hand to hand fighting

[Terminator03]

For me has been a mix of Aikido, Chen style Taiji and Xing Yi Quan for the last 25 years and teach private classes occasionally. I love them all equally, all forms have something to offer. As I get older however I tend to lean more towards internal arts for self defense. My ninja days are behind me

I agree. I have trained in many types and styles of empty hand combat but some of the most powerful I've ever encountered have been practitioners of the internal arts. It is not even describable to most people unless they have felt/experienced it firsthand. What you said is very true, external styles favor the young and externally strong, but the internal styles can take you into your 90's and beyond (if you live that long). I was very cocky in my late 20's because I was very good at sparring until I got my ass handed to me by a little, wiry Korean practitioner of Bagua who was in his 50's, or 60's at the time. As I mentioned the power I "felt" was not something I have ever encountered while sparring with any external system/style, regardless of their rank or experience. Unless you have "felt" true chi, you wouldn't understand what I'm talking about. Even though most of my training has been in external styles of Kung Fu, I know that internal styles are where it's at as you get older. Not to take away from the recommendations given about BJJ, Muay Tai, etc., but inmo, age and physical condition are huge deciding factors when selecting a martial style, or system. Whoever it was that suggested starting with Yoga was spot on inmo because having adequate flexibility and strength is more important as we age than simply knowing some moves.

 

[Artifact]

I agree. I have trained in many types and styles of empty hand combat but some of the most powerful I've ever encountered have been practitioners of the internal arts. It is not even describable to most people unless they have felt/experienced it firsthand. What you said is very true, external styles favor the young and externally strong, but the internal styles can take you into your 90's and beyond (if you live that long). I was very cocky in my late 20's because I was very good at sparring until I got my ass handed to me by a little, wiry Korean practitioner of Bagua who was in his 50's, or 60's at the time. As I mentioned the power I "felt" was not something I have ever encountered while sparring with any external system/style, regardless of their rank or experience. Unless you have "felt" true chi, you wouldn't understand what I'm talking about. Even though most of my training has been in external styles of Kung Fu, I know that internal styles are where it's at as you get older. Not to take away from the recommendations given about BJJ, Muay Tai, etc., but inmo, age and physical condition are huge deciding factors when selecting a martial style, or system. Whoever it was that suggested starting with Yoga was spot on inmo because having adequate flexibility and strength is more important as we age than simply knowing some moves.

Thank you for the in depth reply, definitely did a better job explaining the internal aspect of MA forms in general. I usually do one on one with experienced MA's to shape their skills and become a little more fluid and they get the shock of their life when they get tired so easy doing basic forms of Taiji and fail miserably during a push hands / sticking short session. Their self-esteem image lowers quickly.

My philosophy is to minimize damage to your self and a lot of external arts are terrible at that. Why punch or kick someone potentially damaging yourself in the process when you can demobilize your opponent using basic physics/forces to neutralize them using their energy. It's physics 101.

 

[PATRON]

as an almost 50 dude I would love a training catered to us old farts with limited flexibility

For us old fat farts,it's the three step move,now remember a tuck and roll can be used at anytime during this move along with all the cool tactical gear.Step one identify the threat, step two get into your defensive stance,and step three shoot the f^#ker because your to old to fight, or run.

 

[md2020]

Rule #1 is to never get yourself into a situation where you have to fight OR shoot some one PERIOD. If trouble follows you that is another story.
In real life fight there are NO rules and anything goes in a street fight!! Sometimes talking your way out of it may seem like a coward thing to do, but you get to live another day to learn from it.

I'm an old guy who can probably out run most people in there 20s. I have good endurance so chances are they won't catch up to me. You have to be aware of your environment ALL the time and don't become a victim. I'm not out wandering around Boston like I was when I was in my 20s. Heck, I am ready for bed at 10 pm. LOL

BTW - I like Patron's response!

YMMV.

 

[CTpatriot]

Umm... What?

