- Joined
- Aug 16, 2012
- Messages
- 965
- Likes
- 261
-
If you enjoy the forum please consider supporting it by signing up for a NES Membership The benefits pay for the membership many times over.
hand to hand fighting
- Thread starter AngelKing
- Start date
Cloverleaf Firearms Group
Instructor
That's actually not a horrible idea.
Bro, if you ever wanna challenge me to a *friendly* fight (no touching of the hair, and/or face), I accept. You'll then see some BJJ. Might sway your decision.
I've said this before, but my standing use of force option with you is a firearm. and not 2 to the body one to head either. Its 'A Lot' to the 'Everywhere'
I'm sure it will.....but let me get some training under my belt so I don't look like a total ass clown.....!
That's actually not a horrible idea.
Bro, if you ever wanna challenge me to a *friendly* fight (no touching of the hair, and/or face), I accept. You'll then see some BJJ. Might sway your decision.
Rode the bike to work and am killing time waiting for a storm to pass...
Cloverleaf brings up a very good point. Someone new to this should ease into striking / kicking with proper technique but definitely get some reps in. It takes time and practice to condition your hands, feet, whatever. Over time the bones involved with striking will ossify and be less susceptible to injury.
As most martial arts parents do, I had the boys take classes for many years. We did a little board breaking at the school, but really nothing challenging & more of a confidence booster once the students were ready. I spent a lot of time conditioning my hands somewhat for the sport but also for the stupid reason of wanting to have some parlor trick fun & impress upon my boys not to screw with Dad. Once your hands are in good enough shape, breaking bricks is good entertainment. My trick was to make sure it was a good solid, classic brick made of fine materials without any type of reinforcing mixed in. The brick you break is bridged across two supporting bricks. The trick is when 'holding steady' the brick with one hand, you raise the one end of the brick you are holding just a few millimeters up off the supporting brick. When you strike downward, snapping the brick just that short distance makes it much easier to break. Of course you have to be 'all in' and break the brick or your hand is F'ed.
I don't recommend stupid human tricks with bricks, but +1 for getting some striking reps in to condition hands, feet, etc.
Edit & a question:
No doubt a real fight / MMA gym is going to involve good sparring & training. However, how accommodating of us old farts and/or old newbs would they be? IMO not everyone would be geared for relatively hard core training.
Cloverleaf brings up a very good point. Someone new to this should ease into striking / kicking with proper technique but definitely get some reps in. It takes time and practice to condition your hands, feet, whatever. Over time the bones involved with striking will ossify and be less susceptible to injury.
As most martial arts parents do, I had the boys take classes for many years. We did a little board breaking at the school, but really nothing challenging & more of a confidence booster once the students were ready. I spent a lot of time conditioning my hands somewhat for the sport but also for the stupid reason of wanting to have some parlor trick fun & impress upon my boys not to screw with Dad. Once your hands are in good enough shape, breaking bricks is good entertainment. My trick was to make sure it was a good solid, classic brick made of fine materials without any type of reinforcing mixed in. The brick you break is bridged across two supporting bricks. The trick is when 'holding steady' the brick with one hand, you raise the one end of the brick you are holding just a few millimeters up off the supporting brick. When you strike downward, snapping the brick just that short distance makes it much easier to break. Of course you have to be 'all in' and break the brick or your hand is F'ed.
I don't recommend stupid human tricks with bricks, but +1 for getting some striking reps in to condition hands, feet, etc.
Edit & a question:
No doubt a real fight / MMA gym is going to involve good sparring & training. However, how accommodating of us old farts and/or old newbs would they be? IMO not everyone would be geared for relatively hard core training.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Aug 16, 2012
- Messages
- 965
- Likes
- 261
Most intimidating day, was the first day of walking into my BJJ school.
However, I've never met a more welcoming culture. It's not like walking into the Cobra Kai dojo, it's more like, "Hey man, welcome! Everyone is here to learn, and anyone who acts like a dick is asked to leave." Everyone wants to help everyone else out. It's shocking how awesome the culture is.
