Had a double fire/burst today, possible cause?

[Lugnut]

Here's what happened as clearly as I can recall. I was shooting slow fire at 50 feet. I usually squeeze the trigger slowly and hold the trigger back. Then before the next shot I release trigger till reset and squeeze again. Today, once, after one shot it immediately did another... like a 2 round round burst (total of 2).

The gun has almost 2000 rounds thru it now. It's a S&W DK1911 completely stock and untouched. The trigger is great just like many other 1911s I've shot. The gun is greatly acccurate and has been flawless to date.

My question: Could this be a mechanical issue or could I have been holding it too loose causing a possible double pull/trigger bounce?? I definitely didn't consciously pull the trigger twice. I'm perplexed and haven't had this happen with ANY other guns. I usually hold the gun with decent grip but certainly not overly firm. Anyone have something like this happen? After this occured I shot about 100 rounds without issue. I made sure the grip was much firmer.

 

[matt]

if you can do it safely, try with a loose grip to see if you can get it to happen again. I still don't understand the mechanism that supposedly can let this happen when shooting limp wristed.

 

[9000S]

My 2 cents....

heres my opinion on this incident... which is totally out there. but hey who knows. I had a paintball gun a tippman model 98, and as a mod you could do on it, which did work but totally voided warranty and blew the gas/bolt mechanism in the process, was this: if you drilled a hole in a specific location in the receiver, and slipped in a paper-clip/small nail and then pulled the trigger it would go full auto on you. what the obstruction did was block a portion of the sear on the trigger mechanism so that it couldn't reset until the trigger was released. that being said maybe your sear is wearing down? or maybe it needs a really REALLY good cleaning on the inside? perhaps residue build-up caused the sear to slip like the obstruction/mod on my old paintball gun? Just a thought prolly not too close there, otherwise I would guess maybe you accidentally jerked?

as someones tagline says, I am not a gunsmith nor do I play one on t.v.

let me know how it all pans out.

dan

 

[Lugnut]

Yeah... the more I think about it the more I'm thinking I didn't do something to cause this. I've done some searching on this and a faulty sear/hammer can cause a burst. However- I bought this gun brand new and it's never been mucked with.. I'll likely have S&W give it a look over.

 

[9000S]

Ammo

What kind are you shooting through it? and also what kind of cleanings have you given it? Like I said I know little to nothing bout guns, but thats a guess on my part. I heat wolf can be dirty at times, so maybe gunk collected in a spot thats not part of a normal cleaning process? If your sure your pulls were deliberate and slow... than maybe its not you. I would say look into a way to clean it really well including the trigger action that is harder to reach. See if junk comes out?

that being said please sign this disclaimer, that any an all action you take are of your own volition and that I can and will not be held liable for any loss or injury up to and including loss of fingers hand or death. Thank you.

Jk! ... (sorta)

 

[Cross-X]

Lugnut, sit tight for a bit. EddieCoyle will be along shortly offering to buy your pesky busted pistol.

Guaranteed.

 

[JimB]

my guess

Were you shooting reloads, if so maybe a primer was not seated far enough,

just a guess.. could be a faulty firing pin.... i would put some more
rounds thru it. if it happens again, it could the gun.

JimB

 

[Lugnut]

Gun was very clean. WWB 230Gr bullet. I'd keep shooting it but I wasn't happy where the 2nd shot went-probably at the peak of the muzzle flip. I don't want that to happen again.

 

[PistolPete]

The problem is most definately the sear engagement. Possibly the sear was ground down to much either when the gun was built or the sear has worn out. I would be about 98% sure that is the cause. If you have a death grip or not on the gun that won't make a difference with hammer follow. Have you done any messing with the trigger components at all? I knew someone that did a trigger job on a 1911 and didn't have proper hammer and sear engagement and he loaded the mag, racked the slide, inserted the mag and dropped the slide and the gun went full auto until it was empty.

The simple fix is that you need a trigger job. As for the safety causing it that can't be the issue because the safety would be disengaged and would have nothing to do with the above issue. If you want to check to see if the safety is functioning properly all you need to do is to rack the slide so the hammer is cocked, put the safety on and with the safety in the up position press the trigger. After pressing the trigger, let off the trigger completely and then disengage the safety. If the safety isn't fitted properly then the hammer will fall.

