers accused of illegally selling ammunition to Massachusetts residents.

The lawsuits and consent judgments, filed in Suffolk County Superior Court, are the result of undercover stings conducted by AG Reilly's Office into several Internet companies selling ammunition in violation of Massachusetts law. State law requires dealers be licensed to sell ammunition and prohibits the sale of ammunition to minors or those without a permit. None of the companies who shipped ammunition to Massachusetts held the proper state license nor did they take the required steps to verify that the purchaser was authorized to buy ammunition under Massachusetts law.

"Ammunition is a highly dangerous product—that is why it is strictly regulated under Massachusetts law," AG Reilly said. "Bullets, like guns, should never fall into the wrong hands. It is simply unacceptable for companies to send out ammunition which could be delivered to children or others who should not have it."

The three settlements were reached with Discount Distributors, Inc. www.ammoman.com) of West Berlin, New Jersey, Midway Arms, Inc. www.midwayusa.com) of Colombia, Missouri, and Kiesler's Police Supply www.kieslersonline.com) of Jeffersonville, Indiana. Under the terms of the judgments, these three companies will pay a $2,500 civil penalty and are barred from selling ammunition in violation of Massachusetts law. Each also must submit to monitoring measures regarding future sales.

AG Reilly named The Ammo Bank (www.ammobank.com) of Rochester, New York and Cascade Ammunition (www.ammunitionplus.com) of Roseburg, Oregon in two separate lawsuits filed today alleging illegal sale of ammunition.

The cases are being handled by Assistant Attorneys General Glenn Kaplan and Jack Christin, with assistance from Director of Investigations Quinton Dale and Investigator Todd Davis, all of AG Reilly's Office.


http://www.ago.state.ma.us/sp.cfm?pageid=986&id=1105


AG REILLY SUES ONLINE WEAPONS AND AMMUNITION DEALERS CHARGING ILLEGAL SALES INTO MASSACHUSETTS
Sellers Alleged to Have Sold Wide Array of Illegal Weapons As Part of Online Sting; Four Sellers Agree to Permanent Bans
August 19, 2004

BOSTON - Attorney General Tom Reilly sued seven out-of-state online weapons sellers and three out-of-state ammunition sellers as part of his continuing effort to combat the sale of illegal products to Massachusetts citizens over the Internet.

The suits allege that the weapons sellers sold and shipped stun guns, switch-blade knives, swords, nunchaku (a/k/a numchucks), throwing stars, sling shots and dirk knives to an undercover investigator in violation of statutes banning the sale of such items. The weapons dealers that are subject to the lawsuits are:

* Talley Security Products (www.talleysecurity.com) of Flagstaff, AZ
* Lifestyle Fascinations (www.shoplifestyle.com) of Lakewood, NJ
* Bynoon.com (www.bynoon.com) of Dunlap,TN
* C & M Enterprises (www.1ninjaworld.com) of Fort Gaines, GA
* Copgear.net (www.copgear.net) of Killeen, TX
* Martial Arts Gear (www.martialartsgear.com) of Lafayette, LA
* Discount Martial Art Supply (www.masupply.com) of Winnetka, CA

"We cannot allow these dangerous weapons to get into the hands of anyone in Massachusetts, particularly our children,” AG Reilly said. “If sellers think that they can hide behind a website and ship these illegal items into our state, they are mistaken.

The cases arose from undercover stings conducted by AG Reilly's Office in 2002 and 2003.

Four of the companies, Bynoon.com, Discount Martial Arts Supply, Lifestyle Fascination, and Talley Security Products, agreed to orders banning all future sales of weapons into Massachusetts and requiring payments of $5000 each to the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. These companies must place a posting on their websites stating that they do not ship weapons into Massachusetts. They must also equip their sites with software that blocks any orders from a Massachusetts address.

The other cases are set for a preliminary injunction hearing before Judge Sikora at 2 PM on September 10.

Under Massachusetts law, the sale or possession of various weapons, such as switch blade knives, dirk knives, sling shots, throwing stars, numchucks, sword canes, and black jacks, is illegal. There is a separate statute that prohibits the sale or possession of electrical weapons, including stun guns.

"Our investigator had no trouble getting stun guns, switch blades, and cane swords on the Internet," AG Reilly added.

The ammunition dealers sued today are:

* C& EJ's Hunting and Fishing of Upper Marlboro, Maryland
* Dan's Sporting Goods of New Kensington, Pennsylvania
* Marksman's Mart of Pinckney, Michigan

Each delivered ammunition to an undercover investigator in Massachusetts without asking if the recipient was licensed to carry a firearm, in violation of Massachusetts law, and each was unlicensed to sell ammunition in the Commonwealth.