I think I'd much rather focus on a sweep and gaining dominant position, rather than attempting to shank someone. I'm much more comfortable continuing the fight in the dirt...

I'm not sure I get why you'd think that would be a good idea. Help me understand.

hand to hand is nice, but when travon has you in a ground and pound, i think you need to transition to a blade, not everyone is a zimmerman that can draw and fire like that.

 

[MMArtist]

I agree. I have trained in many types and styles of empty hand combat but some of the most powerful I've ever encountered have been practitioners of the internal arts. It is not even describable to most people unless they have felt/experienced it firsthand. What you said is very true, external styles favor the young and externally strong, but the internal styles can take you into your 90's and beyond (if you live that long). I was very cocky in my late 20's because I was very good at sparring until I got my ass handed to me by a little, wiry Korean practitioner of Bagua who was in his 50's, or 60's at the time. As I mentioned the power I "felt" was not something I have ever encountered while sparring with any external system/style, regardless of their rank or experience. Unless you have "felt" true chi, you wouldn't understand what I'm talking about. Even though most of my training has been in external styles of Kung Fu, I know that internal styles are where it's at as you get older. Not to take away from the recommendations given about BJJ, Muay Tai, etc., but inmo, age and physical condition are huge deciding factors when selecting a martial style, or system. Whoever it was that suggested starting with Yoga was spot on inmo because having adequate flexibility and strength is more important as we age than simply knowing some moves.

I really have to disagree with this. The mind controls the body yes.. and being able to control and motivate your body is important. It can be done with confidence, fear whatever. Every fighter has their own way of getting mentally prepared to fight.

But talking about Chi and whatever else is just nonsense. If I had a dollar for every guy who stood there trying to convince me about chi or some other hocus pocus and then when it came down to it, got double legged and pounded on..... Id have a lot of dollars.

Look I have no problem with someone doing some Aikido, Hapkido, Ninjitsu, Yoga, Ribbon Dancing whatever. Im sure its fun and great exercise. But we are talking about fighting here.. potentially for your life. From everything I've experienced and I have been all over the country to all different gyms, I fought and/or cornered fighters in Japan, Brazil, Thailand and Guam. Training any of those traditional Asian Martial Arts besides Judo is about as useful as being a black belt in Connect Four when it comes to a fight with a real opponent.

Fighting is a physical and mental competition its not mystical or fancy. Its technical skill, strength, speed, conditioning, and the will to win. Anyone saying anything different is trying to sell you some snake oil.

 

[Pvt. Cowboy]

hand to hand is nice, but when travon has you in a ground and pound, i think you need to transition to a blade, not everyone is a zimmerman that can draw and fire like that.

When mounted, it's VERY difficult to get to your pockets. Zim got very lucky.

Knowing how to get OUT of that position, and preventing it in the first place, is a much better idea.

 

[CTpatriot]

When mounted, it's VERY difficult to get to your pockets. Zim got very lucky.

Knowing how to get OUT of that position, and preventing it in the first place, is a much better idea.

it would seem to me that training hand to hand should also involve knife techniques, but its up to you what you feel is best.

 

[Terminator03]

I really have to disagree with this. The mind controls the body yes.. and being able to control and motivate your body is important. It can be done with confidence, fear whatever. Every fighter has their own way of getting mentally prepared to fight.

But talking about Chi and whatever else is just nonsense. If I had a dollar for every guy who stood there trying to convince me about chi or some other hocus pocus and then when it came down to it, got double legged and pounded on..... Id have a lot of dollars.

Look I have no problem with someone doing some Aikido, Hapkido, Ninjitsu, Yoga, Ribbon Dancing whatever. Im sure its fun and great exercise. But we are talking about fighting here.. potentially for your life. From everything I've experienced and I have been all over the country to all different gyms, I fought and/or cornered fighters in Japan, Brazil, Thailand and Guam. Training any of those traditional Asian Martial Arts besides Judo is about as useful as being a black belt in Connect Four when it comes to a fight with a real opponent.

