To the public, yes. On the FFL application form you must state what hours you plan to be open for business. In question #13, they actually want the "open" and "close" time in each box.
http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-5310-12.pdf
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Home FFL In Massachusetts
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To the public, yes. On the FFL application form you must state what hours you plan to be open for business. In question #13, they actually want the "open" and "close" time in each box.
http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-5310-12.pdf
dcmdon
NES Member
The thing to remember here is that this is simply a process. You check the boxes, go through the process and a FFL pops out the other end.
All you really need to do is show:
1) compliance with state and local laws
2) an intention to engage in the business of selling firearms. (ATF can not pull your FFL for too little volume once you have it)
3) compliance with the requirements as set forth on the application.
Contrary what some said early in this post, the ATF is NOT looking for an excuse to deny you. They could frankly care less. My experience with them has been that they were completely ambivalent with regard to my application, as long as I was in full compliance with all laws and truly intended to engage in business.
Don
All you really need to do is show:
1) compliance with state and local laws
2) an intention to engage in the business of selling firearms. (ATF can not pull your FFL for too little volume once you have it)
3) compliance with the requirements as set forth on the application.
Contrary what some said early in this post, the ATF is NOT looking for an excuse to deny you. They could frankly care less. My experience with them has been that they were completely ambivalent with regard to my application, as long as I was in full compliance with all laws and truly intended to engage in business.
Don
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Back in the 90's it was so easy to get an FFL, just fill out the form send the money, and in 60 days I had my FFL.Anything I wanted would be mailed right to the house,all I had to do is log it into the bound book.Then came the day the ATF and Boston police show up at the house,wanting to know if I sold any guns and I did not have a State licence to do so. Then came the punch line, well if you turn in your FFL now we will not have to pull it when it expires because you do not have a state licence,and that is when Boston started to get rid of all FFL's in the city.
one-eyed Jack
Manufacturer
I bought my first FFL 30 years ago and have had no issues with ATF. Always kept the state license current. It was Clinton who told ATF to get rid of as many dealers as possible by finding anything wrong. Yours is a perfect example. I guess that if you had tried to get the state license then, they probably would have denied you because of zoning. Jack
one-eyed Jack
Manufacturer
I don't think that they really care if you "truly intend to engage in business" or not, but you tell them that anyway. What they frown on is you getting the FFL just to "enhance a personal collection", especially the NFA stuff and avoid paying the transfer taxes. Tax evasion. Jack.
dcmdon
NES Member
They just want to see a tangible effort.
Honestly the thing that they were most diligent about was the zoning. They actually sent the investigator who was doing my app to my town hall to make sure that the Zoning license I included with the app was genuine.
Don
Honestly the thing that they were most diligent about was the zoning. They actually sent the investigator who was doing my app to my town hall to make sure that the Zoning license I included with the app was genuine.
Don
if the ATF just wants to make sure you are in compliance with zoning, then what is Massachusetts law about zoning? is a residential zoned FFL for internet sales gonna fly? seems like that wouldn't need to be zoned anything special in MA without a dealer license.
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dcmdon
NES Member
MA has a state law prohibiting FFLs in homes. There's a lot of subterfuge on this. i've asked for a link to the law, but havenot gotten one.
It all varies by town zoning ordinances. Most town zoning ordinances have some kind of carve out for what is called a "Customary Home Occupation".
It doesn't specify what the occupation must be. Rather, it describes in general terms how it must operate:
1) minimal or no signage
2) limited or no employee parking
3) no heavy equipment outside
4) no noise, dust, odor created
5) limited amount of retail or delivery traffic.
In general, you don't want to do anything that would detract from the residential nature of the neighborhood.
I agreed to limit myself to 4 retail transactions per month in order to avoid a fight with the zoning enforcement officer.
I had no:
1) signage
2) employees
3) on street parking
etc.
Also, keep in mind that the BATFE has redefined "manufacturing" to be as little as re-stocking a rifle for future sale. So its no longer difficult to get a manufacturers FFL. As an added benefit, a manufacturer is exempt from the CT AWB.
http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2009-1.pdf
dcmdon
NES Member
You don't have to be zoned for a business. At least not as far as the ATF or the town are concerned.
I just took a look at Arlinton, MA's zoning bylaws and they do provide a carve out for a customary home occupation.
http://www.arlingtonma.gov/public_documents/arlingtonMA_zoningbylaws/ZoningBylawsFull.pdf
I have found that the key to dealing with town zoning officials is to walk into their office with full knowledge of the law. You don't walk in, hat in hand and ask if something is legal.
The arlington bylaws do prohibit retail sales, but in this era of Gunbroker and AuctionArms, you could have a very legitimate business doing nothing but selling guns over the internet.
