We all know handgun calibers can pass through walls. I believe he was referring to the shotgun statements
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Home Defense Recommendations
- Thread starter TheLostOne
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We all know handgun calibers can pass through walls. I believe he was referring to the shotgun statements
greencobra
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ReluctantDecoy
NES Member
Wouldn't that statement rely heavily on the wall construction and type of round? Cheap single layer drywall over stud most likely won't stop a ball handgun round, but drywall over concrete block might stop a frangible or hollow point.
sure, if you have concrete walls, that changes things. For anyone that has drywall, your pistol rounds will pass through with zero problems.
Regarding frangible ammo...I would never use that for self defense.
If you want to reduce the risk of over penetration through walls, 5.56 is your best bet.
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ReluctantDecoy
NES Member
Yeah, I think I saw a test somewhere that proved a 9mm will easily pass a dozen sheets of 5/8 drywall, and insulation isn't going to help either.
I wasn't saying frangible was good for home defense. Just discussing a scenario that would potentially stop penetration. I personally use JHP rounds, but there have been times I've prepped my EDC for the range at home with range ammo and that would have been the gun in my hand if someone decided to break into my place at that exact moment.
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So I read everyone's responses and there were some really good tips that I will implement. First I will go with a handgun, I cant see myself getting a long gun cause of my shoulder and also cause of the structure of my house it will be difficult to maneuver. I'll go with a 45 acp since I cant justify the cost of pre ban mags in the 9mm such as the beretta 92 so if I am limited to tens rounds why not go with the bigger 45 and I'm already experienced with 45 shooting my father in laws m&p 45. I do plan on adding an alarm system and getting a dog. Also spending money on getting quality training. I'm also trying to get my wife involved with shooting guns and hopefully training in the future but she is pregnant so I'll hold off on that for now.
P.S. my ccw is a bodyguard 380 although I might move up in caliber
P.S. my ccw is a bodyguard 380 although I might move up in caliber
ReluctantDecoy
NES Member
I have a BG380 that is my work gun. It's the only one I have that fits in my front dress pants pockets without looking like I have a gun in my pants. That's even with the pinky mag and pocket holster. Definitely better than nothing while I'm in my work clothes, but I have noticed a few instances of light strikes with this pistol at the practice range. Sure, you can pull the trigger again with its action, but doesn't exactly inspire confidence. Running it 7 +1 with a magguts spring. Still, if I'm wearing anything other than my office clothes, it's at least 9mm. At home, I would never rely on the BG380 as a primary defense weapon, so good idea to upgrade.
Buck F
NES Member
It's pointless to try and convince some of the shotgun fanboys that a rifle can be a better home defense option, that all rifle rounds don't over-penetrate, and that some shotgun rounds can over-penetrate more than some rifle rounds. You also won't convince them that shotguns can't stop multiple attackers with a single, unaimed shot (assuming you still need to fire a shot since you probably already scared them off with the sound of chambering a round with the pump action).
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Buck F
NES Member
I highly recommend the www.simplisafe.com alarm system. It's DIY, wireless, inexpensive and feature rich.
fshalor
NES Member
And #4 shot has shit for penetration through standard wall material which will pass ball ammo like butter through an oven grate.
Shotgun should always be considered first as an HD defense weapon.
Perimeter and penetration through your surroundings are important to consider.
Never load ball for a defensive situation. It's gonna be a bouncer if you have to use it .
Chevy 2 65
NES Member
All that stuff you mentioned MIGHT also get your ass in jail etc...In mAss you are not allowed to defend yourself. Whatever happened to the guy who shot 2 scumbags in the apartment building? I think it was in or around Boston?
OK my 2 shotgun OPINIONS were
a shotgun is point and shoot, aiming does not have to be precision.
a shotgun will slow down multiple targets grouped together
I don't get where my opinion is wrong, shotguns have a pattern, you pull the trigger and if you are close enough to the target and have the weapon pointed in the direction of what you intend to shoot... chances are some of those pellets are going to connect, and if 2 objects are standing next to each other, chances are both objects are going to be subjected to lead shot.
Why do you hunt duck with a shotgun and not a rifle?
(besides stray rounds hitting things a mile away)
I would argue that shotguns need to be aimed. A shot pattern across a room or even down a hallway, will be smaller than a fist. It is actually easy to miss with a shotgun when indoors. Ducks at 30 yards are a different animal (pardon the pun
) than targets at 0-7 yards.In a self defense scenario I would encourage engaging each target independently, not as a group.
Buck F
NES Member
I would argue that shotguns need to be aimed. A shot pattern across a room or even down a hallway, will be smaller than a fist. It is actually easy to miss with a shotgun when indoors. Ducks at 30 yards are a different animal (pardon the pun
In a self defense scenario I would encourage engaging each target independently, not as a group.
