Hopkinton chief pulls 3 officers' LTCs

drgrant

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The police go to the judge with a list of the guns they think you own and the judge will tell you to turn them in or be held in contempt.
Not sure how they can hold you if you don't possess guns here and aren't otherwise a prohibited person. Further, by this reasoning, there's going to be a lot of people who cannot produce guns that they've sold a long time ago etcetera that will appear on the stupid list... So they can hold you indefinitely for not producing guns you don't physically have? Not buying that. I've heard of people being threatened with this but I've never heard of it actually happening. I think 99% of it is a big lie used by the PD to try to get "more" stuff out of people.
 

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This isn't about an attack on freedom. This is about three shitty police who want the world to run the way it did 30 years ago using PTSD to rape the town. This is a calculated play by the chief and I applaud him.
So you applaud it because they are cops? What if it were a regular joe that he thought was scamming.......would you feel the same way?

If a cop went to hr and claimed they had an alcohol problem would he have pulled their ltc? If a cop went to mental health treatment facility would they he have pulled their ltc? I get it.......somewhat......sure these three COULD be scamming .......is there PROOF they are?

This is treading on Shakey ground. Like cams said......PTSD is a valid claim for alot of vets......is chiefy boy gonna pull those ltcs if a vet is receiving VA benefits for PTSD? While I'm not a fan of cops scamming.......using an LTC suitability grab as "tit for tat" is opening up a world we don't want to see.
 

42!

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All the speculation is ultimately useless because we don't have the key information that would make the difference. We don't have the reports or the officer's history. This could all be internal political BS or there could be a history of violence and a report that says the officers are on the verge of climbing a bell tower with a rifle. If these guys are truly dangerous I'd want the CoP to do something, if not then he's a total AH.
 

whacko

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This isn't about an attack on freedom. This is about three shitty police who want the world to run the way it did 30 years ago using PTSD to rape the town. This is a calculated play by the chief and I applaud him.
If a cop went to hr and claimed they had an alcohol problem would he have pulled their ltc? If a cop went to mental health treatment facility would they he have pulled their ltc? I get it.......somewhat......sure these three COULD be scamming .......is there PROOF they are?

This is treading on Shakey ground. Like cams said......PTSD is a valid claim for alot of vets......is chiefy boy gonna pull those ltcs if a vet is receiving VA benefits for PTSD?
The Chief may be a dick, but I have no issue with police getting the same treatment that a citizen gun owner would also be subject to in said town.
Same treatment? I'm not aware of a single massachusetts case where a citizen has had an LTC pulled by a chief for seeking treatment and receiving government benefits for PTSD. Are you?
 
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whacko

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Could you rub your crystal ball and give me the numbers for tonight while you’re at it?
Like you ...I find it amazing that anyone on NES would applaud this case. For two reasons:

1. The 3 cops MAY be scamming......where the is the proof and the due process? Thought us nesers were supposedly champions of due process and limiting power of the chiefs.

2. The "cops get the same treatment as us" applauders.......show me a single case in mass where a citizen has had their ltc pulled by a chief for PTSD benefits being received. This is NOT a case of cops being treated "same as us".......this is new territory that we should be beating down with a club!
 
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JRT

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Like you ...I find it amazing that anyone on NES would applaud this case. For two reasons:

1. The 3 cops MAY be scamming......where the is the proof and the due process? Thought us nesers were supposedly champions of due process and limiting power of the chiefs.

2. The "cops get the same treatment as us" applauders.......show me a single case in mass where a citizen has had their ltc pulled by a chief for PTSD benefits being received. This is NOT a case of cops being treated "same as us".......this is new territory that we should be beating down with a club!
I trust you put the same or more effort in fighting for 2A rights where it matters, because on this board your are just tilting at windmills. By all means though, continue with your feigned amazement.
 

whacko

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I trust you put the same or more effort in fighting for 2A rights where it matters, because on this board your are just tilting at windmills. By all means though, continue with your feigned amazement.
I worry about a presidence being set. I don't think that's at all over the top.

Plenty of folks (especially vets) end up with VA claims for PTSD and receive benefits for it. Is the chief going to pull LTC for suitability there? My point is not that the 3 cops are totally in the clear here......what I don't approve of here is the chief pulling a "suitability" case and pulling an ltc with no due process. If his 3 officers are shamming......how about some due process first......I do expect cops and citizens to be treated the same under the bullshit LTC program we have in mass.......but it has to work both ways.
 

whacko

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Lol ... I dont hate cops. I just dont feel sorry when one of them gets what all of us would get.

They still didnt get it as bad as most of us would. We would probably get a visit from a SWAT team and our dog shot. These guys got a nice warning.
We'd get a Swat team visit for being out of work for a work related a mental health claim?

Cops are probably shamming.....but pulling the LTC for a PTSD claim is territory we don't want chiefs to enter into.
 