So to answer your question, VERY accommodating and accepting.
I've been training in martial arts for about 10 years and have a black belt in Kajukenbo (mainly it's kenpo, with a bunch of dirty street fighting, self defense and weapons defense thrown in.) I spent 2 of those years as an assistant instructor and most recently taught as an instructor with the permission of one of our systems 9th degree black belts. I've recently taken a hiatus - getting ready for a marriage and spending a lot of my time putting in extra hours. I can commit to training right now.
Here's my 2c.
Everyone always has different opinions - MMA guys say Mui Tai, BJJ etc. you've got classics who will tell you goshu or uechi or some other, more traditional karate. Having trained in a number of systems, I can tell you that no one system does it all. BJJ is great - but when you go to the ground and lock one guy up in side guard, you're defenseless against his punk buddies. You can train your body hard in goshu, but when someone gets you on the ground or pulls a gun on you close quarters, you don't have training for that either.
My advice is this: if the instructor of your chosen school says their system is better than any other system in the world and that nothing can beat it, walk away. If the system you choose says you can get a black belt in 2 years for the fixed price of _____, walk away. If the system you choose gives black belts to people who have never been in a real fight, or whose black belt (and other senior color belt) tests aren't absolutely grueling, walk away. Oh and tae Kwon do - if you're going to Korea to train, do it. Those guys can fight. Training state side tae Kwon do? Walk away.
Look for something that covers the general direction of self defense you want to learn. Look for a clean, reputable gym or dojo. Look for somewhere that doesn't charge annual fees or locks you into a contract. Instructors who teach because they want to don't use long term annual contracts.
Systems that use belt systems can be very rewarding, especially to students who like to have a physical manifestation of their progress - the belt (which is called an Obi). There's nothing wrong with wanting to go this way. Traditional schools do require kata and other seemingly hokey things, but at a good school, you will learn this is about tradition, mindset and respect and more than just physical combat. Other schools dispense with that entirely. Think about what you as an individual might enjoy.
Lastly, ask to observe a class. Do not participate the first time. See how the instructor handles questions, demonstrates techniques and treats students who are either out of line or not paying attention. A good instructor will be professional, keep discipline on his (or her) floor and above all, will be able to demonstrate techniques thoroughly. Their school should be clean, near and tidy with no smell or other areas of hygienic concern. Lastly, if they require the purchase of a gi or other gear in access of $60 or so - be weary.
I've done this for a long time and would be happy to have a pm convo with you.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Here's my 2c.
Everyone always has different opinions - MMA guys say Mui Tai, BJJ etc. you've got classics who will tell you goshu or uechi or some other, more traditional karate. Having trained in a number of systems, I can tell you that no one system does it all. BJJ is great - but when you go to the ground and lock one guy up in side guard, you're defenseless against his punk buddies. You can train your body hard in goshu, but when someone gets you on the ground or pulls a gun on you close quarters, you don't have training for that either.
My advice is this: if the instructor of your chosen school says their system is better than any other system in the world and that nothing can beat it, walk away. If the system you choose says you can get a black belt in 2 years for the fixed price of _____, walk away. If the system you choose gives black belts to people who have never been in a real fight, or whose black belt (and other senior color belt) tests aren't absolutely grueling, walk away. Oh and tae Kwon do - if you're going to Korea to train, do it. Those guys can fight. Training state side tae Kwon do? Walk away.
Look for something that covers the general direction of self defense you want to learn. Look for a clean, reputable gym or dojo. Look for somewhere that doesn't charge annual fees or locks you into a contract. Instructors who teach because they want to don't use long term annual contracts.
Systems that use belt systems can be very rewarding, especially to students who like to have a physical manifestation of their progress - the belt (which is called an Obi). There's nothing wrong with wanting to go this way. Traditional schools do require kata and other seemingly hokey things, but at a good school, you will learn this is about tradition, mindset and respect and more than just physical combat. Other schools dispense with that entirely. Think about what you as an individual might enjoy.
