help me choose a full size & mostly metal range 9mm (MA)

[1776]

39-2

659

 

[ColdComfort]

Good advice all around, I've got a lot to think about while waiting for that LTC.

 

[Dench]

Good advice all around, I've got a lot to think about while waiting for that LTC.

Should move out of MA while you wait for that LTC

 

[mattcat38]

Have tried a few different 9mm's. Fell in love with my Beretta 92FS. Then I had Wilson Combat do some upgrades and man did it change how much I already loved it haha. But the route I went was a little pricey. Having my M9A3 done from Wilson Combat soon as well

 

[Darkslide]

Striker (e.g. Glock)	SA (e.g. 1911)	DA/SA (e.g. 92FS)
remove firearm from holster	remove firearm from holster	remove firearm from holster
insert magazine	insert magazine	insert magazine
cycle slide	cycle slide	cycle slide
	activate safety	decock
insert pistol in holster	insert pistol in holster	insert pistol in holster
BEEP	BEEP	BEEP
remove firearm from holster	remove firearm from holster	remove firearm from holster
	deactivate safety
join hands	join hands	join hands
extend arms	extend arms	extend arms
align sights with target	align sights with target	align sights with target
squeeze ~5 lb trigger without disturbing sights	squeeze ~5 lb trigger without disturbing sights	squeeze ~10 lb trigger without disturbing sights
repeat until end of stage	repeat until end of stage	repeat until end of stage
if finished, unload and show clear	if finished, unload and show clear	if finished, unload and show clear
squeeze ~5 lb trigger	squeeze ~5 lb trigger	decock
	activate safety
insert pistol in holster	insert pistol in holster	insert pistol in holster

This is more accurate for the DA/SA with decocker. Nobody uses both safety and decocker, so realistically there is only 1 blank less than a striker fired. Not all DA/SA decocker guns have manual safeties.

 

[walter62]

You're ignoring that most DA/SA are lighter than 10# on DA and WAAAY less on SA (which is 9 out of the 10 rounds)

 

[M1911]

You're not strictly wrong, but there's a hitch with your thinking

This whole discussion, which happens often, reminds me of a post @richc made recently about helping clients find the right solutions for them. The problem is that students (which is what clients often are, but I digress) don't know what they don't know. As a result, they define their needs poorly, without realizing it.

You've said you want the 22 to help build your fundamentals. That's awesome. Short of recoil control, it can do a lot of that. Of course, managing recoil, and the increased noise, seem to be most of what cause flinches. And you've already said you have bad habits from earlier.

There's a ton of stuff you have to train when you learn to shoot: Aiming, Hold Control, Breath Control, Trigger Control, Follow Through, and more. If you can retire unnecessary variables early on, you can elect to add more complexity later. If you start with too many, you're more likely to develop bad habits unless you're incredibly driven.

With a DA/SA pistol, you need to practice two different trigger controls, one of which is quite a bit harder, as well as proper application of safety/decocker. Dry practice with the SA trigger is less complex (no need to reset the trigger) but requires specific attention. Most shooters will practice just the SA side because that leads to greater success earlier.

You have to ask yourself: What specific problem are you looking to solve with this firearm? How will you be using it?

If you want it to teach you every possible skill related to pistol shooting, you're going to have a bad time.

A pistol that's configured for bullseye can be used for IDPA, and vice versa, but neither is ideal. If you're interested in action shooting, pick something that will help you on that path.

Same again, if you want its mechanical characteristics to replace proper safe handling.

The heavy DA trigger pull is only a "safety feature" on a carried pistol. The fundamental safety rules attempt to apply defense in depth. The problem is that when you put a firearm on your hip, you start breaking those rules - it's loaded, and sometimes you're pointing at things you don't intend to shoot. So we put it in a holster that covers the trigger, and add a safety or other feature that prevents the trigger from being pulled at inopportune moments.

The rest of the time, it's a liability. If you don't store the pistol with the hammer down, it's not doing you any good. If you don't dry practice that heavy pull, you'll fight it, throwing the first shot of every run.

