hand to hand fighting

[newenglandjeff]

There are plenty in MMA or real combative sports yes.. the difference they don't last long. Their students fight/compete and they get trounced.. the gym closes shortly after cause everyone going there realizes they can't break an egg.

In TMAs they don't do anything but dance and talk so these guys turn out 400 black belts, end up in Martial Arts magazine and guys like you are name dropping them like they can actually fight.

Dude, you asked for where and how TMA's prove their worth, specifically internal martial arts. I brought up Lei Tai. You shut down our discourse by saying Lei Tai doesn't count. As a prerequisite to engage in reasoned discourse with you, one must accept that MMA is the be all end all system of self defense. So, remind me again, which one of us is in a cult?

 

[MMArtist]

It can, but she's going to need more than jab-cross, Thai round kicks, double-leg takedowns, the guard and breaking it, ...

If you think a 110lb unarmed female can beat several male attackers I'm good with answering any of your posts. Thanks you've been a good laugh.

 

[SpaceCritter]

If you think a 110lb unarmed female can beat several male attackers I'm good with answering any of your posts. Thanks you've been a good laugh.

Well, then the best I can offer is, may you not have a run-in with a well-trained 110 pound woman.

 

[MMArtist]

Dude, you asked for where and how TMA's prove their worth, specifically internal martial arts. I brought up Lei Tai. You shut down our discourse by saying Lei Tai doesn't count. As a prerequisite to engage in reasoned discourse with you, one must accept that MMA is the be all end all system of self defense. So, remind me again, which one of us is in a cult?

Lei Tai is a obscure competition that no one competes in. I mean really... how many people really compete in Lei Tei. Is it a competition done all over the world? Is it an Olympic Event? How many competitors yearly?

From what I watched of it today.. its a bunch of fake martial artist pillowfisting eachother. Maybe one or two journeyman real fighters might step in I don't know. I've never even heard of it. I mean at least they are testing themselves but I wouldn't go hang my hat on a Lei Tai win like I can fight.

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Well, then the best I can offer is, may you not have a run-in with a well-trained 110 pound woman.

Now I know your trolling.

 

[str8shooter]

The only way for someone such as yourself to be convinced would be to attend a training seminar with someone such as Bok Nam Park (a very skilled Bagua master) and ask to spar with him. I've seen many fighters more skilled than I try.

I wasn't going to get into this thread but Bok Nam Park was my friend's teacher for a short while. He's the real deal. Likes to fight... for real. He's got that "hokus pokus" chi stuff going. My friend found out getting hit to his chest. Finding people like this is RARE. Most martial artists do not know what the real chi is and are no where near the level of Bok Nam Park.

I know of one other guy who would be Bok Nam Park's equal. When he "lets" the chi out people are moving back out of the way. No joke. But it's extremely rare when he gives a display of his real power. He too is the real deal. He used to get into fights in Boston every week because of where he worked. After a while, he got a reputation and "tough guys" were seeking him out trying to build their own reputations. He "won" every fight except the ones with his wife after she found out about them...

I know this thread has gotten off topic but chi is real. You just have to find someone who has it at a level that is lethal (and controllable) if you want to experience it at all. Very few people are at that level and you need to seek them out. There's a lot of charlatans in TMA who claim to have it. They don't... and they give TMA a bad name.

With emphasis, not looking to be a competitor or the take on all challengers type in public, but would like to know what a good training philosophy would be ideal as a supplement to armed self defense.

As for the original question, I think that the OP needs to find a good program that will teach some tough basics of fighting. Ground training should be part of it... but beware going to the ground with multiple attackers. To me, the normal traditional martial arts would not be a good avenue... and I'm a traditional martial arts person. I'd probably look to get into MMA if there was a class tailored more for self defense than competition. MMA is tough, no question. Krav Maga would also be on my short list. Best thing is to get into a class that would teach a few good well-rounded basics of "self defense" then practice the hell out of the techniques you are taught. Focus on a few things that seem to resonate with you. Make them "your own" so you are proficient with several really good techniques rather than trying to "know" 100 different ones.