Lastly, ask to observe a class. Do not participate the first time. See how the instructor handles questions, demonstrates techniques and treats students who are either out of line or not paying attention. A good instructor will be professional, keep discipline on his (or her) floor and above all, will be able to demonstrate techniques thoroughly. Their school should be clean, near and tidy with no smell or other areas of hygienic concern. Lastly, if they require the purchase of a gi or other gear in access of $60 or so - be weary.
I've done this for a long time and would be happy to have a pm convo with you.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Find something you enjoy doing. If you like to box, find a boxing gym. If you like to roll, find a BJJ gym. Each 'system' has a weakness, BJJ is bad vs multiple attackers. Boxing is bad vs someone who wants to go to the ground. Since I mentioned it later, Aikido takes endless hours but is effective vs multiple attackers. Find something you will enjoy and get good at. While getting good at it, you will get in better shape. Other things may begin to interest you and you move on building on a good base.
TKD will give you more options to use your legs than most other forms. Your legs are stronger and have more reach than your arms ever will.
Shotokan (southern Japanese styles) uses an eastern style boxing, single strike philosophy. Quality of punches vs quantity.
Phillipino styles use sticks and knives.
Judo to get someone to the ground.
BJJ once it's on the ground.
I personally like Aikido, but it's so fine motor skill intensive, it's just really not for anyone who doesn't train constantly.
I don't care how good Ameri Te Do is, if you don't enjoy going, you won't go. If you don't go, you are no better off tomorrow than you are today. I'll take a dedicated boxer into a bar with me over a "I gots me a black belt...but never train anymore" martial artist of any stripe.
TKD will give you more options to use your legs than most other forms. Your legs are stronger and have more reach than your arms ever will.
Shotokan (southern Japanese styles) uses an eastern style boxing, single strike philosophy. Quality of punches vs quantity.
Phillipino styles use sticks and knives.
Judo to get someone to the ground.
BJJ once it's on the ground.
I personally like Aikido, but it's so fine motor skill intensive, it's just really not for anyone who doesn't train constantly.
I don't care how good Ameri Te Do is, if you don't enjoy going, you won't go. If you don't go, you are no better off tomorrow than you are today. I'll take a dedicated boxer into a bar with me over a "I gots me a black belt...but never train anymore" martial artist of any stripe.
VetteGirlMA
NES Member
I studied martial arts (kenpo) for about 10 years eventually I earned a 3rd degree black belt. I really did like it. It's funny because I have been thinking of getting back into it as well. I know the old saying about learning to ride a bike and I am sure I still have good reflexes, but, I think I need some stretching. One thing I really started to enjoy was sword fighting. That was a real workout.
knoxy
NES Member
NES Fight Club?
I did TKD for about 10 years as a kid. My instructor was a crusty korean dude and his brother had black belts in hap ki do and kung fu.
Up through blue belt it was mostly all TKD and run you to the ground endurance. Not the ideal MMA stuff, but having strength, endurance, agility and confidence goes a long way in 99% of street encounters.
After that level we did alot more grappling, joint breaks, general brutality, and ways to make an opponent submit or face permanent disability.
That being said, I hate fighting, and I've always been able to walk away from the few personal attacks I've encountered. the only times I've had to use any "skills" was in defense of others.
I guess my point is, there's more to fighting than "fighting". Whatever you choose to pursue, build endurance and agility and use your head, as a weapon if necessary.
And finally, the only fair fight is the one you win.
I did TKD for about 10 years as a kid. My instructor was a crusty korean dude and his brother had black belts in hap ki do and kung fu.
Up through blue belt it was mostly all TKD and run you to the ground endurance. Not the ideal MMA stuff, but having strength, endurance, agility and confidence goes a long way in 99% of street encounters.
After that level we did alot more grappling, joint breaks, general brutality, and ways to make an opponent submit or face permanent disability.
That being said, I hate fighting, and I've always been able to walk away from the few personal attacks I've encountered. the only times I've had to use any "skills" was in defense of others.