If you're planning to compete, you will be required to use all of your firearm's safety features every time you come up to the line. This is in the rules. Here's a rough side-by-side of a stage of fire

Striker (e.g. Glock)	SA (e.g. 1911)	DA/SA (e.g. 92FS)
remove firearm from holster	remove firearm from holster	remove firearm from holster
insert magazine	insert magazine	insert magazine
cycle slide	cycle slide	cycle slide
		decock
	activate safety	activate safety
insert pistol in holster	insert pistol in holster	insert pistol in holster
BEEP	BEEP	BEEP
remove firearm from holster	remove firearm from holster	remove firearm from holster
	deactivate safety	deactivate safety
join hands	join hands	join hands
extend arms	extend arms	extend arms
align sights with target	align sights with target	align sights with target
squeeze ~5 lb trigger without disturbing sights	squeeze ~5 lb trigger without disturbing sights	squeeze ~10 lb trigger without disturbing sights
		squeeze ~5 lb trigger without disturbing sights
repeat until end of stage	repeat until end of stage	repeat until end of stage
if finished, unload and show clear	if finished, unload and show clear	if finished, unload and show clear
squeeze ~5 lb trigger	squeeze ~5 lb trigger
		decock (or squeeze trigger)
	activate safety	activate safety
insert pistol in holster	insert pistol in holster	insert pistol in holster

See all of those blank cells? Each one is an activity that shooter doesn't need to think about. Sure, with practice, it all becomes so natural that you literally don't recall doing most of it. Until then, each action requires intentional effort.

To be clear, the same is true in the MT/AT debate. There's a reason we increasingly start kids on go carts and pit bikes (and bicycles) that don't need to shift. They can worry about all that later, after they've got a bunch of the other stuff under control.

A couple things. First, no need to put the 92FS on safe when holstered. In fact, the best thing to do would be to convert the lever to decock only.

Concerning a “heavy” DA trigger, the DA trigger on my shadow 2 is 6 lbs. it is only heavy when compared to its 2 lb SA trigger.

 

[Mesatchornug]

A couple things. First, no need to put the 92FS on safe when holstered. In fact, the best thing to do would be to convert the lever to decock only.

Concerning a “heavy” DA trigger, the DA trigger on my shadow 2 is 6 lbs. it is only heavy when compared to its 2 lb SA trigger.

fair enough.

 

[M1911]

Admittedly, though, the trigger on my Shadow 2 is a bit light for what I would use for a defensive handgun. Great for a game gun, though.

 

[Mesatchornug]

Admittedly, though, the trigger on my Shadow 2 is a bit light for what I would use for a defensive handgun. Great for a game gun, though.

I totally over-explained, to the level that it injured my point. For example, a 1911 with a 5 lb trigger has issues...

 

[Darksideblues42]

S&W 659 if you want DA/SA

I own two of them, one with fixed rear sights and ambi decocker/safety and one with adjustable but left side (right thumb) decocker/safety

 

[Cuz]

That's good advice.

Another very similar route would be to go buy a Glock 44. It's essentially a G19 sized frame chambered for .22. The grip angle, action and controls are identical on Glocks, (except for the ambi stuff on Gen5 - which really concerns only left-handed shooters).

Yeah, I always forget about my G44, probably because mine only runs reliably with CCI Mini-mags or the Aquila Super Extra ammo. I prefer my .22 to run on the cheapest bulk pack ammo I can find at Walmart, etc. But, the G44 is the right size if you're thinking of going Glock, at least you will be able to use the same holster and mag holders that you will one day compete with when you step up to a 17/34/45, or whatever. It definitely should be on the list for consideration.

 

[Mountain]

Why so serious?

I'm going to be that guy. Please don't take this personally.....

Your emtire post is newb shitlogic, imo just buy whatever you like the most gutfeel wise, you're /going/ to choose poorly anyways so what difference does it make. I'm 110% serious, too.

I know because I was you once. OVERTHINKING. About stupid shit like pweeban mags etc. Instead of buying a few striker guns that felt good in my hands and learned to shoot them well.... which is ultimately where 99% of the cool kids end up because eventually you discover it's the least dumb choice. Old stuff is great if you're a collector but in a practical sense it usually sucks. And I say that as a guy who still wants a PPK 380 /because it looks cool./ But I'll still gladly tell you it sucks in practical sense.