 

[peterthefish]

I wasn't going to get into this thread but Bok Nam Park was my friend's teacher for a short while. He's the real deal. Likes to fight... for real. He's got that "hokus pokus" chi stuff going. My friend found out getting hit to his chest. Finding people like this is RARE. Most martial artists do not know what the real chi is and are no where near the level of Bok Nam Park.

I know of one other guy who would be Bok Nam Park's equal. When he "lets" the chi out people are moving back out of the way. No joke. But it's extremely rare when he gives a display of his real power. He too is the real deal. He used to get into fights in Boston every week because of where he worked. After a while, he got a reputation and "tough guys" were seeking him out trying to build their own reputations. He "won" every fight except the ones with his wife after she found out about them...

I know this thread has gotten off topic but chi is real. You just have to find someone who has it at a level that is lethal (and controllable) if you want to experience it at all. Very few people are at that level and you need to seek them out. There's a lot of charlatans in TMA who claim to have it. They don't... and they give TMA a bad name.

Lol. I bet they're real masters of Bullshido. Fireballs and all that shit.

 

[Terminator03]

Lol. I bet they're real masters of Bullshido. Fireballs and all that shit.

Oh boy, another tough guy know it all. At least MMArtist can back his claims up and can fight. Can you? As far as what you quoted, I had the same experience with master Park as this guys friend, so having experienced it first hand myself I can say unequivocally that it's not bullshit. I do agree that most "masters" here in the U.S. Are wannabes though.

 

[Cabin Fever]

Also, careful who you train with. Years later I met a guy who said he was training in krav maga but it didn't sound right. Turns out it was some martial arts guy who failed as a krav maga instructor making up his own thing.

That's the problem with Krav Maga. There are all sorts of variations. A good school can teach some great skills to someone who only has a few hours a week to train. But some of the "Krav Maga" videos on YouTube show that there is a lot of bs out there.

 

[HKdrummer]

I think the bottom line is, what do you as the student hope to gain out of whatever it is you train in? Do you want to enter the octagon and go 5 rounds or do you want to be able to get out of a bad situation, or do you just want to do something that interests you and gets you into shape? Once you answer that question the path should be much clearer as to which direction you will and should go. The beauty of martial arts is they are all effective at something, it is merely what that something is and whether or not it benefits you in your goals.

 

[AngelKing]

Wow. Im away from NES for the weekend and I get a 13 page reply, for one, thanks guys and curses, as I have a lot more to think about.

But that said, a lot of information is way better than none. I thought a lot about the goals aspect of this and for me, its going to be to have enough knowledge to get myself out of a bad situation - namely being put to the ground and having to fight my way up. On my feet, I'm fine and know I can handle myself, which is why traditional boxing probably isn't what I'd want....but true fighting techniques that will effectively stop an attack and or render an attacker (s) too damaged to continue would be the thinking.

So far, I have it narrowed to BJJ, Systema (but there's like one in the area) and maybe Krav.

I think the bottom line is, what do you as the student hope to gain out of whatever it is you train in? Do you want to enter the octagon and go 5 rounds or do you want to be able to get out of a bad situation, or do you just want to do something that interests you and gets you into shape? Once you answer that question the path should be much clearer as to which direction you will and should go. The beauty of martial arts is they are all effective at something, it is merely what that something is and whether or not it benefits you in your goals.

 

[newenglandjeff]

I also met Park Bok Nam I think back in 2000. I wouldn't say he could shoot lighting bolts out of his finger tips, but he had juice. The more interesting thing about him is his teacher Lu Shui Tian. This guy was a Guerrilla fighter during the Japanese occupation of China. That was a time when swords and rifles were frequently on the same battlefield. So yeah, if you want to talk about a MARTIAL art, than you are remiss to discount systems like Bagua and Xinyiquan.

 

[Terminator03]

I also met Park Bok Nam I think back in 2000. I wouldn't say he could shoot lighting bolts out of his finger tips, but he had juice. The more interesting thing about him is his teacher Lu Shui Tian. This guy was a Guerrilla fighter during the Japanese occupation of China. That was a time when swords and rifles were frequently on the same battlefield. So yeah, if you want to talk about a MARTIAL art, than you are remiss to discount systems like Bagua and Xinyiquan.