I just took a look at Arlinton, MA's zoning bylaws and they do provide a carve out for a customary home occupation.
http://www.arlingtonma.gov/public_documents/arlingtonMA_zoningbylaws/ZoningBylawsFull.pdf
I have found that the key to dealing with town zoning officials is to walk into their office with full knowledge of the law. You don't walk in, hat in hand and ask if something is legal.
The arlington bylaws do prohibit retail sales, but in this era of Gunbroker and AuctionArms, you could have a very legitimate business doing nothing but selling guns over the internet.
Here ya go...
MGL 140-123 said:
http://www.malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXX/Chapter140/Section123
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but that looks like its pertaining to MA issued liscenses, ie MA dealers and LTCs etc. Would that have any effect on a home based online only FFL?
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dcmdon
NES Member
Kevlar,
My ADHD kicked in. I was incapable of reading past the point where they were talking about melting points of metals.
Does that law specify that a Mass license is necessary for retail sales? Or does it say anything that would apply to someone who does not engage in the "delivery" of firearms?
If you want to tell me to man up stop my bitching and read the 5 pages of single spaced legalese, then thats fine.
Don
My ADHD kicked in. I was incapable of reading past the point where they were talking about melting points of metals.
Does that law specify that a Mass license is necessary for retail sales? Or does it say anything that would apply to someone who does not engage in the "delivery" of firearms?
If you want to tell me to man up stop my bitching and read the 5 pages of single spaced legalese, then thats fine.
Don
I am certainly not well versed in the intricacies of being licensed as a FFL on the State or Federal level, or the interplay between the two.
That said, I do know the following:
MGL 140-123 requires that those licensed as a MA dealer (MGL 140-122) must maintain a premises which is not a "residence or dwelling".
In order to sell more than four firearms per year, to other than a FFL (and several other exemptions not relevant here), one must hold a MA dealer's license (MGL 140-128/128A).
The generally accepted principals of interstate commerce dictate that the "sale" occurs in the originating state.
It would seem to me that a MA dealer's license is necessary to conduct business as a FFL, online or otherwise.
Of course, IANAL, and would welcome any insight from those who are more knowledgeable in these matters.
That said, I do know the following:
MGL 140-123 requires that those licensed as a MA dealer (MGL 140-122) must maintain a premises which is not a "residence or dwelling".
In order to sell more than four firearms per year, to other than a FFL (and several other exemptions not relevant here), one must hold a MA dealer's license (MGL 140-128/128A).
The generally accepted principals of interstate commerce dictate that the "sale" occurs in the originating state.
It would seem to me that a MA dealer's license is necessary to conduct business as a FFL, online or otherwise.
Of course, IANAL, and would welcome any insight from those who are more knowledgeable in these matters.
dcmdon
NES Member
Boy, I'm not kidding when I say that MA laws are much more confusingly written than CT statutes. I'm usually pretty good at this, but can't seem to make much of anything.
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Close, but not accurate. MA has a law against a state dealer's license in homes.
For *MOST* activities requiring an FFL, this is the same as a state ban on FFLs. There is a very narrow exception for industry consultants (tech analysis, gunwriters, photographers) that allows such parties to obtain an FFL without any intent to engage in retail trade and, therefore, engage in an FFL regulated activity that does not require the state license or trigger the state prohibition. This was added as an acceptable reason for an FFL when the BATFE reversed its long standing policy that consultants to firearms manufacturers could receive guns that remained titled to the manufacturer on a temporary basis in interstate commerce without need for an FFL. The current ruling still permits that exemption, but restricts it to W2 employees (no 1099 employees or fee based consultants).
Don, you need to be more specific on which citation you are looking for . . . home dealer or BATFE on consultants needing an FFL?
I'll let Rob deal with the latter as that's his expertise.
Here's the former:
MGL C. 140 S. 123 Fifteenth:
On a serious note . . . You really should invest in Glidden's book on CD, makes finding this stuff a snap, and my seminar (and yes, I have citations for almost everything I discuss in my seminar). Then you'll have a broader understanding of what gun ownership in MA is really like!
dcmdon
NES Member
Thanks Len.
I was looking for info on the MA gun law. The ATF stuff I have a decent handle on. I've also got a decent investigator I've worked with in Hartford who is happy to find things for me.
Its interesting that the ATF in moving to require more people to have FFLs, they are inadvertently making it easier to get one. I was able to get a manufacturer's FFL because the ATF recently concluded that if you do minor gunsmithing work on your own inventory for resale, you are engaged in manufacturing. I was ok with that since an 07 FFL got me exempted from CTs AWB.
