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Handguns stuck in CA, can anyone help?

The only way I see this as being legal is if the owner ships the firearms (or frames) to a MA FFL and they get transferred to the OP. Whether that's through a CA FFL or direct mailing, that would be determined by CA law and/or the receiving FFL. OP can fly out and assist grandma with the effort if she couldn't be bothered.

Good luck!

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Cabinetman said:
Why can't Grandma just call (or the new owner call) an FFL in CA and have him/her go to the house, sign a receipt listing the hardware, then they would ship them to the new owner's FFL in MA and the paperwork would be done and above board. It doesn't have to be complicated, does it? Notice that I'm not suggesting Grandma TAKE the hardware to the FFL as that would expose her to legal issues. An FFL, however, could just visit her home and take responsibility for the handguns and ship 'em for a fee. She would retain the list describing them along with serial numbers and, hell, use a cell phone to take photos, too. Easy as pie and above board.

Rome
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The only potential PITA is the EOPS/AG list in MA might prevent the transfer to the OP if they're sent as full firearms.
 
Len-2A Training said:
Which day will that be? [smile]

Seriously, that's why I spend considerable time in my seminar on the inheritance topic. Hopefully my students understand it when I'm done.
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Have to visit your site for schedule. Never enough time with a 2yo.
CRSIII said:
This entire thread is hypothetical, right?
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It is a friend of his I believe.
 
Here is my suggestion to you.

1) Have grandma or better yet the executor of the will, if there is one, remove the slides from the frames of the semi-autos.
1.5) Locate a MA dealer who will accept a shipment from a non-dealer. Its perfectly legal, but some don't want to do it. If you can't find one, PM me and I'll give you a name.
1.6) Line up a friend who has a CA license to possess firearms (is there one?) to go with her to the UPS store.
2) Have grandma and the friend ship them all in one box to a MA dealer. She does not have to go through a CA dealer to ship. If anyone tells you differently, they are WRONG. She can simply walk into a UPS customer center and ship them. (Not a UPS store. It has to be a UPS owned and staffed facility.)
3) When they arrive at the MA dealer, transfer them to you via normal methods. The handgun frames should be treated like a firearm per federal law (4473 and a NICS check), but not like a firearm per MA law. (They should not have to be FA10'd, but many ignorant dealers will insist on this)
4) Have grandma ship all the slides directly to you. These are not firearms by any measure of any law, so its perfectly legal.
5) Assemble the slides to the frames
6) FA10 the frames as firearms if the dealer didn't (incorrectly) insist on FA10ing them himself.

Done.

If you are Metro West, Precision Point will do the transfers for $20 per gun. You can't beat that.

p.s. There are many exceptions to these requirements in the case of interstate bequest. In other words if your grandfather had actually willed them to you they might be able to be shipped directly to you. (don't hold me to that) But from a legal perspective, when he died, they became your living grandmothers property. So its not an estate transfer or bequest.

Again, to everyone citing inheritance laws, this is not inheritance. This is a living grandma giving guns to her grandson in another state.

p.p.s. Removing the slides from the frames serves 2 purposes. 1) it allows a MA dealer to legally transfer them to you. 2) it greatly reduces shipping costs. The frames will need to be shipped 2nd day at least to MA. This is not cheap. Anything you can do to reduce weight is good. The slides can probably all fit in a $5.60 USPS flat rate box. Throw $1500 of insurance on the box and you are still probably under $15.
 
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Is it really worth all the hassle, and potential criminality? Have grandma call an FFL to come get them, in order to consign or sell them. I'd hate to lose the .45, but maybe she could use the money?

If some are not CA legal, an FFL can sell them out of state. Inheritance laws are moot here. You did not inherit them.
 