Fighting is a physical and mental competition its not mystical or fancy. Its technical skill, strength, speed, conditioning, and the will to win. Anyone saying anything different is trying to sell you some snake oil.

I used to think exactly like you until I had the pleasure of training with true masters and not American wannabe martial artists. Like I said, I was a really good fighter, or so I thought, until I felt what true power is, and it had nothing to do with physical size or strength, because I had plenty of that too. My whole life revolved around training, sparring, and working out in general for a solid decade before I had the resources and abilities to be train with some truly exceptional masters. You can call it hocus pocus, or whatever because you haven't felt it. As with most things in life, there are people that can fight, and then there are people that are masters of their art.

 

[newenglandjeff]

It's so surreal that we are having a conversation about transformoring Shen into Chi, and Chi into Jing on NES!

 

[MMArtist]

I used to think exactly like you until I had the pleasure of training with true masters and not American wannabe martial artists. Like I said, I was a really good fighter, or so I thought, until I felt what true power is, and it had nothing to do with physical size or strength, because I had plenty of that too. My whole life revolved around training, sparring, and working out in general for a solid decade before I had the resources and abilities to be train with some truly exceptional masters. You can call it hocus pocus, or whatever because you haven't felt it. As with most things in life, there are people that can fight, and then there are people that are masters of their art.

Yeah how many national/world titles did this "Master" win?

Explain to me how they showed you this mystical power? Cause I know they didn't actually fight anyone.

 

[Boghog1]

Yeah how many national/world titles did this "Master" win?

Explain to me how they showed you this mystical power? Cause I know they didn't actually fight anyone.

Pan Quing Fu is a world master. Would you say Shaolin Kung fu is more of a mental vs all out physical martial art like Mutai?

 

[newenglandjeff]

There was an internal martial arts guy named Mike Patterson that fought/trained successful fighters for Lei Tai and Kuo Shou competitions. Those matches included plenty Muay Tai folks.

 

[edseas2]

Can't carry a firearm? In a very dangerous environment? Learn this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLlo14jXYY8&sns=em

 

[M60]

I've said this before, but my standing use of force option with you is a firearm. and not 2 to the body one to head either. Its 'A Lot' to the 'Everywhere'

+1. FWIW, my instructor, Mr. Wong, told me years ago, that when martial artists are confronted with a firearm, the firearm always wins.

 

[JoeyD]

hand to hand is nice, but when travon has you in a ground and pound, i think you need to transition to a blade, not everyone is a zimmerman that can draw and fire like that.

You need to train to avoid getting into that situation. Myself I think you need to be very versatile when it comes to fighting as not everyone fights the same, there is no one move gets you in control for every situation. I know some guys, like my brother, that if he gets his arms around you thats it. Ive seen him squeeze people until they pass out all while being in a protected position. How do you defend against that? Say what you want but don't underestimate anyone you come in contact with because your "training" in some sort of fighting defense class.
Someone already said it but running and having stamina to run the distance will probably work most of the time.

 

[Terminator03]

There was an internal martial arts guy named Mike Patterson that fought/trained successful fighters for Lei Tai and Kuo Shou competitions. Those matches included plenty Muay Tai folks.

You are correct. Mike Patterson is a very skilled practitioner of Bagua, Hsing-I, Tai Chi, and some others I can't think of right now. He personally won several very high level fighting tournaments in Japan and China, as well as trained other successful champions since then. I met him when I was training in the San Diego area. I was also fortunate enough to appear in an issue of Inside Kung Fu magazine with my wife during that era because of an internal martial arts intensive that we participated in with master Henry Look on Maui.

 

[Terminator03]

Yeah how many national/world titles did this "Master" win?

Explain to me how they showed you this mystical power? Cause I know they didn't actually fight anyone.

