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Hornady lock-n-load powder measure problem

paul73

paul73

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So, as it was recommended by @EddieCoyle quite a long time ago i finally decided to get it for an experiment - it all finally arrived - the setup was not difficult, but so far results are rather frustrating.
i wanted to improve drops of - specifically - or Reloder 16 powder. My modified and improved dillon bar setup drops it for 41.8gr target deviating in average from 41.5 to 42gr with high and low drops to be relatively rare, when i measure it i see mostly deviations from 41.7 to 41.9. but, still, for 6.5CM loads to have both 41.5 and 42 in a same batch is not ideal. The annoying part is that is often cuts powder straws, but, mostly works flawlessly.

So, so far results i see from the Horandy measure do disappoint greatly. Assembly seems to be fine. i used a bit of graphite to make sure it rotates freely, seems to have no gaps. I did set it up for same 41.8gr target, and here is the last sequence of drops i bothered to record:

42.8, 42.1, 42.2, 41.8, 41.9, 42.4, 42.1

42.8 is not a glitch - it did similar before. Not sure what to think of it all, to be honest. Nothing seems to be faulty, at a first glance, and seems to operate smoothly. it cuts powder much less than dillon.
But, it did 3 times a very annoying powder stuck thing, when only 13 or 20 gr drops into the shell, and rest is stuck in the tube - dillon never ever did that. I could probably fix that issue with some polishing and cleaning/degreasing - but the overthrow by a whole grain so far seems to be a total showstopper. Very frustrating. Dunno if it is my luck with a defective unit, or if it is how it works with a large long stick powders like R16. So, that's the story for today.

h1.jpg
 
It definitely helps to completely degrease it (via Gunscrubber) and then I used the Hornady one shot cleaner + lube to lube/protect the metal. Mine seems to be right on with any fine ball or flake powders. Coarse stick powders like IMR-4064 are a no go and I use the Lee PPM for that.
 
andrew1220 said:
It definitely helps to completely degrease it (via Gunscrubber) and then I used the Hornady one shot cleaner + lube to lube/protect the metal. Mine seems to be right on with any fine ball or flake powders. Coarse stick powders like IMR-4064 are a no go and I use the Lee PPM for that.
Click to expand...
well, the issue is - the drop tubes it came with are simply no good, design wise.
dillon ones are set per caliber - they allow the neck to enter in and have a ledge above so powder drops into shell but not getting stuck due to contact with brass edge. the design here is - first of all - only the pistol drop tube is long enough to work in one piece. then both rifle drop tubes have just a cone to meet the neck - and the bigger one would not work for 6.5CM neck as it drops into the hole and would make powder contact the brass and stuck.
the smaller one - the only one that can be used - makes the R16 powder to get stuck in it as the hole itself is just way too small.

i have got Lee deluxe unit too - it cannot be used with dillon from what i can see - in the way to be shell activated like this hornady, and it makes it useless for me. i may look more into it, may be i will find the way to make lee one to work with xl750 - but the design of lee, mechanically - it way inferior to all others. the hornady one is actually supposed to work, i think, with a proper powder drop tube. ideally - the single one long tube you do twist into the measure itself. first big flaw is that it is not a single tube but a combination of a short powder drop tube in the base and the screw-in one. no excuse for that, really. a combination of 2 would probably never be capable to work great.
dunno. i`ll need to think what to do with it all now.
 
paul73 said:
So, as it was recommended by @EddieCoyle quite a long time ago i finally decided to get it for an experiment - it all finally arrived - the setup was not difficult, but so far results are rather frustrating.
i wanted to improve drops of - specifically - or Reloder 16 powder. My modified and improved dillon bar setup drops it for 41.8gr target deviating in average from 41.5 to 42gr with high and low drops to be relatively rare, when i measure it i see mostly deviations from 41.7 to 41.9. but, still, for 6.5CM loads to have both 41.5 and 42 in a same batch is not ideal. The annoying part is that is often cuts powder straws, but, mostly works flawlessly.

So, so far results i see from the Horandy measure do disappoint greatly. Assembly seems to be fine. i used a bit of graphite to make sure it rotates freely, seems to have no gaps. I did set it up for same 41.8gr target, and here is the last sequence of drops i bothered to record:

42.8, 42.1, 42.2, 41.8, 41.9, 42.4, 42.1

42.8 is not a glitch - it did similar before. Not sure what to think of it all, to be honest. Nothing seems to be faulty, at a first glance, and seems to operate smoothly. it cuts powder much less than dillon.
But, it did 3 times a very annoying powder stuck thing, when only 13 or 20 gr drops into the shell, and rest is stuck in the tube - dillon never ever did that. I could probably fix that issue with some polishing and cleaning/degreasing - but the overthrow by a whole grain so far seems to be a total showstopper. Very frustrating. Dunno if it is my luck with a defective unit, or if it is how it works with a large long stick powders like R16. So, that's the story for today.