Yep, no lightning bolts, but all he has to do is lay a palm on your chest to know he is not a charlatan. He evaded some seriously fast and powerful punches and kicks that I threw at him and just lightly tapped me on the chest with an open palm. I thought I was going to die - literally. I've sparred both full and light contact with many practitioners of various disciplines over the years, but have never felt that level of power from anyone else...ever! He is only about 5' 2" and maybe 130lbs., for reference I was 5' 11" 175lbs. when I sparred with him. It's funny because I was of an opinion similar to MMArtist when it came to fighting before meeting him. I had always trained in and loved traditional martial arts, but knew of the inherent problems in actual combat against street fighters. The main problem lies with the amount of time and dedication necessary to actually master any of these disciplines well enough to apply in a combat situation, not in their lack of effectiveness. I've watched many fighters who fight in the MMA style and can honestly say I'd wager they couldn't lay a hand on someone such as Park before he could humiliate them, or put them out of commission completely in a serious situation. For those that scoff and make fun, it's only out of pure ignorance of never having experienced the real deal.

 

[str8shooter]

... The more interesting thing about him is his teacher Lu Shui Tian. This guy was a Guerrilla fighter during the Japanese occupation of China...

As I understand it, Lu Shui Tian regularly killed Japanese soldiers with his favorite weapon, a small knife, during the Japanese occupation in China. Another real life master who probably didn't win many competitions... Most memorable story is Lu Shui Tian teaching Bok Nam Park a lesson by sticking a spear through his arm and pinning it to the floor...

As for the OP in this thread, find what you feel comfortable with in terms of learning. Everyone is different. Then put the time in to make it work for you. Chances are that in a real life situation, as perfect as you've practiced, you may not be able to execute what you learned at 100%. However, the closer you get to executing at 100%, the better your chances are of survival.

 

[MMArtist]

This is one of my favorite videos. It is old and I am sure everyone has seen it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncfSWTPE0E4

This guy was world renowned and revered as a Kiai Master, whatever that is. He had thousands of followers all who believed he had some kind of mystical power. You can see all his students falling all over themselves, it is f'in amazing to think of the psychology of this. He was on the cover of Black Belt magazine 2x.

Then he screwed up and actually fought someone. The guy he fought was some scrubby low level amateur MMA competitor. He got clowned... quickly. Now their are tons of other examples. Just youtube fake martial artist exposed, or Royce Gracie or Gracie challenge matches, or the Documentary Choke I mean all this wu shu, chi, inner power bs has been debunked 30 years ago.

So when all you guys are talking about internal masters, and chi and some guy touching your chest and knocking you down... I'm sure you believe it. But you have to realize that Master is a deluded con man in pajamas and you are weak minded and gullible.

You could grab any D1 Wrestler from any college in the country. He would blast double that "Master" and smear him all over the floor.

 

[Nation On Fire]

^^^ I heard the guy in the video was bribed by the "master" to lose the fight. He agreed, took the money, and proceeded to kick his ass. Don't know if it's true, but I like the story.

 

[jibbr71]

This is one of my favorite videos. It is old and I am sure everyone has seen it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncfSWTPE0E4

This guy was world renowned and revered as a Kiai Master, whatever that is. He had thousands of followers all who believed he had some kind of mystical power. You can see all his students falling all over themselves, it is f'in amazing to think of the psychology of this. He was on the cover of Black Belt magazine 2x.

Then he screwed up and actually fought someone. The guy he fought was some scrubby low level amateur MMA competitor. He got clowned... quickly. Now their are tons of other examples. Just youtube fake martial artist exposed, or Royce Gracie or Gracie challenge matches, or the Documentary Choke I mean all this wu shu, chi, inner power bs has been debunked 30 years ago.

So when all you guys are talking about internal masters, and chi and some guy touching your chest and knocking you down... I'm sure you believe it. But you have to realize that Master is a deluded con man in pajamas and you are weak minded and gullible.

You could grab any D1 Wrestler from any college in the country. He would blast double that "Master" and smear him all over the floor.

Ok, so I'm getting educated. In the parts of that video where the dude's not getting his ass kicked, do people really buy what's happening there? Do they also wait for Santa on Christmas Eve and think that the Red Sox have a shot this year?