These cases are part of an overall initiative by AG Reilly's Office targeting the sale of illegal or age-prohibited products in Massachusetts, such as alcohol, cigarettes, ammunition and fireworks. During last year's holiday season, the Attorney General's Office worked with Toys "R" Us to remove a sling shot that violated the Massachusetts weapons statute from the company's store shelves and website.

Anyone with questions about whether or not weapons they have are prohibited by Massachusetts law should check with their local police department.

The case was handled by Assistant Attorneys General Jack Christin, David Monahan, and Timothy Moran of AG Reilly's Consumer Protection and Antitrust Division, with assistance from Investigator Todd Davis of the Investigations Division.

http://www.ago.state.ma.us/sp.cfm?pageid=986&id=1277


AG REILLY STOPS ILLEGAL SALE OF ONLINE AMMUNITION
April 6, 2005

BOSTON - Attorney General Tom Reilly announced today that he has obtained a court order prohibiting a Maryland-based Internet dealer from illegally selling ammunition to Massachusetts residents. The court order, entered in Suffolk Superior Court, marks the ninth court order obtained by AG Reilly against an online dealer accused of illegally selling ammunition in Massachusetts.

These cases stem from an undercover sting of online ammunition dealers AG Reilly launched in 2003 as part of a broader enforcement initiative targeting the illegal sale of dangerous products over the Internet. As a result of the sting, AG Reilly has brought actions against nine out-of-state online ammo retailers, effectively stopping them from selling ammunition illegally in Massachusetts. In lawsuits and judgments filed in Suffolk Superior Court, AG Reilly accused those retailers of making ammunition available to unlicensed purchasers, selling ammunition without a proper state license, and selling to minors, all barred by state law.

“We have to keep ammunition out of the hands of children and untrained and unlicensed adults is an important issue,” AG Reilly said. “While the Internet makes it easy to order all sorts of products, online dealers must still abide by our laws and keep potentially dangerous products from people without the proper credentials.”

AG Reilly obtained the latest court order against C & EJ’s Hunting and Fishing Inc., of Lothian Maryland, which operates online at www.cnejs-hunting-fishing.com . C & EJ’s sold 500 rounds of 9 mm ammunition to undercover investigators with AG Reilly’s Office. The company is now prohibited from making such unlicensed sales into Massachusetts.

AG Reilly has also obtained court orders in Suffolk Superior Court prohibiting the illegal sale of ammunition over the Internet against the following dealers:

* Dan’s Sporting Goods (www.dansammo.com) of Apollo, Pennsylvania;
* Marksman’s Mart (www.marksmansmart.com) of Pinckney, Michigan;
* The AmmoBank (www.ammobank.com) of Rochester, NY;
* Advanced International Marketing, Inc., (www.aimsurplus.com) of Middletown, Ohio;
* Midway Arms, Inc. (www.midwayusa.com) of Columbia, Missouri;
* Kiesler’s Police Supply (www.kieslersonline.com) of Jeffersonville, Indiana
* Cascade Ammunition (www.ammunitionplus.com) of Roseberg, Oregon; and
* Discount Distributors, Inc. (www.ammoman.com) of West Berlin, New Jersey.

All of the lawsuits and orders have been filed in Suffolk County Superior Court. Each of the companies must submit to measures monitoring their future sales.

Assistant Attorney General Glenn Kaplan and Jayna Stafford with Director of Investigations Quinton Dale, all of AG Reilly’s Public Protection Bureau, handled these cases.

http://www.ago.state.ma.us/sp.cfm?pageid=986&id=1396
 
In the descriptions of the lawsuits that LoginName posted. the AG constantly refers to "keeping dangerous products out of the hands of unlicensed people and children".

But I'm licensed, so what's the problem? Why can't I legally just fax a copy of my license to the on-line retailer? I know that a handful of retailers will accept this procedure, but it's like a black market - why do they have to hide? How can the AG prohibit something unless it violates existing law? It's frustrating when you meet every condition under the law and STILL are arbitrarily blocked. This isn't government, it's a dictatorship.
 
The only "dodge" in this scenario is the AG's use of "consumer protection" to deprive duly licensed consumers of a lawful product.

It's frustrating when you meet every condition under the law and STILL are arbitrarily blocked. This isn't government, it's a dictatorship.

See Scriv's post wheelgun - that sums it up pretty well.
 
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