View attachment 558493
Click to expand...
I find my hornady did not drop well until I got a baffle then it took a little time to get the consistent throw of the handle, i do hand cycle mine.
So anytime your pull and rotation differs from the last you might get more “settling” of the powder.
Example from using my lee pro 1000 .
It drops very consistent until I miss a step , have a jam or cycle through with out a case. That next drop will always be high.

Other than that my hornady throws very consistent with trailboss - donut flakes
H4895 and everything in between.

Another little test you can do
Weigh empty case , tar out your scale , drop powder and weigh for powder drop weight. Seat your bullet
Log it , i write on the case
Then do 10 more. Now run those 10 powder drops no matter what they weigh with in safety margins of course , over the crony
Note each shot , powder charge and velocity.
I think there is a lot of “over thinking” on powder charge weight. The entire system was based on volume.
I get why some want to be “exact” in powder charged . Keeps a variable “constant”
Good luck
 
paul73 said:
well, the issue is - the drop tubes it came with are simply no good, design wise.
dillon ones are set per caliber - they allow the neck to enter in and have a ledge above so powder drops into shell but not getting stuck due to contact with brass edge. the design here is - first of all - only the pistol drop tube is long enough to work in one piece. then both rifle drop tubes have just a cone to meet the neck - and the bigger one would not work for 6.5CM neck as it drops into the hole and would make powder contact the brass and stuck.
the smaller one - the only one that can be used - makes the R16 powder to get stuck in it as the hole itself is just way too small.

i have got Lee deluxe unit too - it cannot be used with dillon from what i can see - in the way to be shell activated like this hornady, and it makes it useless for me. i may look more into it, may be i will find the way to make lee one to work with xl750 - but the design of lee, mechanically - it way inferior to all others. the hornady one is actually supposed to work, i think, with a proper powder drop tube. ideally - the single one long tube you do twist into the measure itself. first big flaw is that it is not a single tube but a combination of a short powder drop tube in the base and the screw-in one. no excuse for that, really. a combination of 2 would probably never be capable to work great.
dunno. i`ll need to think what to do with it all now.
Click to expand...
Yeah the Hornady comes with 3 drop tubes if I remember correctly? So it's more of a one size fits all approach rather than a caliber specific tubes from Dillon I guess. I've used the Hornady measure for 223, 30-30, 30-06, and 7.5 swiss without any issues with the drop tubes. But then again 6.5 isn't 22 cal or 30 cal.

I can't use the Lee PPM with my hornady press. I just have setup on my bench as a standalone powder measure for when I use IMR-4064 or Trail Boss powder. The only other rifle powders I use are H335 and CFE223 which work fine in the hornady measure.

I think R16 is a coarser powder no? Do you get any binding or crunching with that?
 
paul73 said:
well, the issue is - the drop tubes it came with are simply no good, design wise.
dillon ones are set per caliber - they allow the neck to enter in and have a ledge above so powder drops into shell but not getting stuck due to contact with brass edge. the design here is - first of all - only the pistol drop tube is long enough to work in one piece. then both rifle drop tubes have just a cone to meet the neck - and the bigger one would not work for 6.5CM neck as it drops into the hole and would make powder contact the brass and stuck.
the smaller one - the only one that can be used - makes the R16 powder to get stuck in it as the hole itself is just way too small.

i have got Lee deluxe unit too - it cannot be used with dillon from what i can see - in the way to be shell activated like this hornady, and it makes it useless for me. i may look more into it, may be i will find the way to make lee one to work with xl750 - but the design of lee, mechanically - it way inferior to all others. the hornady one is actually supposed to work, i think, with a proper powder drop tube. ideally - the single one long tube you do twist into the measure itself. first big flaw is that it is not a single tube but a combination of a short powder drop tube in the base and the screw-in one. no excuse for that, really. a combination of 2 would probably never be capable to work great.
dunno. i`ll need to think what to do with it all now.
Click to expand...
It will be pretty sad if the Lee ends up working better than dillon or hornady if you can work out the function.
You would think by now dillon powder drop problems would be hashed out.
Or is it dillon says “good enough” ?
 
mac1911 said:
I find my hornady did not drop well until I got a baffle then it took a little time to get the consistent throw of the handle, i do hand cycle mine.
So anytime your pull and rotation differs from the last you might get more “settling” of the powder.
Example from using my lee pro 1000 .
It drops very consistent until I miss a step , have a jam or cycle through with out a case. That next drop will always be high.

Other than that my hornady throws very consistent with trailboss - donut flakes
H4895 and everything in between.