 

[Terminator03]

This is one of my favorite videos. It is old and I am sure everyone has seen it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncfSWTPE0E4

This guy was world renowned and revered as a Kiai Master, whatever that is. He had thousands of followers all who believed he had some kind of mystical power. You can see all his students falling all over themselves, it is f'in amazing to think of the psychology of this. He was on the cover of Black Belt magazine 2x.

Then he screwed up and actually fought someone. The guy he fought was some scrubby low level amateur MMA competitor. He got clowned... quickly. Now their are tons of other examples. Just youtube fake martial artist exposed, or Royce Gracie or Gracie challenge matches, or the Documentary Choke I mean all this wu shu, chi, inner power bs has been debunked 30 years ago.

So when all you guys are talking about internal masters, and chi and some guy touching your chest and knocking you down... I'm sure you believe it. But you have to realize that Master is a deluded con man in pajamas and you are weak minded and gullible.

You could grab any D1 Wrestler from any college in the country. He would blast double that "Master" and smear him all over the floor.

You are correct in "most" cases here in the U.S. Because the name of the game is making money. I know because I've personally trained with many such so called masters in my lifetime. I don't expect you to believe me about the skills of Bok Nam Park, but if you ever have the opportunity to attend one of his workshops, do yourself a favor and test it for yourself. If it's all bullshit, you can quickly expose him and then post it online to debunk another so called master. He used to do monthly workshops at a martial arts school right in Watertown, so you wouldn't even have to travel to NJ where he's based. He's pretty old now though, so I'm not sure if he still does workshops up here anymore. He will let you attack him full power and speed (at least he did back when I was used as a test subject). I had the same level of confidence that you display, which is probably why I was chosen for his demo. Like I said, he doesn't have to punch you to hurt you very badly. I'm not gullible and have met many charlatans over the years, but this is an example of the real deal. One thing is for sure though, you won't be able to do what you do at 70 like these guys can, I can guarantee that!

 

[peterthefish]

Ok, so I'm getting educated. In the parts of that video where the dude's not getting his ass kicked, do people really buy what's happening there? Do they also wait for Santa on Christmas Eve and think that the Red Sox have a shot this year?

Little column A, little column B. If you were new to that guys school and you see him Darth Vadering the shit out of everyone else there, including people you respect, do you kick his ass? Or fall in line, perhaps convincing yourself he's got "chi". Eventually, even the emperor thinks he's wearing clothes...

 

[peterthefish]

You are correct in "most" cases here in the U.S. Because the name of the game is making money. I know because I've personally trained with many such so called masters in my lifetime. I don't expect you to believe me about the skills of Bok Nam Park, but if you ever have the opportunity to attend one of his workshops, do yourself a favor and test it for yourself. If it's all bullshit, you can quickly expose him and then post it online to debunk another so called master. He used to do monthly workshops at a martial arts school right in Watertown, so you wouldn't even have to travel to NJ where he's based. He's pretty old now though, so I'm not sure if he still does workshops up here anymore. He will let you attack him full power and speed (at least he did back when I was used as a test subject). I had the same level of confidence that you display, which is probably why I was chosen for his demo. Like I said, he doesn't have to punch you to hurt you very badly. I'm not gullible and have met many charlatans over the years, but this is an example of the real deal. One thing is for sure though, you won't be able to do what you do at 70 like these guys can, I can guarantee that!

Tldr - I've been duped by many such 'masters', but so and so is legit. You can rely on my opinion here, because I was fooled over and over so I know the real thing when I see it.

 

[Terminator03]

Tldr - I've been duped by many such 'masters', but so and so is legit. You can rely on my opinion here, because I was fooled over and over so I know the real thing when I see it.

Obvious troll is obvious... When/where did I say I was duped? Just because I don't take other people's word on stuff and decide to educate myself doesn't mean I got duped. I could be ignorant like you obviously are and just believe (or not believe) based on what people say on the web. how pray tell would I know a charletan from the real deal if I didn't experience them all? Since you seem to have all these opinions, surely you must be an experienced fighter - right?

