Help ID'ing this old 16ga SXS

[beergut]

This was my grandfathers- He did a lot of overseas traveling in the navy (seabee's)
Can anyone make out what this engraving says- or what any of the markings on it mean? Serial # is 30101
I'd love to know the manufacturer. I did take it to dealer, left it there for a week for him to study it-
he said he had no idea, but that it may have come from one of the many gun smiths in europe who make guns.
Personally, I feel like it looks more domestically made- but I have really no clue.
He said it appears my grandfather had someone put the rubber on the butt.
The shotgun is in beautiful shape- and I've fired it many times. I have no desire to sell it, figure I'll keep it and hand it down to my kids.
it might just be me, but it sure feels like it kicks a lot more than my 12ga mossberg!
thanks for looking!

 

[gscott]

Make sure you check chamber length before shooting it . I have a old 16 with 2 1/2 chambers .

 

[Dadstoys]

Can't link from the tablet but a google search for gun proof marks may help narrow it down.
I would take a guess and judge by the writing and engraving style it's a european manufacture.

 

[beergut]

sorry- forgot to add- it takes a 2.5" shell...

 

[Sprocket]

search the term "guild gun"

You may have one

The recoil is due to the stock dimensions.

Great piece.

 

[beergut]

search the term "guild gun"

You may have one

The recoil is due to the stock dimensions.

Great piece.

wow- thanks so much for that info! I was up until 2am researching "guild guns"- I never enen heard of such a term- after my research- there's no doubt in my mind that's EXACTLY what I have here. I even found a few 16ga sxs's with the same exact markings! now I just need to find someone to help with explaining the markings. my grandfather left me a great puzzle and a wonderful sxs shotgun! Here's some better pics- it's hard to capture the small detail- the camera flash blinds the lens and without a flash it's too dark. I had my wife hold a light at off-angles so I could get better shots without the flash. Tried to take pic of the bore, but it's mirror smooth.

 

[radioman]

I'm not a shotgun guy but I'd bet you have a valuable piece there!

 

[Sprocket]

There's a magazine called Double Gun Journal - Larry Brown is a writer for them and is on 16GA.com I highly recommend you start there - he may be able to point you in a better direction than just a guild gun.

 

[tuna]

What a beautiful shotgun! And in 16 gauge to boot!

Since it is chambered for the perfect shotgun round, you could try over at the 16 gauge society www.16ga.com and see if anyone there knows anything more about it.

 

[Glockster30]

The markings on the shotgun strongly indicate that it was built in Liege, Belgium in 1925. If it is a true guild gun, then parts (barrels, action) could have been made in other countries and assembled in Liege, Belgium, especially if there is no marks for the manufacturer.

The circle with the crown and the "E" over the "LG" over the "star" (a proof mark) indicates the gun was manufactured after 1893.

The only certainty lies in the presence of the punch of the Bench of Tests of Liege:

ELG on star in an oval: before 1893 - ELG on star in a crowned oval: after 1893.

http://www.littlegun.be/arme belge/2 identification demande fr gb.htm

The "lion over the P.V" is a proof mark for smokeless powder.

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=43594

The cursive lower case "d" is a date code for 1925.

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=43594

 

[Glockster30]

I forgot to add that the numbers, 16-65, inside the omega figure indicates the gauge, 16, and 65 is the chamber length in millimeters (roughly 2.6"). Other marks discussed above also appear again in the link below:

http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_All_Proofmarks.html

 

[mac1911]

It's a French gun...
That's all I know. The proof marks can be helpful.
The big problem with lots of these old shotguns is every cobbler and hatter where making shotguns back then.
Same over in Turkey

Fine looking gun.

 

[beergut]

The markings on the shotgun strongly indicate that it was built in Liege, Belgium in 1925. If it is a true guild gun, then parts (barrels, action) could have been made in other countries and assembled in Liege, Belgium, especially if there is no marks for the manufacturer.

