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Healey co-leads effort urging Supreme Court to allow student punishments for off-campus speech

Mesatchornug

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Let me play devils advocate. Let’s say the star QB is beating kids just outside school property for their lunch money. No one is willing to prosecute. Can the school discipline the QB???
Does the coach have them sign a behavior code before the season? Does it include the behavior you're describing as off limits? They'll bounce you for not making grades, no reason to not do the same for abusing your peers
 

Junior314

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Let me play devils advocate. Let’s say the star QB is beating kids just outside school property for their lunch money. No one is willing to prosecute. Can the school discipline the QB???

Stuff like that has been happening since the beginning of time. Why now suddenly do we need a government solution?

How was it handled 20 years ago?
 

TrashcanDan

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Its a more streamlined way to red flag someone without evidence.

They'll ramp up face tard online patrols to root out anyone considered using hate speech, which by definition today, is anything someone says or does that hurts someone elses feelings.

What it won't be used for is identifying people or groups of people (who actually live stream it even) that break into store fronts and claim reparations in the form of t.v.'s and sneakers.
 

deerdad

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Isn't she also being a cyber bully by threatening dealers about selling legal firearm related items to legal people in our state? I wish she would get schooled by a baseball bat to the head.
 

MaverickNH

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School regulation of schoolchildren is the low bar in social engineering. Schools have responsibilities for students, as though they were parents (in loco parents) and also claim limited parental rights in order to execute their responsibility. "My house, my rules" depends on the community - what goes in San Francisco won’t go in Oklahoma City.

Harley is trying to impose the will of the majority of large liberal cities on cities with conservative values at a Federal level. Not to protect students’ right, but the empower schools, as quasi-governmental representatives, over parents. Bullying is just the popularly-supported legal toehold to control your children outside school. The next step is to criminalize parenting that facilitates undesired behavior and values. The endpoint is parenting as a responsibility granted and controlled by government.

Crazy? Only if Communist China is a fiction rather than the largest counter to freedom and democracy on earth.

EB13D7BD-1083-4695-907B-0DE88039427C.jpeg
 

01906

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I don't know, it's a slippery slope. I do think schools should be able to Target bullying. I don't think they should be able to silent actual speech. The problem is where do you draw the line at what is "disruptive". It has to be more than just a differing opinion. Kids can be cruel. For example. What if there was of 14 year old boy claiming that your daughter serviced him and 4 of his friends. And was posting photoshopped memes targeted at her. I think the school should be able to hold him accountable. I know what I would like to do. But I also don't want to end up in jail. Thankfully my kids are still young and I don't have to worry about this yet.
 

babygorilla

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AAaaaaaand there goes the rest of the Constitution


View attachment 456700

BOSTON – Massachusetts Attorney General Maura Healey and District of Columbia Attorney General Karl Racine today co-led 24 attorneys general in filing a brief urging the U.S. Supreme Court to preserve schools’ ability to address cyberbullying and other forms of off-campus bullying.

The brief was filed today in Mahanoy Area School District v. B.L., a case concerning the ability of schools to hold students accountable for off-campus speech. The brief does not support either party in the case, but urges the Court to reject a Third Circuit ruling preventing schools from taking action to address students’ off-campus speech or expressive conduct even where it has substantial in-school impacts, arguing that such a rule undermines state anti-bullying laws. In Massachusetts, the law, like laws in dozens of other states, requires schools to address disruptive in-person and online bullying even where it originates off-campus, so long as the bullying has substantial in-school impacts. The coalition encourages the Court to uphold an existing legal standard, which empowers schools to regulate speech that substantially disrupts school or interferes with other students’ rights at school.
In my youth I was paid by the bullied to "hang out with them" and take care of the bullies. This proposal would have eliminated a fairly lucrative revenue stream for me.
 

MaverickNH

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“ The attorneys general argue that bullying can create an environment where children are forced to skip school to avoid further abuse while in the classroom or when traveling to and from school on the bus.”

Did bullying decline during COVID? Odd to bring this line of argumentation up as “further abuse” at in-person schooling when teachers have fought so hard to keep schools closed.

“In November, AG Healey issued guidance to school officials across Massachusetts about their legal obligations under the state’s anti-bullying and anti-discrimination laws to prevent and address hate and bias incidents at their educational institutions. The guidance – issued to ensure that students feel safe and protected in school –describes how schools must respond to hate and bias incidents involving students and what proactive steps schools must take to prevent such incidents.”

Progressive adults teach children that speech is violence (or silence is violence) and that they should be protected from the harm of hearing things that make them uncomfortable. They learn that reading any world or US classics is potentiating white supremacy. They learn that math and science are taught to disadvantage minorities who score lower than whites.

Bullying needs constraints, but trusting progressive not to abuse authority is a losing bet.

My son was given a 10-day expulsion his senior year for having denied witnessing a bullying event. The school VP could not reveal who said what due to privacy regulations. A 10-day expulsion was the longest that did not require public school board approval, and challenging the expulsion required public school board action. The intent was to force parents to accept a 10-day expulsion or face a bullying accusation to go on the public record fathering than remaining an undisclosed le private record.

