Gunshot first aid.

bambame2

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Does anyone put on a class for tactical first aid. I just saw a show on the out door ch and thought it would be worth doing. Any info would be appreciated.
 
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"Tactical first aid"?

If you get shot, anything you do should be a temporary solution while you get to the hospital ASAP. The Red Cross does first aid classes - if you're looking for something more specific, you're probably looking for EMT training.
 
I have been working on getting someting together for worcester pistol and rifle. My thought is to get a paramedic and an er trauma surgeon to work together to give the class. I have a paramedic willing to commit and have a doc who is almost ready to go. Its still in research stage but i think the outcome will be highly beneficial to all. I will update as things progress.
 
stick a tourniquet on it and throw him in the truck, let the real medics figure it out from there.[wink]
 
If you get shot, just act calm, talk about how dangerous guns can be, and ask your assistant to hand you the EBR. Ignore the panicking school kids.

That's what Lee Paige did anyway. [laugh]
 
stick a tourniquet on it and throw him in the truck, let the real medics figure it out from there.[wink]

Thats actually good advice. Arterial pressure applied with the hands at least to stem the bleeding. You can also learn how to apply an occlusive dressing to any "sucking chest wounds". Aside from those 2 scenerios, there is little you can do to help but to get medical attention ASAP. If none is available, the guy is probably going to die if it is a wound with arterial bleeding or if any major organs have been hit.

For a wound to the extremeties (arms, legs) use a T-shirt or whatever and apply pressure to the wound and also raise the limb so it is above the heart. Much more than that and you are getting into EMT / paramedic stuff. You are also probably not going to have the equipment on hand that they have. If this is a Zombie uprising type scenerio, the victim is probably going to die a slow death from infection. Even from a wound that would be reletively minor in normal times with medical attention. I have some stuff called Quik Clot which is a sponge treated with a chemical that that when applied to a wound, helps to stop bleeding. They are really good, but I don't know if Joe Civilian can buy them. You could check online if interested and having one or 2 of them in your range bag could save a life.


<---CPR/First Aid certified, medical first responder, Army combat lifesaver course.
 
Best advice I can think of is........ DONT SCREW AROUND DOING ANYTHING IN PLACE. There are only two things really that are going to kill you from a GSW. Blood loss or a sucking chest wound. A trauma surgeon once told me, and theres alot of documentation to support it, that the thing that kills more GSWs are PROFESSIONAL RESCUERS. A comparison study was done in some big ER, and they found that GSW (Gun shot wounds) Patients survived more often when it was a gangbanger brought in by his or her peeps as opposed to someone who was treated by EMS and transported. Too much time is spent trying to stabilize something that only surgery can truely stabilize. If you spend ANY money on a first aid kit for your car or range bag.. pick up a couple of these.......

http://www.olive-drab.com/od_medical_tech_trauma_bandage.php

Stop the bleeding, ensure breathing, and get to a hospital. Whatever you do to fix the first 2, make sure your doing it while trying to get to the third.
 
How you treat a gunshot wound depends on a ton of variables...where you get shot, what you got shot with, where you were when you get shot, how far you are from professional care, etc., etc., etc...

Did you have a specific scenario in mind?

Ya I was looking for a class like the one put on by a man named Doc Gun of Indiana. It's a shooting class combined with the medical end of things and also has evac under fire.


I have been a fire fighter for ten years so I do have a skill set in this area, I just like training.I also like to hone my skill and find my week points so I can improve myself.
 
Gonzo your safe.. they took it out of all the kits.. now they got some kind of special gauze that you stuff in the wound..... works like quick clot but without the vicious chemical burn
 

[grin]

I have some stuff called Quik Clot which is a sponge treated with a chemical that that when applied to a wound, helps to stop bleeding. They are really good, but I don't know if Joe Civilian can buy them. You could check online if interested and having one or 2 of them in your range bag could save a life.

Joe Civilian can buy them.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias=aps&field-keywords=quickclot&x=0&y=0
 
The GOAL Foundation is hosting Bill Lewitt. http://www.thegoalfoundation.org/courseschedule.html

Best instructor I've had on 1st aid so I asked him to run a few courses at GOAL.