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drgrant

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All the speculation is ultimately useless because we don't have the key information that would make the difference. We don't have the reports or the officer's history. This could all be internal political BS or there could be a history of violence and a report that says the officers are on the verge of climbing a bell tower with a rifle. If these guys are truly dangerous I'd want the CoP to do something, if not then he's a total AH.
True enough but there are "3 cops with PTSD" supposedly. The problem is that not everyone diagnosed with PTSD is a threat to public safety. The insinuation of "unsuitable cuz PTSD" , at least, by itself, without other information, is pretty weaksauce. PTSD, like depression and other mental illnesses, describes a broad container ship sized entity, and only a portion of that spectrum is something that I would call a "risk" or a potential harm to the general public. If it wasn't, then people would be getting plugged/stabbed/beaten up by veterans with PTSD every day, and that simply isn't the reality. As you suggest, though, "maybe there is something he knows that we don't know" but I find it hard to believe that all 3 of these guys are a public safety risk, the probability of that actually being true is pretty low.

-Mike
 

whacko

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True enough but there are "3 cops with PTSD" supposedly. The problem is that not everyone diagnosed with PTSD is a threat to public safety. The insinuation of "unsuitable cuz PTSD" , at least, by itself, without other information, is pretty weaksauce. PTSD, like depression and other mental illnesses, describes a broad container ship sized entity, and only a portion of that spectrum is something that I would call a "risk" or a potential harm to the general public. If it wasn't, then people would be getting plugged/stabbed/beaten up by veterans with PTSD every day, and that simply isn't the reality. As you suggest, though, "maybe there is something he knows that we don't know" but I find it hard to believe that all 3 of these guys are a public safety risk, the probability of that actually being true is pretty low.

-Mike
Ding ding ding......we have a winner.

Cops might be shamming.....but pulling the LTC for PTSD is un charted territory.....and Shakey .....even for mass.
 

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The thing I take out of this.....

from the article: The (suspensions) were without reasonable grounds, and the decision to deny by the defendant was arbitrary, capricious and an abuse of discretion,” Reagan wrote, “and constitutes a discrimination....

Just about every denial for suitability is without reasonable grounds, and is arbitrary, capricious and an abuse of discretion. No shit. So repeal discretion.
 

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Sure sounds like they were gaming the worker’s comp game and ol’ Chief-boy decided to go full tyrant on them as payback. It’s also pretty ridiculous to use post traumatic stress as the reason, and what medical records does the chief have access to? Medical records should only be visible to certain individuals.

Lastly, I’m a little confused about one aspect. He says he mailed the revocation orders to their hometowns. I guess they all lived in Hopkinton at one point within 6 years and he was the original issuer.
Depends on what's in the collective bargaining agreement with the town.

The medical records (or information provided to the chief), don't have to go into full detail.
Depending on the situation, all that might be required is a note from a physician that 'due to XXX, officer so and so is unable
to perform his/her duties'.

I wouldn't be surprised if it was well known by officers in that department, that there's common knowledge of a doctor they can
all go to who will sign off on their condition with a wink and a nod or without question.

I'm guessing that their contract must also have a clause that states that certain medical conditions (like PTSD), makes an exemption
for placing them on a desk job/light duty.

OK playing devils advocate, short of the new "red flag" type legislation, or a "pink slip" committal against ones will (involuntary admission to a mental health facility) , a revocation based on a response where a person was observed being a danger to him/herself or others, or a notification from a medical professional to the licensing authority that a LTC holder was a danger to himself or others based upon statements made, how would a C.O.P. have any knowledge of a reason to yank a LTC?

If an Officer went to E.A.P. and asked for help with a drinking problem, would a Chief bench them and pull their LTC?

Look, if you read my posts, you will find the boys in Blue and I are often at odds, but at face value this stinks.

A local cop that I had a long running battle with was the first officer into an office building where SEVEN people were killed. He walked in and the shooter was sitting there with the gun.... I know for a fact that that cop was never the same.. several reliable sources told me so, but he stayed on the job with his LTC... and he was the poster boy for PTSD IMHO ( and as much as I dislike the man, I would not wish upon my worst enemy what he went thru).
Wakefield/'Mucko' McDermott?
 
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Cops love to have their cake and eat it too.

This wouldn’t even be a story if police never had discretion to issue, deny, or revoke a license that never existed in the first place. This wouldn’t be a story if these three either just did their job, or if unable, quit or were fired, instead of milking taxpayer money for years to NOT work.

The chiefs action probably is retaliatory. The three cops actions are probably claims are probably bullshit. It would be ironic if this resulted in the three cops and Chief all being unemployed and unsuitable.
 