Let me know if you have any questions.
Pete

P.S. I would send the gun back to S&W right away and not use it until it is fixed. This has happened to me with my Infinity and a simple trigger job fixed the problem.

 

[Lugnut]

The problem is most definately the sear engagement. Possibly the sear was ground down to much either when the gun was built or the sear has worn out. I would be about 98% sure that is the cause. If you have a death grip or not on the gun that won't make a difference with hammer follow. Have you done any messing with the trigger components at all? I knew someone that did a trigger job on a 1911 and didn't have proper hammer and sear engagement and he loaded the mag, racked the slide, inserted the mag and dropped the slide and the gun went full auto until it was empty.

The simple fix is that you need a trigger job. As for the safety causing it that can't be the issue because the safety would be disengaged and would have nothing to do with the above issue. If you want to check to see if the safety is functioning properly all you need to do is to rack the slide so the hammer is cocked, put the safety on and with the safety in the up position press the trigger. After pressing the trigger, let off the trigger completely and then disengage the safety. If the safety isn't fitted properly then the hammer will fall.

Let me know if you have any questions.
Pete

P.S. I would send the gun back to S&W right away and not use it until it is fixed. This has happened to me with my Infinity and a simple trigger job fixed the problem.

Pete- no I have not touched the trigger on this gun (nor have I sent it to anyone else). As a matter of fact when I first bought it I was impressed with the trigger compared to my other guns (mostly Glocks and Sigs). The DK version I have isn't a Performance Center gun so I doubt they did any trigger work at the factory. I bought it new from FS and I'm sure nothing happened to it before I bought. All safety checks work fine. I've NEVER had it fire when dropping the slide. This happened while in the middle of the magazine. It's definitely going back to S&W. As a matter of fact a few months ago I thought I fired a round that was a squib load or something as it made a strange noise. It wasn't a squib.

 

[PistolPete]

They will just replace the trigger components. This is not uncommon. Like I said before I had this happen to me on a custom gun. Not a big deal. Just replace the trigger parts and you're good to go. When it happened to me I didn't shoot the gun until I fixed it. If anyone tries to say it is because Smith doesn't build good guns etc. that isn't the case. My SV did it and the gun is great. Let us know when you find out.

Pete

 

[M1911]

Lugnut:

Here's a test to perform. Unload the gun -- remove the magazine, lock open the slide, visually check that the chamber is empty. Check it again. Are you sure? Really sure?

Ok. Close the slide. Point the gun in a safe direction. Dry fire and hold the trigger to the rear. With the trigger still held to the rear, use your support hand to pull the slide all the way to the rear and let the slide go. Do NOT let the slide down slowly -- let it go.

With the trigger still held to the rear, the hammer should still be cocked. If the hammer followed the slide down, then you've got a problem. Let the trigger go forward. You should hear the sear engage. Now pull the trigger again.

 

[EddieCoyle]

Lugnut, sit tight for a bit. EddieCoyle will be along shortly offering to buy your pesky busted pistol.

Guaranteed.

I'll have to call a lawyer first to see if it's legal.

 

[Cross-X]

I'll have to call a lawyer first to see if it's legal.

"Gee-whiz, officer, I had no idea it would do that, honest!"

 

[adweisbe]

Check the over travel screw in the trigger. Try screwing it in farther. Improper grip safety fit (bad frame actually) and a long trigger bow can result in the disconnector not functioning. If you can feel the hammer hit the sear (not smooth when falling) then you have put the screw in too far. Back it out until the hammer falls smoothly (ride the hammer down while pulling the trigger back to get a feel) and then screw it back out another half turn.

I had a S&W 1911 that went back three times for this issue. They replaced the whole FCG except for the trigger the first two times and it did no good. It wasn't until they replaced the trigger that the problem stopped. One individual with a Kimber solved this problem that way.

If the safety isn't fitted properly then the hammer will fall.