If you fly to CA can you establish ownership by doing the FA-10 online from there? They aren't being purchased, they are a family transfer or inheritance. That should then allow you to legally receive your own guns in MA if you ship them to yourself.
 
swampy said:
If you fly to CA can you establish ownership by doing the FA-10 online from there? They aren't being purchased, they are a family transfer or inheritance. That should then allow you to legally receive your own guns in MA if you ship them to yourself.
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Federal Law requires transfers of pistols to be completed in the home state of residence for the receiver. If it was inheritance, it would be different.

https://www.atf.gov/content/firearm...ons-unlicensed-persons#gca-unlicensed-acquire
 
Federal laws aren't really the problem. The OP said he was also a resident of CA. Remember, federal law is VERY easy as far as having dual residence for the purpose of buying or transferring a firearm. Right in the instructions for the 4473 it lays it out in black an white.

The bigger issue is CA law. Which I know nothing about.

Like I said above. Ship them to MA. There is no criminality if they are brought to the UPS Customer service center by someone who can legally transport them. I don't know enough about CA law to tell you if Grandma can do that legally. Which I why i suggested someone who can legally possess those firearms go with her.

Once its given to UPS, all that matter is how to get them legally from the MA FFL. Which I also detailed.

Don
 
Fly out there, visit granny, task possession of the guns. Then ship them to yourself back in MA.
You fly home and the next day your package arrives. Done deal.

Dan Long
Boston
 
dcmdon said:
Here is my suggestion to you.


1.6) Line up a friend who has a CA license to possess firearms (is there one?) to go with her to the UPS store.


Again, to everyone citing inheritance laws, this is not inheritance. This is a living grandma giving guns to her grandson in another state.
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CA law does not require a government issued "license" possess firearms. It DOES require that a resident have a Handgun Safety Certificate (HSC) to possess a handgun.

http://oag.ca.gov/firearms/hscinfo

My reference to the CA firearms inheritance laws pertains to the OP's grandmother. Do you know if she has a HSC?
 
1) I would NOT ask Grandma to touch the handguns. For all she knows they're freakin loaded. We all assume that when we see or handle another handgun that's out of our possession. So, having her simply ship to MA is problematic at best. I would certainly not ask her to figure out how to take the slides off. Oh my!

2) I still say incorporate the use of a CA FFL to pickup and ship. For the little he will charge it will be money well spend as opposed to flying there (all day adventure) and flying home (another all day adventure) not to mention it will be a LOT cheaper. The CA FFL will know all the right words and won't go to a UPS "store" which would be very bad indeed. One the FFL has them, they're protected and will arrive in MA, unloaded and properly packed.

You might even go over to the CA Hometown forum on AR15 and request a FFL from her town contact you directly.

Rome

Rome
 
dcmdon said:
Federal laws aren't really the problem. The OP said he was also a resident of CA. Remember, federal law is VERY easy as far as having dual residence for the purpose of buying or transferring a firearm. Right in the instructions for the 4473 it lays it out in black an white.

The bigger issue is CA law. Which I know nothing about.

Like I said above. Ship them to MA. There is no criminality if they are brought to the UPS Customer service center by someone who can legally transport them. I don't know enough about CA law to tell you if Grandma can do that legally. Which I why i suggested someone who can legally possess those firearms go with her.

Once its given to UPS, all that matter is how to get them legally from the MA FFL. Which I also detailed.

Don
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Well hell, if he's a CA resident, that makes it VERY easy. Go get them. Bring them home. Done. If you need a 'safety certificate' or whatever, see if you can get one online.

If it was northern CA (Baja Oregon, not Bay Area), I'd be able to help OP out with finding storage for them in the area until he could make arrangements.
 
CaptDan3 said:
Fly out there, visit granny, task possession of the guns. Then ship them to yourself back in MA.
You fly home and the next day your package arrives. Done deal.

Dan Long
Boston
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I'm not sure he can legally take possession of them in CA. If he can, that works provided he wants to go to CA.

To anyone who doesn't understand Dan's most important point, you CAN ship guns to yourself in another state. No FFL required. Don't let anyone tell you different. You would just need to FA10 them when received.