I guess my point is, there's more to fighting than "fighting". Whatever you choose to pursue, build endurance and agility and use your head, as a weapon if necessary.
And finally, the only fair fight is the one you win.
M&P - Thank you for that advice. It very sound in principle and helpful to some of us that are not versed in any form of hand to hand fighting.
I attended the Shooters Summit at Pelham last spring and was exposed to a number of things that need attention before ever employing a piece of hardware. A real eye opener to what a really bad situation looks like before you can even think about a gun in the problem. That said a lot of personal issues were exposed - age related physical abilities mostly (sadly) - and I've been lax in correcting my problems but a lot of the same advice M&P suggested was suggested at the summit.
Or just go wicked old school on them:
Down, R, Up, L, Y, B
I attended the Shooters Summit at Pelham last spring and was exposed to a number of things that need attention before ever employing a piece of hardware. A real eye opener to what a really bad situation looks like before you can even think about a gun in the problem. That said a lot of personal issues were exposed - age related physical abilities mostly (sadly) - and I've been lax in correcting my problems but a lot of the same advice M&P suggested was suggested at the summit.
Or just go wicked old school on them:
Down, R, Up, L, Y, B
M&P nailed it. I've been doing kempo for 35 years, the past 16 at a school with a huge ju-jitsu component, both standing and on the ground. First time I grappled I got choked out by a 16 yo green belt, eye-opening. BJJ is a very valuable skill, but relying on just that is one-dimensional, which you know if you watch UFC a bit.
My advice is to find a school that offers a well rounded curriculum, with substantial emphasis on conditioning and sparring/rolling. Get an idea of how often there's rigorous engagement with each other, run away from point sparring only. I teach the sparring classes at my school, it's got to be competitive, and there needs to be an element of danger (not malice) in it if you want to become effective. it's martial, you should get hit if you don't defend. The most important thing, in my opinion, is the right instructor with the right mindset.
Glad to talk via PM if you desire.
My advice is to find a school that offers a well rounded curriculum, with substantial emphasis on conditioning and sparring/rolling. Get an idea of how often there's rigorous engagement with each other, run away from point sparring only. I teach the sparring classes at my school, it's got to be competitive, and there needs to be an element of danger (not malice) in it if you want to become effective. it's martial, you should get hit if you don't defend. The most important thing, in my opinion, is the right instructor with the right mindset.
Glad to talk via PM if you desire.
73BLow
NES Member
You could just go try some different schools. Every school I have ever been to will let you do a few classes for free to see if you like it. Just like the "try before you buy" advice on guns. You don't have try to find the one perfect school to stay at forever. Here's how it went for me starting in '92:
Shotokan (w/ Aikido mixed in one day a week)
Tae Kwon Do - kata and tests were in Tae Kwon Do. but the school always brought in guest instructors, so we incorporated everything (Sambo, Muay Thai, Judo, BJJ, wrestling, Tai Chi, Escrima, etc.)
Kung Fu - let's see how my skills stack up against these guys when sparring, wore my karate gi the whole time I trained there
Kenpo - again, let's see how my skills stack up against these guys when sparring
Aikido - more traditional school, so was hard for me to not incorporate all the previous training styles
BJJ - gi and no gi. Loved going all out for 5 minutes trying to submit each other, then shake hands and move on to your next opponent, and the next
Shotokan (w/ Aikido mixed in one day a week)
Tae Kwon Do - kata and tests were in Tae Kwon Do. but the school always brought in guest instructors, so we incorporated everything (Sambo, Muay Thai, Judo, BJJ, wrestling, Tai Chi, Escrima, etc.)
Kung Fu - let's see how my skills stack up against these guys when sparring, wore my karate gi the whole time I trained there
Kenpo - again, let's see how my skills stack up against these guys when sparring
Aikido - more traditional school, so was hard for me to not incorporate all the previous training styles
BJJ - gi and no gi. Loved going all out for 5 minutes trying to submit each other, then shake hands and move on to your next opponent, and the next
Last edited:
I'm tired of beating this dead horse. FWIW, my thoughts on Traditional Vs Hybrid Vs Contemporary sport fighting were summed up in this thread http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/threads/264847-Krav-Maga?p=4186155#post4186155
And here; http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/threads/167861-Military-Combatives?highlight=xingyiquan
And here; http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/threads/167861-Military-Combatives?highlight=xingyiquan
Last edited:
- Joined
- Aug 16, 2012
- Messages
- 965
- Likes
- 261
Umm... What?