So we're using shotguns to avoid over-penetrating walls but also to engage multiple targets with a single shot without having to aim precisely? Huh? Nobody sees the problem w/ that? Aside from the fact that in a home defense scenario the pattern will be too small to hit two individuals or to effectively compensate for bad aim, the notion that hitting multiple targets w/ a single round is desirable is patently absurd. If you're engaging multiple targets you can put more shots on target with more accuracy and more rapidly with a rifle than with a shotgun. A shotgun is not an excuse for imprecise aim, if you can't be bothered to aim properly don't use a gun period.
You absolutely have to aim a shotgun. Unless you're shooting buck out of a rifled barrel (in which case you're an idiot), the spread at typical inside-the-home distances is a couple of inches. So yes, you can miss with a shotgun and no, it will not magically hit multiple targets.
Buckshot will tear through drywall. Easily. It will rip through interior walls ridiculously easily. If you're using birdshot for home defense, you really need to do yourself a favor and do some research.
Shotguns have their use for home defense, no doubt about it - for sheer power they can't be beat. Just don't spread around BS. I'm just glad no one suggested racking a pump gun and scaring the bad guys away.
Buckshot will tear through drywall. Easily. It will rip through interior walls ridiculously easily. If you're using birdshot for home defense, you really need to do yourself a favor and do some research.
Shotguns have their use for home defense, no doubt about it - for sheer power they can't be beat. Just don't spread around BS. I'm just glad no one suggested racking a pump gun and scaring the bad guys away.
As for the spread at average in-home distances, do some shooting of 00 Buck at 7 yds, what you will see is a relatively small group on the paper. It needs more distance to spread out, so aimed shooting is essential contrary to popular belief.
5.56/.223 is a better round wrt penetration of walls and that is because it tumbles and fragments whereas other caliber rounds don't tend to do that. FBI did tests 20 yrs ago and proved this.
5.56/.223 is a better round wrt penetration of walls and that is because it tumbles and fragments whereas other caliber rounds don't tend to do that. FBI did tests 20 yrs ago and proved this.
They will all overpenetrate. Pistol, shotgun and rifle. If you decide to engage in CQB in your house you better know whats behind your target at all times.
Ive personally seen XM-193 penetrate 6 layers of of drywall and 2 2x4s in a straight line during live fire MOUT training in the service. The FBI is full of shit. Maybe it was James Comey in charge of that research.
Ive personally seen XM-193 penetrate 6 layers of of drywall and 2 2x4s in a straight line during live fire MOUT training in the service. The FBI is full of shit. Maybe it was James Comey in charge of that research.
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A shotgun will go through walls and set the fireworks store across the street on fire. Shotguns win.
100% this
Chevy 2 65
NES Member
Hetzer
NES Member
The Sykes-Fairbairn commando knife will make it through (1) drywalled wall at best.
Home Defense should be silent and deadly...
"Guns for show, knives for a pro"
View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0mYHjFlh74
AHM
NES Member
(I was headed here even before @Coyote33's post 21):
The Box O’ Truth #3 – The Shotgun Meets the Box O’ Truth
Money graf(s):
... tests have shown that even #4 Buckshot lacks the necessary penetration to reach the vital organs. Only 0 Buck, 00 Buck, and 000 Buck penetrate enough to reach the vital organs.
Unless you expect to be attacked by little birds, do not use birdshot. Use 00 Buck. It will do the job. ...
Unless you expect to be attacked by little birds, do not use birdshot. Use 00 Buck. It will do the job. ...
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Ever play lumberjack with birdshot? You can fell a pretty darn big tree with three rounds of birdshot up close. When the load is still together it doesn't behave like light little pellets. And remember killing isn't necessary, breaking contact is the first goal. If they run away you win, them dying is just gravy for society.
Shotgunning for birds is a very different animal than shotgunning socially, but even your duck gun needs to be aimed.
Yes, the cloud of shot gives you some wiggle room on the aim, but birdshot is comprised of dozens of not hundreds of individual pellets, and you’re shooting an animal that is nowhere near as resilient, or intent on doing you harm, or hopped on in PCP, as a person you might need to shoot.
Hitting a duck with only some of what’s in the shell works.
Conversely, 00 buck has 7 or so pellets. Each coming out of the barrel with about as much energy as a hot .32ACP. No single pellet has enough energy to be reliably effective. The more pellets hit, the better it works. That means you need a tighter pattern.
At the same time, with so few pellets, anything you do to increase the spread (to “decrease” your need to aim) decreases your chances of hitting at all.
Your HD shotgun should be set up to give you fist-sized patterns (or smaller) at your maximum engagement range.
ETA: buy, and read, Gabe Suarez’ “The Tactical Shotgun”, if you’re thinking about/ going to use a shotgun for home defense.
If you’re not shooting to kill, you shouldn’t be shooting.
Use of a firearm against another person is deadly force. Make it deadly.