From the following ATF Document: http://www.atf.gov/files/firearms/industry/0501-firearms-top-10-qas.pdf


6. May I lawfully ship a firearm to myself in a different State?
Any person may ship a firearm to himself or herself in the care of another person in the State where
he or she intends to hunt or engage in any other lawful activity. The package should be addressed to
the owner “in the care of” the out-of-State resident. Upon reaching its destination, persons other than
the owner must not open the package or take possession of the firearm.
 
joshk1025 said:
To comply with CA law, see answer 5 on this FAQ page. http://oag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs#1
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Question 5 does not address the transfer between a grandparent and a grandchild. Of course a way around that would be to do it in 2 steps. Granparent to parent to child.

It also says that the recipient must possess a "handgun safety certificate" to receive handguns. Its probably not a big deal, but its still something that should be done.

Which leads me back to what I've said all along. have somene with a safety certificate accompany grandma to UPS and ship them to a MA FFL. Simple, Fast, Cheap, and Legal.
 
dcmdon said:
Question 5 does not address the transfer between a grandparent and a grandchild. Of course a way around that would be to do it in 2 steps. Granparent to parent to child.

It also says that the recipient must possess a "handgun safety certificate" to receive handguns. Its probably not a big deal, but its still something that should be done.

Which leads me back to what I've said all along. have somene with a safety certificate accompany grandma to UPS and ship them to a MA FFL. Simple, Fast, Cheap, and Legal.
Click to expand...
Re-read the answer. Parent to child and grandparent to grandchild are explicitly allowed. The recipient needs a handgun safety certificate and needs to register the transaction with the ca doj.
 
joshk1025 said:
Re-read the answer. Parent to child and grandparent to grandchild are explicitly allowed. The recipient needs a handgun safety certificate and needs to register the transaction with the ca doj.
Click to expand...

The "Intrafamily Transfer" provision of California firearms law only applies if the person receiving the firearm is a CALIFORNIA RESIDENT. I assume Bosstone resides in MA or another New England state. As such, transfer of the firearms would be an INTERSTATE TRANSFER and Federal law would apply, the firearms would have to be transferred thru an FFL in Bosstone's state of residence
 
The OP said he was also a resident of CA. This is not a stretch. You can be a resident of all 50 states.

Having residency is not the same as being domiciled in a state. If you are domiciled in MA but have weekend place in NH, you are legitimately a resident of NH when you are there. You don't even need to own the property. If you have a bedroom at a friends house on a lake in NH that you go to regularly, you keep clothes there and you legitimately "make a home" there, then you are still aresident when you are there.

People seem to confuse the concept of residency with being domiciled. You can only be domiciled in one state. You could be a resident of as many states as you have a place where you make a home.
 
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dcmdon said:
The OP said he was also a resident of CA. This is not a stretch. You can be a resident of all 50 states.

Having residency is not the same as being domiciled in a state. If you are domiciled in MA but have weekend place in NH, you are legitimately a resident of NH when you are there. You don't even need to own the property. If you have a bedroom at a friends house on a lake in NH that you go to regularly, you keep clothes there and you legitimately "make a home" there, then you are still aresident when you are there.

People seem to confuse the concept of residency with being domiciled. You can only be domiciled in one state. You could be a resident of as many states as you have a place where you make a home.
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I do not see where the OP stated he was also a resident of CA (posts #1 and #4). For the purposes of firearms law I am a resident of CA and MA, and have purchased/transferred firearms in both states. Under CA firearms law, to be considered a CA resident a person MUST have a CA D/L or CA I.D.
 
Joemoia,

CA does not require a DL anymore. I am sure that you are familiar with Peruta v San Diego. One of the first reasons they gave for justifying the denial was that he was not a resident. Ed lives in CT most of the year, but takes his motor home out to CA for the winter. Ed has a room at a relatives house where he spends most of his time. Despite this, CA first denied his LTC, claiming that he was not a resident. (He holds a CT drivers license.)