I think I'd much rather focus on a sweep and gaining dominant position, rather than attempting to shank someone. I'm much more comfortable continuing the fight in the dirt...
I'm not sure I get why you'd think that would be a good idea. Help me understand.
That's because you assume you are in a fair fight and that the other guy isn't going to pull a knife or other weapon. So while you want to continue the fight, most want to end the fight
I love these realistic fighting arguments. "Well we fight dirty so its better!" Like a legit sportive fighter is incapable of kneeing a little lower and hitting someone in the groin.
This is the difference. If some Krav Maga guy knees a Thai boxer in the groin it will hurt.. If the Thai Boxer knees him in the groin he'll be sterile.. forever. Cause he can actually setup, throw and land a knee properly.
I've been to ALL kinds of "martial arts" gyms all over the country. If you've been doing anything other than wrestling, sambo, judo, muay thai, boxing, bjj, no gi grappling, or some types of kickboxing.. you should ask for your money back.
Last edited:
Artifact
NES Member
For me has been a mix of Aikido, Chen style Taiji and Xing Yi Quan for the last 25 years and teach private classes occasionally. I love them all equally, all forms have something to offer. As I get older however I tend to lean more towards internal arts for self defense. My ninja days are behind me ![[wink]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/002.gif "Wink [wink]")
Artifact
NES Member
Exactly...beyond me why someone would want to drag a fight.
Artifact
NES Member
![[grin]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/041.gif "Grin [grin]")
,Taking the hypothetical out of it - we often train 2 on 1, 3 on 1 and use the bull ring (Google Kajukenbo bull ring if you want to see it). Taking someone to the ground and trying to get control is not practical with multiple attackers. I've tried and had my but whooped on the floor. Our senior level students often do this when they're faced with multiple attackers for the first time. Their bruised ribs, sprains and general remembrance of the shit show that was their first encounter with multiple attackers keeps them from repeating the mistake intentionally.
You have to be concerned with disparity of force - regardless of your training. Multiple attackers is tough to deal with. If you've not trained in this manner, try it. Ask a few fellow students to give it a few rounds with uptempo but controlled contact (you can step the contact up when you get used to working angles). Their goal is to get you out of the fight. Basically if you can't move or fight back, you lose. Competitive martial arts - the concept is to win the fight. When you start to think about true self defense, the concept is to survive the encounter at any cost (sometimes that means running once you've defended yourself and sometimes this means elevating your use of force). Either way, you will find that getting taken to the ground is the absolute worst with multiple guys.
In this regard, progression of force training is great (not everyone calls it that, but it's the same concept.) I've trained in Escrima and Vee arnis ju jitsu and I always carry a knife in addition to my firearm as a result. When I can't have either of those, I nice sturdy metal pen does well (airplanes, foreign countries etc.).
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
- Joined
- Aug 16, 2012
- Messages
- 965
- Likes
- 261
I think that's awfully risky for whoever wants to pull that knife. Disengage an arm from the fight to reach into a pocket? The other one is immediately getting arm barred, and snapped.
Definitely possible. But this isn't a fight that will stop by tapping out, so I'll take that risk to end the fight for good
http://youtu.be/-odiTK6CHwUALL forms previously mentioned are severely flawed and will get you killed in a real life scenerio. Anyone that practices them need to ask themselves if they want to fight, or just like sweating and rubbing bodies with men. The BEST form of self defense is often overlooked but originated in the 1980's. That's right! Aerobic Defense is the only defense you need. If every NES member would watch this complete video, we wouldn't need guns. You're welcome in advance.
Similar threads