Another little test you can do
Weigh empty case , tar out your scale , drop powder and weigh for powder drop weight. Seat your bullet
Log it , i write on the case
Then do 10 more. Now run those 10 powder drops no matter what they weigh with in safety margins of course , over the crony
Note each shot , powder charge and velocity.
I think there is a lot of “over thinking” on powder charge weight. The entire system was based on volume.
I get why some want to be “exact” in powder charged . Keeps a variable “constant”
Good luck
Click to expand...
Interesting you had good luck with TB in the hornady. I think I tried it and I'd get an occasional bind so I decided to just use the Lee PPM
 
mac1911 said:
It will be pretty sad if the Lee ends up working better than dillon or hornady if you can work out the function.
You would think by now dillon powder drop problems would be hashed out.
Or is it dillon says “good enough” ?
Click to expand...
All I know is that I get +/- 0.1 gr or so with the Lee PPM and IMR-4064. Works very well.
 
mac1911 said:
Good luck
Click to expand...
yeah...
the way to fix the f***er is to get that part -

HORNADY L-N-L 17 cal POWDER MEASURE SLEEVE - Graf & Sons

17 caliber sleeve for the Hornady Lock-N-Load Powder Measure (sold separately).
www.grafs.com www.grafs.com

then drill it for a required caliber, with a ledge for the neck - just like the dillon powder drop funnel is made. that would fix most issues.
but this needs a lathe.

also - i see those parts:

HORNADY POWDER THRU EXPANDER FOR (.357) BULLETS - Graf & Sons

Powder Through Expanders (PTX) are designed to work in conjunction with the Case Activated Powder Drop. The new expanders eliminate the need for a seperate case mouth expander die on the LNL-AP progressive press, freeing up an extra station for a taper crimp die or powder cop. The Expanders work...
www.grafs.com www.grafs.com

does anybody have this set - what exactly are they, i would love to see a more hi-res picture to understand the dimensions. it is so odd the smallest size they show there is .357"
 
May not be necessary but I add a little bit of grease where the linkage is (circled in yellow) and then added a light coating of hornady one shot cleaner/lube on the outside of powder measure funnel thingy whatever its called. The metal tube that slides up and down - pointed in green
Untitled.jpg
 
andrew1220 said:
All I know is that I get +/- 0.1 gr or so with the Lee PPM and IMR-4064. Works very well.
Click to expand...
I run lee auto drums on my pro 1000. I have set ups for 223 , 30 carbine , 45 acp and 38spl
I have not met a powder the auto drum dislikes.
The hornady is used mostly for rifle and 99% of the time its a stick powder varget, 8208, 4895 , 4064 and I dont have any issues. I will get a powder bridge once in a great while

Trailboss will be in more use for some time. Running reduced loads and cast to save on current inventory
 
andrew1220 said:
May not be necessary but I add a little bit of grease where the linkage is (circled in yellow) and then added a light coating of hornady one shot cleaner/lube on the outside of powder measure funnel thingy whatever its called. The metal tube that slides up and down - pointed in green
View attachment 558507
Click to expand...
i use this, only in a bit different packaging, dry graphite lube
www.homedepot.com

Hillman 3 g Powdered Graphite Lubricant 703185 - The Home Depot

Ideal for household and auto needs. The Hillman Group 3 g Powdered Graphite Lubricant has a nozzle tip for easy insertion. It is safe to use on any surface.
www.homedepot.com

operation wise it is all smooth, i ordered some other funnels to drill to the size, and will need to polish it all with dremel. will see, if it can be made to work properly.
if not, too bad.
 
Last edited:
Fixxah said:
One is set up to operate on the press, the other by hand.
Click to expand...
actually looking at the picture it seems to have a micrometer there - but i wonder if it uses the same inner drum or not. looks to be same, i think...
 
ok, so, i got somewhat of a fix for this measure drop contraption, after some head scratching.

first of all - the powder drop tube needs to be drilled through with a 1/4" bit, and then make a ledge - that completely fixed stuck powder issues.
second - the original design says put only one tube in - it creates issues, so both rifle tubes need to be inserted, that brings measure a bit higher - but it then remains under constant load inside.
then the measure bolt needs to be tightened crazy tight. the is also an issue of whole measure bolt assembly to have a bit of a play - i will try some plumbing teflon tape there to make it sitting 100% still.

the last sequence i measured - also shows some deviations, but it looks to be mostly usable. there was some other issue where in some time it appears it has a tendency to move and be set at 41.5gr from 41.9gn and remain at 41.5 - but then it stopped doing it. anyway:
41.9, 41.8, 41.9, 41.8, 42.0, 42.2 (was a powder cut jolt around those parts), 41.3, 41.7, 41.5, 41.6, 42.0, 41.9, 41.9, 41.7

so, while not perfect - it seems to be on par with a dillon bar now. plus it can be a powder density fluctuation also, i guess, when it migrates from proper 41.8 to 41.5 and then to 42. go figure.