Ed made the point that this was a place where he returned to regularly, he has clothes he keeps there permanently, and he legitimately makes a home there. CA actually dropped their opposition to his application based on residency.

I've had the opportunity to discuss this several times with Ed and every time he hammers the same point, there is a difference between being a resident of a state and being domiciled in a state.

Don
 
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dcmdon said:
Joemoia,

CA does not require a DL anymore. I am sure that you are familiar with Peruta v San Diego. One of the first reasons they gave for justifying the denial was that he was not a resident. Ed lives in CT most of the year, but takes his motor home out to CA for the winter. Ed has a room at a relatives house where he spends most of his time. Despite this, CA first denied his LTC, claiming that he was not a resident. (He holds a CT drivers license.)

Thanks for the info. I am familiar with Peruta

Ed made the point that this was a place where he returned to regularly, he has clothes he keeps there permanently, and he legitimately makes a home there. CA actually dropped their opposition to his application based on residency.

I've had the opportunity to discuss this several times with Ed and every time he hammers the same point, there is a difference between being a resident of a state and being domiciled in a state.

Don
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Don,

AFAIK Peruta v San Diego involves being issued a CA concealed carry permit. In CA you don't need a permit/license to purchase/possess a handgun. You DO need a permit issued by the police or county sheriff to carry concealed. I don't know all the details of the case, and I may be wrong, but I believe it involves Peruta's right to obtain a CCW permit for handguns he already owned and brought into the state. Do you know if Mr. Peruta ever tried to purchase a handgun in CA? The CA DROS (Dealer Record of Sale) system requires CA D/L or ID number.

I do understand your point about residency. I possess a CA D/L and a MA Resident LTC. My MA Issuing Authority accepted my proof of MA residency without having a MA D/L. It is my understanding is that not all MA PDs will honor this.

Joe M
 
joemoia said:
I do understand your point about residency. I possess a CA D/L and a MA Resident LTC. My MA Issuing Authority accepted my proof of MA residency without having a MA D/L. It is my understanding is that not all MA PDs will honor this.

Joe M
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In MA EACH chief/LO gets to decide who is a resident (in his mind) or not! So some towns will issue to dual residents while others will tell you to piss up a rope! Not much you can do when you get the latter type LO/chief!
 
Len-2A Training said:
In MA EACH chief/LO gets to decide who is a resident (in his mind) or not! So some towns will issue to dual residents while others will tell you to piss up a rope! Not much you can do when you get the latter type LO/chief!
Click to expand...

Len

I think it helped that the Sergeant who issues LTCs in my MA town went to high school with my sister and knows the family, plus my name was already in the MA system as I had been issued a MA FID when FIDs were first introduced way back when (although I don't remember getting one). During the interview I did bring up the burden of getting a new D/L every time I traveled between CA and MA if he required that I have a MA D/L to issue a MA resident LTC and he seemed to be sympathetic to that issue.

Joe M
 
I am not a CA resident. I'm not sure where that came from. I am a MA resident. Grandma has dual residency as she owns a house in both places. I agree there's no way she's even going to touch the guns. I'm opposed to flying out there as she'd be happy to see me anyway, so if the cost between flying out and shipping them myself is not much more than having an FFL go to the house then I'd rather do that. Not sure I would trust some random FFL to go there, especially when I'm not even sure what is out there.

I'm also a civilian employee of a police dept. Would it help if I can ship them here to the station care of the Chief of Police?

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correction: I'm not opposed
 
Bosstone said:
I am not a CA resident. I'm not sure where that came from. I am a MA resident. Grandma has dual residency as she owns a house in both places. I agree there's no way she's even going to touch the guns. I'm opposed to flying out there as she'd be happy to see me anyway, so if the cost between flying out and shipping them myself is not much more than having an FFL go to the house then I'd rather do that. Not sure I would trust some random FFL to go there, especially when I'm not even sure what is out there.

I'm also a civilian employee of a police dept. Would it help if I can ship them here to the station care of the Chief of Police?

That looks to be one way of opening up a shit show.
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