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Al458

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Same treatment? I'm not aware of a single massachusetts case where a citizen has had an LTC pulled by a chief for seeking treatment and receiving government benefits for PTSD. Are you?
My town licensing officer asked questions from a piece of paper writing down the answers I gave with one of the questions specifically "have you ever been treated for depression or anxiety". What happens if you have to answer yes to that question I'm not sure, but I certainly dont see it as a stretch if your local pd catches wind of something like that they could pull your ltc and I'm guessing a judge wouldn't be siding with you if you fought it. I agree that this sounds like in house b.s and the chief is just playing games, but if this is allowed to stand it sets a very dangerous precedent
 

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We'd get a Swat team visit for being out of work for a work related a mental health claim?
There are many possibilities. Under current MA law, if you are having a small beef with a neighbor and the neighbor knows you are a vet with a PTSD disability, all it takes is a phone call and that swat team just might show up.
 

whacko

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There are many possibilities. Under current MA law, if you are having a small beef with a neighbor and the neighbor knows you are a vet with a PTSD disability, all it takes is a phone call and that swat team just might show up.
Agreed on cops being called on a neighbor. But now your stretching.

That's not what happened in this case.....nobody called the cops and complained about any of these offioffers. The chief pulled the LTC on people that were out of work due to mental health claims. That's where my issue is and where I find its not "yeah.....stick it to the cops so they get treated like us peasants". That is not the situation here....... It's uncharted territory legally. If this case sticks.......it's an opening for chiefs to deny or revoke based purely on employment status with respect to mental health.
 
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42!

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Agreed on cops being called on a neighbor. But now your stretching.

That's not what happened in this case.....nobody called the cops and complained about any of these offioffers. The chief pulled the LTC on people that were out of work due to mental health claims. That's where my issue is and where I find its not "yeah.....stick it to the cops so they get treated like us peasants". That is not the situation here....... It's uncharted territory legally. If this case sticks.......it's an opening for chiefs to deny or revoke based purely on employment status with respect to mental health.
I don't necessarily disagree with you. But you say "purely on employment status with respect to mental health", and the reality is we don't have all the info the Chief has, which includes both past behavior and Med reports (part of their disability claim), and we never will because of the privacy requirements. So for me this situation is an even split of possible Dept. Politics, Disability scam, or real. And we will never know.
 

falcon123

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If the COP is overreaching on the suitability issue in this case, that might be the straw that breaks the camel's back and have this crap finally end. Finally remove this power from the COP.
 
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Something to keep in mind... in downtown Boston there's a large, well-designed Netezza appliance with all medical claims from MA commercial payers (Blue Cross, Tufts, etc.). It would take 20 minutes to write and run a query to report all residents who have had selected mental health diagnoses or related prescriptions. The VHA has a similar SQL Server database housed in Austin. It will only be a matter of time (a bad enough mass shooting) before these claims are used to deny or revoke gun licenses and as a pretext for confiscation. In a given year, 1/5 of Americans have a mental health diagnosis.

I'm not suggesting avoiding treatment, but just have a backup plan for guns.
 

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Chiefs routinely issue LTCs to their officers, whether they live in town or elsewhere.
(As distinguished from "carrying on the badge", right?)

NES doesn't even know whether the chief issued resident LTCs to
and/all of the Hopkinton Three,
and if they lived out of town, he'd just be rescinding
what should never have been issued in the first place.

If so, what a weird coincidence...


BTW, Hopkinton's last known Comm2A color code (2017) is Yellow/Green.
1.4% of72 new LTCs were restricted, but 0.0% of 60 renewals had them.
 

fencer

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1. The 3 cops MAY be scamming......where the is the proof and the due process? Thought us nesers were supposedly champions of due process and limiting power of the chiefs.

2. The "cops get the same treatment as us" applauders.......show me a single case in mass where a citizen has had their ltc pulled by a chief for PTSD benefits being received. This is NOT a case of cops being treated "same as us".......this is new territory that we should be beating down with a club!
Most accurate post in the thread. Much truth here.
I just can't fathom that this tactic is the best approach. If the officers are scamming the system, drag their asses into court and prove it. Then make them pay back every red cent, and fine them as well as punish them as allowed by law.
This action by the CoP appears petty and vengeful. The only reason I can think of to yank their LTC's is if they are making side money buying off list guns and selling them for a profit, exploiting their status as law enforcement.
And even if they were, no one individual should have the power to strip a citizen of their rights. That is tyranny. Just like when the Attn General suddenly decides she and she alone will reinterpret laws to suit her own political views. Straight up, unabashed tyranny.
 

swatgig

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The only reason I can think of to yank their LTC's is if they are making side money buying off list guns and selling them for a profit, exploiting their status as law enforcement.
Personally, I don't have a problem with ANYONE buying or selling guns, but if they were actually buying and selling off list guns for profit, that would bring down a host of other charges.

What I keep thinking about is that all three individuals, who had been suffering PTSD for over a year, magically became unsuitable on the same day.
 
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Rock: If an officer claims serious PTSD it may be used as justification to revoke an LTC.

Hard Place: If an officer claims to not have PTSD, or reports symptoms consistent with responsible gun ownership, his/her chances of having full disability approved decrease.
 
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