Not that it matters, but I'm curious... how old are you? I'm not going to debate/defend something that you clearly have no experience with, or understanding of, but there have been only 3 people whom I have ever sparred with/ trained with that were capable of manifesting that "hokus pocus", "mystical power", or whatever other patronizing terms you can think of. As to your question, every one of these masters had multiple competitions under their belts in places such as Japan, Thailand, Taiwan, etc. in venues that don't have "rules" such as we have here for competitions. The only way for someone such as yourself to be convinced would be to attend a training seminar with someone such as Bok Nam Park (a very skilled Bagua master) and ask to spar with him. I've seen many fighters more skilled than I try.

 

[Cloverleaf Firearms Group]

Krav Maga is the Crossfit of the Martial Arts world. At this point in my life and ability to commit to combatives... I'm ok with that. rofl

 

[MMArtist]

Pan Quing Fu is a world master. Would you say Shaolin Kung fu is more of a mental vs all out physical martial art like Mutai?

Master of what? Dancing around on stage with ribbons attached to a stick? I look this guy up and its him and a bunch of women doing gymnastics routines.. Seriously? Get real....

The guy hasn't accomplished anything in legit combative competition. And fighting a bunch of other 5'3" ribbon twirlers doesn't count.

 

[MMArtist]

There was an internal martial arts guy named Mike Patterson that fought/trained successful fighters for Lei Tai and Kuo Shou competitions. Those matches included plenty Muay Tai folks.

First Lei Tai, Kuo Shou is not fighting. I mean its better than ribbon dancing Ill give it that.

 

[Boghog1]

aparently didn't look to deeply into his background taught the chinese and the canadian martial arts teams and has a punch that will shatter bones, I guess you are impervious to joint locks?
I would love to see some of your fights any on youtube?

 

[MMArtist]

Not that it matters, but I'm curious... how old are you? I'm not going to debate/defend something that you clearly have no experience with, or understanding of, but there have been only 3 people whom I have ever sparred with/ trained with that were capable of manifesting that "hokus pocus", "mystical power", or whatever other patronizing terms you can think of. As to your question, every one of these masters had multiple competitions under their belts in places such as Japan, Thailand, Taiwan, etc. in venues that don't have "rules" such as we have here for competitions. The only way for someone such as yourself to be convinced would be to attend a training seminar with someone such as Bok Nam Park (a very skilled Bagua master) and ask to spar with him. I've seen many fighters more skilled than I try.

I'm 38.

I have a wealth of experience with fighting and competing. None of the guys your talking about do IMO.

Look.. Fighting is like any other competition. The best basketball players are in the NBA, the best cyclists are in the Tour De France, the best drivers in F1 and so on. Fighting is no different. The best fighters in the world are fighting on the biggest stages UFC, WSoF, Bellator, OneFC, ADCC, Mundials, Olympic Games, Lumpinee Stadium, Showtime Boxing, HBO Boxing. All these guys your talking about are dancing around in a circle waving their hands selling you lies. They haven't accomplished anything but a cult of weak minded followers who buy their bs.

Like I said you can believe what you want. And train whatever you want, but if your talking about fighting lets be real here.

 

[MMArtist]

aparently didn't look to deeply into his background taught the chinese and the canadian martial arts teams and has a punch that will shatter bones, I guess you are impervious to joint locks?
I would love to see some of your fights any on youtube?

I read it and I laughed. Did he teach them how to shoot lasers from their eyes too?

Name is Rick Hawn. Knock yourself out.

 

[newenglandjeff]

First Lei Tai, Kuo Shou is not fighting. I mean its better than ribbon dancing Ill give it that.

This is why I gave up arguing over the keyboard. You got me, I'm tapping out.

Name is Rick Hawn. Knock yourself out.

Well you put your money where your mouth is, I'll give you that. +1

 

[SpaceCritter]

FWIW, sport art != combat art

The former is intended for competitions in which awards, rankings, ..., are given out, and (with allowances for injuries) everyone walks away when it has concluded. Its practitioners tend to be good to great all-around athletes, and can probably do well in most street-fighting situations on that basis alone.