Sec. 53-202i. Circumstances in which manufacture or transportation of assault weapons not prohibited. Nothing in sections 29-37j and 53-202a to 53-202k, inclusive, and subsection (h) of section 53a-46a shall be construed to prohibit any person, firm or corporation engaged in the business of manufacturing assault weapons in this state from manufacturing or transporting assault weapons in this state for sale within this state in accordance with subdivision (1) of subsection (b) of section 53-202b or for sale outside this state.
Don
I was looking for info on the MA gun law. The ATF stuff I have a decent handle on. I've also got a decent investigator I've worked with in Hartford who is happy to find things for me.
Its interesting that the ATF in moving to require more people to have FFLs, they are inadvertently making it easier to get one. I was able to get a manufacturer's FFL because the ATF recently concluded that if you do minor gunsmithing work on your own inventory for resale, you are engaged in manufacturing. I was ok with that since an 07 FFL got me exempted from CTs AWB.
Sec. 53-202i. Circumstances in which manufacture or transportation of assault weapons not prohibited. Nothing in sections 29-37j and 53-202a to 53-202k, inclusive, and subsection (h) of section 53a-46a shall be construed to prohibit any person, firm or corporation engaged in the business of manufacturing assault weapons in this state from manufacturing or transporting assault weapons in this state for sale within this state in accordance with subdivision (1) of subsection (b) of section 53-202b or for sale outside this state.
Don
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The zoning laws, and other regulations found in the MA laws are regarding MA state firearms dealer licenses, not FFLs. I have a completely online business (westernmassfirearms.com) and no issues with the state. I am not able to do any FFL to non-FFL transactions (Form 4473), only FFL to FFL. So all my sales must ship to another FFL. A MA state dealers license is required to do any transfers, and I cant get a MA license having the business out of my home.
Because of the poorly written MA laws however, I do suffer some from distributors and wholesalers not willing to ship certain products to MA. Even though I am an FFL and can legeally receive any firearm whether its MA compliant or not.
Because of the poorly written MA laws however, I do suffer some from distributors and wholesalers not willing to ship certain products to MA. Even though I am an FFL and can legeally receive any firearm whether its MA compliant or not.
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The other trick is convincing the BATFE your business is a legit sales operation (or, alternatively, that you a re a gunwriter/firearms consultant/etc.) and in compliance with zoning. Did you have any problems with this?
dcmdon
NES Member
Rob,
While waiting for den to chime in,I'll tell you that when I applied in CT, the ATF was very easy to work with. They wanted to know that I intended to engage in commerce and not just enhance my collection, but other than that, no problem.
The biggest issue BY FAR was zoning compliance. When I met with the ATF to go over my application, I had a copy of my zoning permit in the application. I later learned that the ATF had gone to my town hall and
checked with my zoning enforcement officer to confirm that I had not doctored up an approved zoning application.
Don
p.s. There is either case law or a congressional something or other in place now that prohibits the ATF from pulling your FFL for lack of volume. I can't cite it now, but I know it to be true. Sorry about that.
While waiting for den to chime in,I'll tell you that when I applied in CT, the ATF was very easy to work with. They wanted to know that I intended to engage in commerce and not just enhance my collection, but other than that, no problem.
The biggest issue BY FAR was zoning compliance. When I met with the ATF to go over my application, I had a copy of my zoning permit in the application. I later learned that the ATF had gone to my town hall and
checked with my zoning enforcement officer to confirm that I had not doctored up an approved zoning application.
Don
p.s. There is either case law or a congressional something or other in place now that prohibits the ATF from pulling your FFL for lack of volume. I can't cite it now, but I know it to be true. Sorry about that.
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The issue is MA is no state dealer licenses form home, but in general (including my town) home based businesses are allowed provided certain limits on space used and parking needs (ie, convincing the town there will not be people parking at your house to patronize the business) are met.
What is interesting is that while the BATFE has traditionally required an intent to be in the business for profit, that changed a few years ago. A BATFE ruling was issued that the exemption that allowed consultants (Gunwriters, photographers, technical consultants, etc.) to have guns shipped without an FFL no longer covered "independents" and only covered "W2 employees". The ruling went on to state that the BATFE recognized that both professionals and volunteers (!?) engaged in this activity, and that such individuals qualified to obtain an FFL if they were engaging in such activities but not on W2 "employee status".
Zoning laws for home businesses paint with a wide brush, and tend to cover any business, not just home based businesses. But, since they are generic, they tend not to have anything special in them in regards to "firearms" - just concerns about things like percentage of the house used for the business, traffic/parking, exterior signs, etc. and do not generally pose an obstacle.
dcmdon
NES Member
Exactly. Zoning laws tend to have something to the effect that limits:
1) parking
2) noise
3) dust
4) efluent
5) signage
7) number of visitors per day.