 

[peterthefish]

Obvious troll is obvious... When/where did I say I was duped? Just because I don't take other people's word on stuff and decide to educate myself doesn't mean I got duped. I could be ignorant like you obviously are and just believe (or not believe) based on what people say on the web. how pray tell would I know a charletan from the real deal if I didn't experience them all? Since you seem to have all these opinions, surely you must be an experienced fighter - right?

Logical fallacy is fallacious. I don't need to see every magician in the world to come to the conclusion that none of them have supernatural powers. At some point critical thinking kicks in, for most of us anyway.

The physics / physiology of the 1" punch is laughable. That you attended "many" magic shows and came away with the belief that one guy can really saw women in half says more about you than anything else.

When you make an incredible claim, it's up to you to support it, and unfortunately the plural of anecdote is anecdotes, not data.

I'm not sure what being an experienced fighter has to do with logical thinking, other than the fact that a lack of repeated blows to the head ensures I can think straight.

 

[MMArtist]

You are correct in "most" cases here in the U.S. Because the name of the game is making money. I know because I've personally trained with many such so called masters in my lifetime. I don't expect you to believe me about the skills of Bok Nam Park, but if you ever have the opportunity to attend one of his workshops, do yourself a favor and test it for yourself. If it's all bullshit, you can quickly expose him and then post it online to debunk another so called master. He used to do monthly workshops at a martial arts school right in Watertown, so you wouldn't even have to travel to NJ where he's based. He's pretty old now though, so I'm not sure if he still does workshops up here anymore. He will let you attack him full power and speed (at least he did back when I was used as a test subject). I had the same level of confidence that you display, which is probably why I was chosen for his demo. Like I said, he doesn't have to punch you to hurt you very badly. I'm not gullible and have met many charlatans over the years, but this is an example of the real deal. One thing is for sure though, you won't be able to do what you do at 70 like these guys can, I can guarantee that!

Ill definitely be able to walk around waving my arms in the air at 70... I suspect Ill be able to dance around with a ribbon clad sword if I was so inclined too. Explained to me what they are DOING that you are so amazed with.

 

[HKdrummer]

Wow. Im away from NES for the weekend and I get a 13 page reply, for one, thanks guys and curses, as I have a lot more to think about.

But that said, a lot of information is way better than none. I thought a lot about the goals aspect of this and for me, its going to be to have enough knowledge to get myself out of a bad situation - namely being put to the ground and having to fight my way up. On my feet, I'm fine and know I can handle myself, which is why traditional boxing probably isn't what I'd want....but true fighting techniques that will effectively stop an attack and or render an attacker (s) too damaged to continue would be the thinking.

So far, I have it narrowed to BJJ, Systema (but there's like one in the area) and maybe Krav.

BJJ is a crazy workout and really good to know considering most instances end up on the ground. For me personally, I always wanted to be a really nasty striker and learn how to kick. Jesus, is kicking hard.... BJJ is way out of my comfort zone, I lose my shit when I get pinned.

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You are correct in "most" cases here in the U.S. Because the name of the game is making money. I know because I've personally trained with many such so called masters in my lifetime. I don't expect you to believe me about the skills of Bok Nam Park, but if you ever have the opportunity to attend one of his workshops, do yourself a favor and test it for yourself. If it's all bullshit, you can quickly expose him and then post it online to debunk another so called master. He used to do monthly workshops at a martial arts school right in Watertown, so you wouldn't even have to travel to NJ where he's based. He's pretty old now though, so I'm not sure if he still does workshops up here anymore. He will let you attack him full power and speed (at least he did back when I was used as a test subject). I had the same level of confidence that you display, which is probably why I was chosen for his demo. Like I said, he doesn't have to punch you to hurt you very badly. I'm not gullible and have met many charlatans over the years, but this is an example of the real deal. One thing is for sure though, you won't be able to do what you do at 70 like these guys can, I can guarantee that!

I suspect, and maybe I'm wrong, that this is much like those people you see in evangelical churches that get touched and fall down and are "cured" If you believe it enough it affects you, if you don't believe you just chuckle. Just my .02

 

[newenglandjeff]

I'm not a Park Bok Nam ball rider by any stretch. I've met him. He's got juice, but IMO I've met and trained with better. Who knows, maybe he was having an off day. You could approach internal martial arts without any of the metaphysical jargon. I don't by any means discount it, but you still have to have the physics to back it up. Imagine the year is 1600, and you are training with your spear to keep an invading army from running over your village killing you, raping your wife and daughter, castrating your son and selling him into slavery. Do you really think you give a *#%K about Chi? The Chi stuff comes after you've got the physical aspects of combat locked down.