The latter is intended for "when it counts" (i.e. life or death) situations. It is practiced by the military as an adjunct to other training, and by civilians for self-defense. This is especially so for those who do not happen to be great all-around athletes (e.g. a certain SpaceCritter). Techniques include those which, if performed in the octagon, would get the competitor disqualified, if not incarcerated: neck-breaking, gouging out of eyeballs, snapping elbows or knees, biting, ... They are also practiced with or without additional weapons, or as a means to get to another weapon (either one's own or via disarming an opponent).

 

[MMArtist]

FWIW, sport art != combat art

The former is intended for competitions in which awards, rankings, ..., are given out, and (with allowances for injuries) everyone walks away when it has concluded. Its practitioners tend to be good to great all-around athletes, and can probably do well in most street-fighting situations on that basis alone.

The latter is intended for "when it counts" (i.e. life or death) situations. It is practiced by the military as an adjunct to other training, and by civilians for self-defense. This is especially so for those who do not happen to be great all-around athletes (e.g. a certain SpaceCritter). Techniques include those which, if performed in the octagon, would get the competitor disqualified, if not incarcerated: neck-breaking, gouging out of eyeballs, snapping elbows or knees, biting, ... They are also practiced with or without additional weapons, or as a means to get to another weapon (either one's own or via disarming an opponent).

Without competition you will not know what is effective, or if you are actually proficient vs skilled opponents. Unless there is competition its just a lot of talk. The Marines are JUST starting to understand this which is why they are letting guys compete amongst themselves in competitions very similar to Mixed Martial Arts rules.

All that "Oh, well if we really fought with our super killy fighting style everyone would be dead" is an excuse perpetrated by the weak so they don't have to man up and test themselves. Neck cranks are allowed, snapping limbs is allowed, in Pride, stomping and soccer kicking was allowed.

Listen all this style stuff has already been settled. All these kung fu, aikido Jeet Kun Do and whatever other cooky Asian martial arts had their chance to compete with no rules back in the the 70's, 80's and 90's. They got clowned.

 

[SpaceCritter]

All that "Oh, well if we really fought with our super killy fighting style everyone would be dead" is an excuse perpetrated by the weak so they don't have to man up and test themselves.

The guys who tested it were typically military in combat situations (e.g. my instructor's first instructor, who was sent by the Navy during WWII to the Philippines specifically to learn/make use of the Filipino arts).

Most of us have to go to work tomorrow, myself included. Most of us are not athletes (either naturally, nor having the luxury of time to train to become one). Most of us hope never to be in a situation where deadly force is needed. That said... I carry a gun. Most of the people on this forum do likewise. I cannot carry one everywhere, for a variety of reasons (both legal and practical). Do I know if, when encountering a scrum of "yoots" (having somehow failed in maintaining situational awareness) I'm going to be able to pull off my multi-man defense skills? Nope, I'm going to have to hope for the best, take FC/FS, do what I can to eliminate the threat (just as I would with a gun, if I had one), and move on and/or look for an exit. When training, we do what we can to simulate and game these scenarios, but barring having expendable humans handy, it's mighty difficult to "compete" with it.

And no, I'm sorry, if you were in any sort of organized competition and applied fully, as intended, the sort of techniques we were training this weekend, at the very least you'd be in the call-the-lawyer flavor of grief. If the review of the evidence lead investigators to believe you did it intentionally rather than as happenstance, you'd probably be doing time. Especially if a weapon was involved (and in our training, one often is).

 

[HKdrummer]

AK, I do muay thai and to me, that is the most practical. Stand up fighting with elbows, knees and kicking. Basically the basis for most UFC fighting.

 

[MMArtist]

K, its been real. I have tried to help the people of this forum not get scammed and to seek some real combative training. But everyone here knows more about fighting than me apparently. I mean I am only a 20-4 professional and an Olympian.

Maybe next you can tell Travis Tomasie or the like how to shoot.