Even if the hammer does not fall you should check for sear movement by gently thumbing the hammer back a little farther. If you a hear a click then you know that the safety is allowing some sear movement. This check should be done the same way as the last except you should pull the trigger with double the amount of usual force and you should not manipulate the safety before checking for the click.

 

[Lugnut]

Lugnut:

Here's a test to perform. Unload the gun -- remove the magazine, lock open the slide, visually check that the chamber is empty. Check it again. Are you sure? Really sure?

Ok. Close the slide. Point the gun in a safe direction. Dry fire and hold the trigger to the rear. With the trigger still held to the rear, use your support hand to pull the slide all the way to the rear and let the slide go. Do NOT let the slide down slowly -- let it go.

With the trigger still held to the rear, the hammer should still be cocked. If the hammer followed the slide down, then you've got a problem. Let the trigger go forward. You should hear the sear engage. Now pull the trigger again.

No problems with this test...

 

[Nashmack]

Check the disconnector. My 1911 did it too after about 12,000 rounds (not all fired by me)

 

[Lugnut]

Check the over travel screw in the trigger. Try screwing it in farther. Improper grip safety fit (bad frame actually) and a long trigger bow can result in the disconnector not functioning. If you can feel the hammer hit the sear (not smooth when falling) then you have put the screw in too far. Back it out until the hammer falls smoothly (ride the hammer down while pulling the trigger back to get a feel) and then screw it back out another half turn.

I had a S&W 1911 that went back three times for this issue. They replaced the whole FCG except for the trigger the first two times and it did no good. It wasn't until they replaced the trigger that the problem stopped. One individual with a Kimber solved this problem that way.


Even if the hammer does not fall you should check for sear movement by gently thumbing the hammer back a little farther. If you a hear a click then you know that the safety is allowing some sear movement. This check should be done the same way as the last except you should pull the trigger with double the amount of usual force and you should not manipulate the safety before checking for the click.

I've never been able to figure out what kind of tool is used to adjust the overtravel screw- however- the hammer drops quite smoothly.

The hammer has some extra movement (past normal position) but the only clicking I hear is when it hit the beavertail.

 

[Arioch]

When I was shooting with the Army, I saw a 1911 empty its magazine when a shooter (against regs) let the slide slam home by toggling the slide release lever. These Colts were pretty old and beat by this time. I think the problem turned ou to be the sear.

 

[adweisbe]

Here is a clearer description of how to function check the safety.

Hold the trigger to the rear and hand-cycle the slide briskly. Release the trigger and listen for the disconnector to reset. It will be a light click. Engage the thumb safety, and pull the trigger with about double the amount of force needed to cause the hammer to fall. Hold the left side of the gun to your ear and slowly pull the hammer past full-cock. No click should be heard. A click means that the safety isn't blocking the sear correctly.

The click comes from the sear falling back down onto the hammer because it was pushed out a little but was still caught on the hammer hooks.

The overtravel adjustment is usually changed with an allen wrench.

 

[Lugnut]

I called S&W and it's going back. They insisted that they take a look at it and will be sending me a label. Regards to the overtravel screw- it appears that it could have been set up to reduce more of the overtravel- I'll mention that to S&W. Thanks.

 

[Jake L]

Too much over travel adjustment will cause the gun not to cycle. Hammer follow can be caused by to light a sear spring setting, sear and trigger improper engagement, however seeing that this will not hammer follow all the time it most likely is that the disconector got hung up and did not reset the sear. New gun could have happend. Let S&W sort it out.

 

[Lugnut]

Just got a call back from the guy that worked on my gun. I think it was Art Asera... unfortunately when I called him back he had left already. I talked with another gun that was very helpful and told me that Art knows his guns and I should be all set. He said Art repalced the trigger bar and hammer. I can't wait to get it back. He mentioned I could pick it up 24/7 at the guard shack... I'm heading there when I can!

 

[Lugnut]

Well just got the 1911 back today and called customer support to confirm what they did.

They said they replaced the "draw bar" and the hammer. The guy said the draw bar wasn't the trigger but it sure looks like a new trigger... no wear marks on the sides like my other one had.

I guess they test fired it as well.