Weeks after he graduated, we received a letter indicating that the persons accusing him of witnessing the bully recanted their accusation that he was present. I called and asked what would be done with those who falsely accused him and was told that as they were minors at the time, the records were private. The inference was they were all 18yr+ in age now, out of school, and the school had no intent nor authority at this point. I asked our attorney about the matter and he said such cases are not rare but even when student are expelled for 1yr+ on false accusations, the local courts find no remedy. That is, you can have your day in court, pay your lawyer, and see little more than a public court records as outcome. Bullying is juicy news but false accusations of bullying doesn’t fit the new sable narrative.
 

one-eyed Jack

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I was a kid of German parents going to grade school during WW2. I was bullied and beat up a lot. I solved the problem by ambushing the head bully and beating him to within an inch of his life with a baseball bat. No one bothered me after that. Only violent thing that I've done in my whole life. But worth it. Jack.
 

Dennis in MA

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Stuff like that has been happening since the beginning of time. Why now suddenly do we need a government solution?

How was it handled 20 years ago?

That's my question. No one prosecutes. You know the kid is beating up kids just off of school grounds. CAN and DO you do anything??? Not "well I'd. . ." type stuff. We all would drop that 200lb QB into a 100lb trash can. But if you kick Jr. off hte squad, does Mom and Dad Coddlington come down and sue to get Jr back on???

My point is: Same here. Is there no already-valid policies that are legal on this?? If no, maybe we need something. Probably not anything Muuuaarahhh would write, but something. Because the loser QB and some chick harassing other chicks online both need to be dropped into very small trash cans.
 

bauer

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Ah the irony:

With cyber bullying, it’s the individual offender who is at fault (the bully), not the platform (Facebook, Twitter, etc.)

With firearms related offenses, it’s unequivocally the fault of the platform (firearm), not the offender.

The never ending cognitive dissonance displayed by the left in regards to applications of personal responsibility never ceases to amaze me.
 

jkelly1229

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Let me play devils advocate. Let’s say the star QB is beating kids just outside school property for their lunch money. No one is willing to prosecute. Can the school discipline the QB???
Like everything else in life.... good intentions pave the path to hell.
 

snax

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The end result of this could be positive.
Kids started dumping Facebook when their parents got on it.
Make this law, maybe they'll start getting off social media altogether. Starve the beasts.
 

Dennis in MA

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Like everything else in life.... good intentions pave the path to hell.

Oh I don't disagree. But is there a mechanism in place to nail the QB's ass to the wall now??? Or is it just "let's hope Johnny's parents don't push back"???

Bullying is a big issue. And if a school finds out that a student is bullying someone, or selling hard drugs, or beating up kids outside of school, they should have an ability to deal with that in-school. . . .

I think. I'm just trying to do the deep diving that Muuuaarrraaahhh won't.
 

AHM

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Let me play devils advocate. Let’s say the star QB is beating kids just outside school property for their lunch money. No one is willing to prosecute. Can the school discipline the QB???
You know the kid is beating up kids just off of school grounds. CAN and DO you do anything???
But is there a mechanism in place to nail the QB's ass to the wall now???
It been long-established that schools have the right to discipline students
under the doctrine of "in loco parentis" (as @MaverickNH alluded).

And the schools can and do discipline students
for actions that take place during travel between home and school.
In Loco Parentis is what empowers bus monitors.

I would totally expect schools to jack up a student for social media
postings made from a friend's house after school
as if they were still on school grounds.

Punishment for violent acts committed on the way to school is a no-brainer.
 

MaverickNH

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I dunno - is bullying worse now, or are kids more sensitive to non-physical attacks?

"I’m gonna kick your ass after school” was about the worst I ever had to deal with. And had my ass kicked and kicked ass too. But we didn’t have virtual self-identities like kids do now - nobody could harass me without face-2-face presence. Honestly, I feel I’m almost deviant about not giving a f’k if someone gets all over me online now, but I’m not a teen raised online.

First we had theories about violent TV desensitizing us to violence - The Three Stooges and all - then they said that didn’t really make us sick little bastards. Then violent video games - still no proof that they made us cold killers. But I suppose, for the youth today, it’s the kids they see at school every day that make virtual reality harassment real if they harass you online. Just because I can’t feel it myself, doesn’t mean others can’t.

But I wonder if they can’t be toughened to not give f’k... but progressive teachers will never make our kids tougher.
 

whatluck

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In my youth I was paid by the bullied to "hang out with them" and take care of the bullies. This proposal would have eliminated a fairly lucrative revenue stream for me.

You just make friends with everyone else who that person bullies, until you have enough to exact revenge. Bullies are often very predictable, want an easy target, so they'll usually fall for the old honeypot.
 
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Let me play devils advocate. Let’s say the star QB is beating kids just outside school property for their lunch money. No one is willing to prosecute. Can the school discipline the QB???
No. If it’s that bad then let the law handle it. If he is convicted of a crime then the school can dismiss him from the team. Due process of law. Everyone is entitled to those protections.
 