+1 Bill Lewitt did a short course at the NEShooters summit. He really knows his stuff and is an excellent instructor. I really want to take a full version of his course. He went over tourniquets, chest seals (bolin and hyfin), and hemorrhagic powders (celox).
 
+1 Bill Lewitt did a short course at the NEShooters summit. He really knows his stuff and is an excellent instructor. I really want to take a full version of his course. He went over tourniquets, chest seals (bolin and hyfin), and hemorrhagic powders (celox).

Yep, was impressed with Bill's knowledge and skills; his presentation was one of my favorites during the summit. I'll be registering for his class at GOAL on 9/4.
 
Gonzo your safe.. they took it out of all the kits.. now they got some kind of special gauze that you stuff in the wound..... works like quick clot but without the vicious chemical burn

They just took it out of the Army kits. USMC kits still have the original formula. It also looks similar to powdered coffee creamer, which is something to keep in mind if you have smartass friends.
 
They just took it out of the Army kits. USMC kits still have the original formula. It also looks similar to powdered coffee creamer, which is something to keep in mind if you have smartass friends.

Actually the (modern) original stuff is based on potato flakes. Old school Medic training involved reversing shock, hence the high mortality rate in the field (I am talking urban field here) Current dogma revolves around keeping the victim in a state of compensetory shock until you can get him to a trauma center.
I've been a Paramedic for about 15yrs. I have seen a few GSWs in my time. I also happen to run a training company. If anyone is interested and we can get at least 10 people, I would run a 4hr basic gsw care class at my local club (located in Central Mass,). It would include care, anatomy and physiology (using animal cadavers from a local slaughterhouse) and some live range demos. (HP vs jacketed, etc.)

If anyone is interested pm me and Ill set it up.
Cheers
Dan
Firetrainingconcepts.com
 
Hi everybody,

Thanks for the kind words. I have really enjoyed both of the classes I have run for NE Shooters, and as was mentioned I have a class coming up with GOAL in the near future. I will also be teaching at the 1 inch to 100 yards Warrior-Conference in Reno coming up in a few weeks. For those of you who don't know me, I'm a Paramedic/RN and I have worked doing not only 911 but Critical Care Transport which is the highest level of care available in the field. I have been trained by some of the best ER docs at Brigham and Womens and I taught at the Sig Arms Academy for 4 years under Bank Miller.

Trauma managment isn't rocket science but it is tricky. It's like any other skill that a warrior trains... You need to know what to do, how to do it, and when to do it. Most of all, you can't hesitate when it's time to do it! It's not enough to take a red cross of American Heart First Aid class though.... or even an EMT class! That's the same as saying if you take your basic safety pistol class you're now ready for a gunfight. You're just not.

The class that I teach is heavy on What to do and When to do it. Timing is everything in a gun fight! I'm happy to answer any specific questions either publically or by PM.

Also, please see my announcement below!

Stay safe and keep training!

Bill Lewitt

The Tactical Development Group in conjunction with Rescue-Essentials.com is now publically offering our Catastropic Injury Kit. I designed this kit for a major overseas contractor, and I have trained and deployed dozens of people around the world carrying it. I have field tested this kit against some of the other major IFAK's and I feel that it performs better and is better equipped than any other individual trauma kit on the market.

When I was tasked to designed a personal trauma kit for overseas operations, my instructions were clear; Make the best kit you can that is compact, easy to carry, easy to use, that can treat 2 serious casualties or one major multi-trauma. It must address the results of RPG and IED attacks, high speed projectiles, and motor vehicle accidents in remote and austere locations. Simple right??

I designed the kit around a Maxpedition FIGHT pouch which is in my opinion the best IFAK on the market. I own several kits from Paraclete, BlueForce Gear, NARP and SEPCOPS Gear and I like this one the most. The number one reason is its versatility. You open up most IFAKS and the kit is configured ONE way for ONE loadout. You can't really swap out gear or specialize it. Not so with the FIGHT pouch. It is very versatile.

Next, I included the best gear on the market that is both high speed but time tested. I included "redundant" materiels, including 2 hemostatics, 2 tourniquets, 2 battle dressings, 2 bulky gauze, and 2 chest seals. I have researched every one of these products both through interviews with medics and phsycians serving overseas as well as all peer-reviewed medical studies which have been published and are publically available.