The circle with the crown and the "E" over the "LG" over the "star" (a proof mark) indicates the gun was manufactured after 1893.

The "lion over the P.V" is a proof mark for smokeless powder.

The cursive lower case "d" is a date code for 1925.

wow- thanks so much for that info! I had no idea this was made in 1925!
can you shed any light on why one barrel has 17.0 choke 16.9 and the other barrel only says 16.9?
Any info on the 16-65 located ion the "horseshoe"?

** update- sorry- I didn't see the later posts :/

 

[mac1911]

It's a French gun...
That's all I know. The proof marks can be helpful.
The big problem with lots of these old shotguns is every cobbler and hatter where making shotguns back then.
Same over in Turkey

Fine looking gun.

I have had good luck using Google translator and my phone key board to decifer words.

 

[beergut]

trying to make out the inscription- but not having any luck with google- from what I can tell:

R GAR?iN ABMTRIER BTE LE HAVR.E

 

[tuna]

Le Harve is in France, unsure on the rest.

 

[Sprocket]

can you shed any light on why one barrel has 17.0 choke 16.9 and the other barrel only says 16.9? Any info on the 16-65 located ion the "horseshoe"?

Chokes are sometimes measured in "points" as in points of constriction.
Full = [specific measure in inches]
Mod = [less than full]
Etc.

Mike Orlen is a barrel guy here in MA and may be able to help you further

Document everything, get a kick-but photographer and write the book on ID'ing a guild gun.

 

[Glockster30]

wow- thanks so much for that info! I had no idea this was made in 1925!
can you shed any light on why one barrel has 17.0 choke 16.9 and the other barrel only says 16.9?
Any info on the 16-65 located ion the "horseshoe"?

** update- sorry- I didn't see the later posts :/

17.0 and 16.9 is the diameter and choke constrictions for the barrels in mm. 17 = 0.669", 16.9 = 0.665".

It's a French gun...
That's all I know. The proof marks can be helpful.
The big problem with lots of these old shotguns is every cobbler and hatter where making shotguns back then.
Same over in Turkey Fine looking gun.

The proof marks are definitely Belgium, but as you stated, it could be a French gun as the Belgians made copies of other guns, and Le Harve is in France. As I indicated in my previous post, the parts (barrels and actions) were made in other countries and possibly "cobbled" together by Belgium craftsmen as you stated.

trying to make out the inscription- but not having any luck with google- from what I can tell:

R GAR?iN ABMTRIER BTE LE HAVR.E

R. GARDIN ARMORIER, BTE LE HAVRE

Yes, use 2.5" shells. 2.75 will fit, but the crimps will expand into the barrel and cause excessive pressures.

 

[beergut]

trying to make out the inscription- but not having any luck with google- from what I can tell:
R GAR?iN ABMTRIER BTE LE HAVR.E

R. GARDIN ARMORIER, BTE LE HAVRE

I guess I was way off! I never was any good at wheel of fortune!
I have to assume that this sxs has been redone at some point? For the way it looks- at nearly 100 years old?
I know the last time my grandfather used it, was to hunt deer up at the lake cottage in acton maine with my uncles- about 55 years ago- I know this because we still have the antlers hanging on the wall in the cottage with the date on them and I remember him telling me how he bagged 7 deer in one day with that 16ga- he started laughing while telling me "they just kept coming out of the bush- I just kept shoot'in them!"
This sxs sat in his gun cabinet until I received his collection 6 years ago when he passed - I was the only one in the family in mass with an LTC.
Among other hunting rifles, He also had an old beat up browning double barrel that I sold for $1200- wish I had kept it now.

 

[Rondawg]

Looking at picture 8 the writing is the two "LE Havre" This is a town in France. I can't make out the rest of the writing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Havre.

 

[Sprocket]

RST makes 2.5" shells.

I seriously doubt it as re-blued - the engraving is to sharp.