AHM

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I have no doubt that she's AGAINST punishing minority students for their on campus behavior.
End the classroom-to-detention pipeline.

Stuff like that has been happening since the beginning of time. Why now suddenly do we need a government solution?
How was it handled 20 years ago?
on the corner
Underscoring why my parents vowed never to buy a house near a school -
they had zero interest in hosting a parade of fistfights on their front lawn.
 

Dennis in MA

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It been long-established that schools have the right to discipline students
under the doctrine of "in loco parentis" (as @MaverickNH alluded).

And the schools can and do discipline students
for actions that take place during travel between home and school.
In Loco Parentis is what empowers bus monitors.

I would totally expect schools to jack up a student for social media
postings made from a friend's house after school
as if they were still on school grounds.

Punishment for violent acts committed on the way to school is a no-brainer.

Thank you, AHM. Ergo, we don't need this law b/c it's already covered under current regulations. It's like double-secret probation. And not a shock being sponsored by Muuuaarrrahhhh!!! Who tilts at windmills for a living.

I dunno - is bullying worse now, or are kids more sensitive to non-physical attacks?

"I’m gonna kick your ass after school” was about the worst I ever had to deal with. And had my ass kicked and kicked ass too. But we didn’t have virtual self-identities like kids do now - nobody could harass me without face-2-face presence. Honestly, I feel I’m almost deviant about not giving a f’k if someone gets all over me online now, but I’m not a teen raised online.

First we had theories about violent TV desensitizing us to violence - The Three Stooges and all - then they said that didn’t really make us sick little bastards. Then violent video games - still no proof that they made us cold killers. But I suppose, for the youth today, it’s the kids they see at school every day that make virtual reality harassment real if they harass you online. Just because I can’t feel it myself, doesn’t mean others can’t.

But I wonder if they can’t be toughened to not give f’k... but progressive teachers will never make our kids tougher.

Ummm, yeah. Look at how seemingly-grown-men act here. Now give you boobs and a vagina and 13yo levels of hormones raging through your body.

Think of it this way: How we act against other drivers (flipping them off, yelling, road rage) is COMPLETELY different from how we act in a crowd. When was the last time you flipped someone off for cutting in front of you on a busy sidewalk. Do you walk-rage???

No. None of that.

Now take that to bullying. (And add them 13yo hormones.) Online bullying is ANONYMOUS. Not "they don't know me" but you've made the target of your abuse a non-person in your own mind. You will say and do things you'd NEVER do in person. Then 50 people just pile on - ONLY TO BE FUNNY. (Ever see that here??? Hmmm???? You're asking children you don't trust to drive, drink, smoke or die for their country to have maturity greater than 90% of NES.). To the recipient it's not funny. It's life-changing.

Is it super-common?? I don't know. I didn't see it with my kids. Can it be super-cruel and crippling?? Oh yeah. Oh F'in yeah.
 

JRLB

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I don't know, it's a slippery slope. I do think schools should be able to Target bullying. I don't think they should be able to silent actual speech. The problem is where do you draw the line at what is "disruptive". It has to be more than just a differing opinion. Kids can be cruel. For example. What if there was of 14 year old boy claiming that your daughter serviced him and 4 of his friends. And was posting photoshopped memes targeted at her. I think the school should be able to hold him accountable. I know what I would like to do. But I also don't want to end up in jail. Thankfully my kids are still young and I don't have to worry about this yet.
The school shouldn’t hold him accountable, the law should. This would be harassment, no?
 

AHM

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Thank you, AHM. Ergo, we don't need this law b/c it's already covered under current regulations. It's like double-secret probation. And not a shock being sponsored by Muuuaarrrahhhh!!! Who tilts at windmills for a living.
(As far as student speech goes - as opposed to bullying -
you should see Eugene Volokh of UCLA Law School gird his loins
and file an amicus brief in lawsuits. (Well; maybe you have).

The SCOTUS trend over recent decades is generally
to restrict school micromanagement of students, especially at home.

Which would include having a baby brother walk past a laptop webcam
with a cap gun, or whatever. And whenever another suit hits the courts,
Volokh is sure to both lay out the history, and dissect the school's argument
like a frog on a bed of wax).

ETA: It's a little tough to find relevant discussion of In Loco Parentis
for public school students, because it turns out that up until scant decades ago,
colleges used it to throw their weight around to micromanage undergraduates.

That's been slapped down, but students are still so butthurt that
they flood the web with articles about it which completely overshadow
stories about things like fist-fights on the way home from school.
I mean up to and including masters theses reviewing the topic regarding colleges.

Only the magic phrase "school bus" has the awesome power
to unlock vaguely relevant stories; since college students don't use school buses.
 

01906

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The school shouldn’t hold him accountable, the law should. This would be harassment, no?
I don't know IANAL, but if you're getting the courts involved. If it happens their sophomore year it should be resolved by their freshman year of college.
 

MGnoob

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I don't know IANAL, but if you're getting the courts involved. If it happens their sophomore year it should be resolved by their freshman year of college.


You hit the nail on the head there
 
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