 

[MMArtist]

This is another great one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdrzBL2dHMI

He actually tries that BS on a very young UFC Hall of Famer Stephen Bonnar.

This guy Cameron was also a much praised Master who was on the cover of BB magazine 4x. Until this came out and everyone acted like they never bought it.

 

[MMArtist]

This one is good too. This guy fails some board strike and his students who are all lined up like they need 4 guys to hold his power or something are immediately apologizing like its their fault.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrxXpFQ_QIQ

This is his father..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Z0_n7tGnK0

These guys should really just get out of the MA business and become Pastors. They'd make a killing.

 

[peterthefish]

This is another great one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdrzBL2dHMI

He actually tries that BS on a very young UFC Hall of Famer Stephen Bonnar.

This guy Cameron was also a much praised Master who was on the cover of BB magazine 4x. Until this came out and everyone acted like they never bought it.

It's almost like the people who realize it's BS never show back up, just leaving a self-confirming crowd of nitwits. Or, as we used to call it, a circle jerk.

 

[newenglandjeff]

I suspect, and maybe I'm wrong, that this is much like those people you see in evangelical churches that get touched and fall down and are "cured" If you believe it enough it affects you, if you don't believe you just chuckle. Just my .02

So, we know Newtons second Law states Force= Mass X Accelleration. This "Chi" power everyone is all wrapped around the axel about is called Fah Jing. There are volumes of books about how you cultivate chi, and convert it into jing and other matters. The western way of thinking, is that to throw a solid punch, I need to accelerate the mass of my fist through the empty space between me and my target. Internal martial arts would have you generate all that acceleration within your body, assuming your fist/palm/shoulder/head was already in contact with the target. That's how you can deliver these 1" and 0" strikes. If somebody who is good at this stuff weighs 100 lbs, they should be able to deliver at least a full 100lbs of force spread over the area they are striking you with. If they are hitting you with just a single knuckle 1/2" of surface area, image a 200lb weight being momentarily place on your chest. Now imagine if they weigh 200lbs and they add the velocity of a half or full step to that same strike.

 

[Terminator03]

Logical fallacy is fallacious. I don't need to see every magician in the world to come to the conclusion that none of them have supernatural powers. At some point critical thinking kicks in, for most of us anyway.

The physics / physiology of the 1" punch is laughable. That you attended "many" magic shows and came away with the belief that one guy can really saw women in half says more about you than anything else.

When you make an incredible claim, it's up to you to support it, and unfortunately the plural of anecdote is anecdotes, not data.

I'm not sure what being an experienced fighter has to do with logical thinking, other than the fact that a lack of repeated blows to the head ensures I can think straight.

Why would it be up to me to support the claim? I'm not claiming I have the ability, only that I experienced it firsthand from someone who does. Whether you choose to believe me or not is irrelevant. I actually mentioned to MMArtist that he should try to investigate for himself. Personally, I have nothing to prove to anyone regarding this subject to be honest.

 

[Terminator03]

BJJ is a crazy workout and really good to know considering most instances end up on the ground. For me personally, I always wanted to be a really nasty striker and learn how to kick. Jesus, is kicking hard.... BJJ is way out of my comfort zone, I lose my shit when I get pinned.

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I suspect, and maybe I'm wrong, that this is much like those people you see in evangelical churches that get touched and fall down and are "cured" If you believe it enough it affects you, if you don't believe you just chuckle. Just my .02

I'm sure there is a whole lot of that which happens. In my case, I was strictly an external martial artist who was investigating internal arts. I had no preconceived notions about what I would experience, nor did I see any previous demonstrations prior to my own. He was able to project enough force with a palm that I have no doubt he could have stopped my heart if that was his intention. Am I a true believer? Only to the extent that I know there are a few people capable of doing what 99.9999% of us never will be able to do, or in some cases (as evidenced by this discussion) even comprehend.