h2.jpg
 
i was never one for working with a measure that threw a charge when the press handle was worked. i still manually throw my powder charges when i'm working with a progressive press unless i'm cranking out junk bulk ammo where i don't really care about consistency of the charge. it's just me. i feel i have better control of the measure if i work it by hand each time. of course that's not foolproof either and i'd be a fool if i expected the exact same powder drop with each rotation of the handle.
 
greencobra said:
i feel i have better control of the measure if i work it by hand each time
Click to expand...
i disagree with that greatly, as the movement from the press handle is way more fluid and stable and consistent than a direct application of your wrist to a short handle of the powder measure. it is just plain mechanics. when it works - it just works. the dillon bars now work perfectly with varget, and it makes me able to stamp 200-300 rounds in a single seating in 20 minutes. i do not have much free time to sit in the reloading room re-measuring an every drop. that is why i have paid for a progressive press to begin with.

there is nothing mysterious there, it is just plain mechanical engineering. any mechanism can be improved and tuned for a more or less stable operation. anyway, i made a set of 50 in a batch with the dillon bar, will make now set of 50 6.5CM with this hornady drum, and will see how it will perform. in practical reality, when the brass and neck sizing are treated consistently enough the 41.7 vs 42gr of R16 powder does not produce significant enough deviation in drop or accuracy. it is of course preferable for it to be consistent, but, as long as it deviates in .3gr top - i am ok with it.

the primary difference, again - the drum cuts R16 powder sticks much less compared to dillon bar and does not get stuck as bad as bar does. so overall smoothness is better, and it works faster.
 
1903Collector said:
But then again I do all my rifle rounds on a single stage.
Click to expand...
as do i
paul73 said:
when it works - it just works.
Click to expand...
WHEN it works.

we all have different methods. but one thing i get is a feel for is how a lot of powder is reacting in the measure. do i feel resistance? is it metering accurately? and that's what i call "accurately enough." i really don't get that feedback when i auto dump from a progressive. i still will think a manually dumped charge is going to be a more consistent charge. on the progressive dump you depend on a spring and/or linkage. two more pieces of the puzzle. bottom line is both work but only one can work better most of the time. which one? probably depends on the operator.
 
paul73 said:
the last sequence i measured - . . .
Click to expand...
To what extent are we certain the scale and its use are rock-solid, 1000% accurate? Are we assured there is no variance in the weighing? We sometimes have an inclination to place implicit trust in something like a scale when, in reality, most of them are no more accurate than a well-regulated powder drop.
 
Editor said:
To what extent are we certain the scale and its use are rock-solid, 1000% accurate? Are we assured there is no variance in the weighing? We sometimes have an inclination to place implicit trust in something like a scale when, in reality, most of them are no more accurate than a well-regulated powder drop.
Click to expand...
Good point. Helpful to have check/calibration weights handy
 
I drilled a long pistol insert with a .250 drill, milled the part that contacts the case flat, and polished the ramp that faces the powder.

With that said, I throw all of my precision stuff with an RCBS charging scale.

I have a Prometheus new-in-box that I haven't tried yet because I'm not sure if I want to sell it or use it.

I wouldn't drink Busch Light from a Lee powder measure, let alone use it to make ammo.
 
EddieCoyle said:
I drilled a long pistol insert with a .250 drill, milled the part that contacts the case flat, and polished the ramp that faces the powder.

With that said, I throw all of my precision stuff with an RCBS charging scale.

I have a Prometheus new-in-box that I haven't tried yet because I'm not sure if I want to sell it or use it.

I wouldn't drink Busch Light from a Lee powder measure, let alone use it to make ammo.
Click to expand...
i loaded more 6.5cm and actually in the end took time to see the exact distribution of drops for a 30 rounds done in a row.
so, with the same target of 41.8gr of Reloder 16 - the tally was:
41.7 - 12 times
41.8 - 8 times
41.9 - 10 times

and there were 6 rejects:
41.6 - 2 times
42 - 2 times
42.2
42.3

at and above 42gr overdrop happens almost every time when measure bites into the Reloder16 sticks and cuts them. i by now just know that anytime it happens i need to reject the drop and re-do it. overall, i think R16 is the most unpleasant powder to deal with with longest sticks, and, overall, it is still manageable enough to load with this measure.
dillon one does much worse job with it, it gets stuck and cuts an almost every drop making process a torture.

i will take those rounds to 300yds then to see what sort of a factual grouping i am going to see there, as at 100yds this .2gr diff is not even relevant.
 

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