Also this budget constraint stuff? Really? Sadly (and it makes me sad because its an obstacle to people exercising their rights, especially ammo costs) this stuff isn't for poors, if you're that hard up you can't flex up to a grand budget you should probably just get the P95DC, a few boxes of ammo and ponder life choices. That's what I would do if I found myself constraining myself to 600 bucks.

Hey, just because you settled for striker-fired garbage trigger action, OP must also settle? Oh- $600. OP, just get the Canik.

 

[drgrant]

Hey, just because you settled for striker-fired garbage trigger action, OP must also settle? Oh- $600. OP, just get the Canik.

I still have all the far less practical Re0L SteEEL guns you guys like to fap over too, including 4 1911s, a Legion SAO, a 92X, a CZ Shadow SCT...

Basically none of those guns are a great idea for a newb. Absoilutely none of them. Thats something you pick later (maybe)( when you develop more
direction.

 

[Mountain]

I still have all the far less practical Re0L SteEEL guns you guys like to fap over too, including 4 1911s, a Legion SAO, a 92X, a CZ Shadow SCT...

Basically none of those guns are a great idea for a newb. Absoilutely none of them. Thats something you pick later (maybe)( when you develop more
direction.

LOL, totally agree. I'm probably 50/50 steel vs plastic. That TP9SF would exceed OP's needs and meet budget.

 

[DW357]

Now that I'm more settled, I want to get back into it with an eye towards IDPSA and general marksmanship.

Never seen someone combine IDPA and USPSA to create IDPSA . Funny stuff.

Of the guns on your list and knowing your budget, I’d pick the Canik. They have great triggers and are plenty accurate/reliable for the pricepoint.
I’m a big CZ fanboy (own shadow 1s and 2s) but I’m thinking the CZ-75 is more money than the Canik?

 

[Mesatchornug]

Never seen someone combine IDPA and USPSA to create IDPSA . Funny stuff.

Of the guns on your list and knowing your budget, I’d pick the Canik. They have great triggers and are plenty accurate/reliable for the pricepoint.
I’m a big CZ fanboy (own shadow 1s and 2s) but I’m thinking the CZ-75 is more money than the Canik?

Definitely more than the Canik. That said, these are just over budget, here, right now:

WTS - CZ 75 BD Pistol ($650)

This model is a decocker version of the basic CZ 75 B model. The decocking lever mounted on the left side allows the hammer to be easily lowered on a loaded chamber for a safe, ‘hammer down’ carry. • All steel construction • Hammer forged barrels • Ergonomic grip and controls • Unparalleled...

www.northeastshooters.com

WTS - CZ 75 D Compact 9mm pcr

Looking to sell my CZ 75 D. Excellent condition, LNIB. Alloy frame. Includes 2, 10 round mags Hi-Viz sights, Tupperware, ect. Hate to sell it, and love the gun, but need the $$ to fund another purchase. It just sits in the safe and I'm not a collector. Asking a very fair $625.00...

www.northeastshooters.com

 

[Christian]

blued (or is it black now?) or stainless? S&W, Manhurin, Interarms? or Fort Smith?



@Buck F and myself are enamored with the PPK even for all of its faults and generally shitty mchorrible nature. it's just a goddam cool looking gun, dat form factor. JAMES BOND had one! (although his was a 32 I think).

Yo @drgrant Bachants in Lakeville has a ppk.

 

[42!]

Yo @drgrant Bachants in Lakeville has a ppk.

And now I have another German PP on it's way from the auction house. 1968 with original box, manual, cleaning rod, spare mag and factory test target. Almost every Rock Island Auction has a variety of PP and PPK post war. Sometimes the deals are OK others they are great. The www2 ones go for too much.

There is one up for tomorrow but it will go high. German Police marked PPK, you'd have to move fast to get an account set up if you wanted in on it. And remember there is a buyers premium. I'm done with this months auction.

 

[ware]

Cz

 

[MAGA99]

If you’re gonna carry you’ll likely like the polymer better, but this is only your first of many.

I like the CZ 75, and those prices put it in your range.