One thing the ATF investigator told me was that the internet and places like Gunbroker.com have fundamentally changed the way they evaluate applications for FFLs.
She (yes a female investigator) told me that she had someone who she worked with who did 60 (!!!) guns a month on gunbroker and would not do a face to face transaction even if you lived next door.
All of a sudden business hours become meaningless. In fact the only reason you put business hours on your app now is so that the agents can do an unannounced compliance audit during those hours.
I looked at the regs around the business hours and came to the conclusion that you cold probably put 1:00am to 2:00 am as your hours and there is nothing they could do, but for me it wasn't worth pushing it.
I've read of some FFLs doing this to minimize the chance of an unannounced compliance audit, but to me its pointless. I found the ATF to be the easiest to work with of all the government entities I had to deal with while getting my FFL.
The most difficult was my local zoning.
To that end, I suggest that anyone who is interested purchase this book:
http://www.amazon.com/The-Complete-Guide-Zoning-Environmental/dp/0071443797
I purchased it several years ago when a home in our neighborhood was purchased by a New Yorker who wanted to knock it down and build a home that was completely out of scale for the neighborhood.
The knowledge I got reading it served me very well when applying for a zoning permit for my home based FFL.
The other thing I'd recommend is a subscription to FFL123.com
You don't need this subscription, but it puts all the info you need in one place and provides plenty of completed applications.
Don
1) parking
2) noise
3) dust
4) efluent
5) signage
7) number of visitors per day.
One thing the ATF investigator told me was that the internet and places like Gunbroker.com have fundamentally changed the way they evaluate applications for FFLs.
She (yes a female investigator) told me that she had someone who she worked with who did 60 (!!!) guns a month on gunbroker and would not do a face to face transaction even if you lived next door.
All of a sudden business hours become meaningless. In fact the only reason you put business hours on your app now is so that the agents can do an unannounced compliance audit during those hours.
I looked at the regs around the business hours and came to the conclusion that you cold probably put 1:00am to 2:00 am as your hours and there is nothing they could do, but for me it wasn't worth pushing it.
I've read of some FFLs doing this to minimize the chance of an unannounced compliance audit, but to me its pointless. I found the ATF to be the easiest to work with of all the government entities I had to deal with while getting my FFL.
The most difficult was my local zoning.
To that end, I suggest that anyone who is interested purchase this book:
http://www.amazon.com/The-Complete-Guide-Zoning-Environmental/dp/0071443797
I purchased it several years ago when a home in our neighborhood was purchased by a New Yorker who wanted to knock it down and build a home that was completely out of scale for the neighborhood.
The knowledge I got reading it served me very well when applying for a zoning permit for my home based FFL.
The other thing I'd recommend is a subscription to FFL123.com
You don't need this subscription, but it puts all the info you need in one place and provides plenty of completed applications.
Don
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I'm currently doing some homework on this topic... Can anyone site the actual mass general law MGL' s that clearly state these things... There would have to be one that clearly establishes the rules... If not, it seems like its a bunch of fear mongering by the existing ffl holders... BATF wise, it's a shall issue... They must give it to you if your ducks are in a row... So that leaves us with the state laws. There must be a MGL that, in no uncertain terms states no citizen can hold an ffl in a private residence ... If not, it's not a law..period.. I get the zoning and sales liscence stuff, which brings me to the next question... What's the first step?? Getting a sales licence?? Or zoning permit?? What comes first if your gonna do it?? Lastly, if you google mass ffl holders... A bunch come up all around me... And I drove by a couple of the addresses... And they are private houses.. How does that play out then?? Anyone care to throw in their facts??
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I know of a few they all have overhung in common though. Commercial or split zoning.
one-eyed Jack
Manufacturer
In this state at least, you will need the FFL in hand before you can apply for the state license. Make sure that you will be able to get the state license. I'd advise you to get the 07 FFL, rent a closet in an industrial bldg first (ATF will want to see it). They or the PD or both will check zoning and contact the landlord. Unless you want to have a "storefront", this is all doable. Ask me how I know. Jack.
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Which state licence are you refering to Jack? because Im fairly sure the Feds wont pony up an FFL unless you already have the sales and zoning permits..and the question is out of ones home...and not wasting funds on renting a space..and if there is a true law (MGL) in Mass prohibiting this...as stated by dcmdon..its a different game now...an Internet based one...no need to meet anyone. There are a lot of rumors around here on this topic, and little hard fact....So that brings me back to, who to go to first..Town Zoning? Town or state for sales licence?
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