Why all the "extra" gear? Who said you only need one tourniquet? What about multiple entry and exit wounds? Multiple casualties and you're the only one trained and equiped to treat them? If you research the major terrorist attacks, both successful and failed, what do you see? London, Madrid, Bali, Mumbai, the World Cup attacks in Uganda and lets not forget the attempted bombing in Times Square. Small groups of armed and trained men who commit terrible acts of violence which result in many casualties. If you bring that message back to the US we not only face the possibility of those same threats but also a bad economy and an increasingly violent society where workplace shootings, school shootings and gun crimes are more and more common.

It is no longer enough to be armed. You need to know how to treat the results of armed violence.

The Catastrophic Injury Kit is suited for SWAT and Military Operations, Patrol vehicles, hunters and outdoorsmen, overseas contractors, and responsibly armed Citizens. It ataches easily to body armor or a drop-leg panel, a blow-out kit or active shooter bag, and is designed to accept a shoulder strap. It retails right around 200 dollars. This is an advanced notice! I don't think rescue-essentials has posted this kit on their site yet, but they will soon. Anyone who's interested can PM me and I can forward you their newsletter where they are announcing the launch.
 
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First Aid is First aid, there is nothing tactical about it. Learn the basics, and then learn to dial 911. Never apply a tourniquet unless you know what the hell you are doing.
 
First Aid is First aid, there is nothing tactical about it. Learn the basics, and then learn to dial 911. Never apply a tourniquet unless you know what the hell you are doing.

Tip from a trauma surgeon: Give him something to work with. Place the tourniquet far enough up the limb that the surgeon can actually work with the artery. If the tourniquet is too close to the point of injury, the surgeon will have a harder time fixing the damage.
 
You've obviously never heard of Bill or seen him teach. [rolleyes]

I am not impressed with anyone that claims to be able to teach a bunch of tools how to be trauma warriors.. It would be really nice if you would stop busting my balls all the time.. i don;t know what I ever did to you, but jesus.. give it a rest..
 
I am not impressed with anyone that claims to be able to teach a bunch of tools how to be trauma warriors.. It would be really nice if you would stop busting my balls all the time.. i don;t know what I ever did to you, but jesus.. give it a rest..

Have you looked at his experience? Have you ever attended one of his classes? Have you ever talked to anyone who attended a class that he has taught? I'm guessing NO. Instead, you jump on him when you have no idea what his experience or curriculum is.

Perhaps if you were read more posts than you make, you may learn something new around here. You already know what my problem with you is: You couldn't hit the broadside of a barn with an M&P compact and you go around posting that that the gun sucks, that M&P's suck. You post in EVERY thread about M&P's that your glock 17 is better and it conceals better than an M&P. Just about anybody would shoot better with a 17 than compact M&P!
 
How high is high enough, and when is the right time. Who here has actually put one on, in a real situation, and what was the end result. Not really interested in what people have HEARD, or been taught.. I have been taught and heard the same stories and instructions.. Looking for honest real life experiences here, what worked and why, and what didnt work.
 
Hemostatic Powders

This is one of the most problematic AND beneficial things to come down the Pike in years.

You guys are right about 1 thing: The ORIGINAL QuickClot from back in the late 90's and early 00's did produce heat. This was a known issue from day 1. The manufacturer actually designed the product originally to pick up chemical spills, like speedy-dry.... Of course 175 degrees of heat in a chemical spill may be a problem[wink]

The heat problem was deemed a result of soldiers and marines not using it properly. The specific algorytm was to REMOVE as much blood as possible from the wound cavity and THEN place the quick clot. Less fluid = less heat. It is of course a lot to ask for guys under fire to read the packaing but I sse it as a training issue. Regardless, the USSOCOM surgeons decided to ban the product since other versions had come on-line.

HEMCON was anoter great product, except for the fact that it generated micro-emboli that caused massive tissure ischemia down stream of the wound (think mini clots in your bloodstream looking for a home).

These days I reccomend only 1 product. It is called Celox and comes in a few different versions. My CIK's contain both Powder and Gauze versions. Celox works in the cold (cold limits the bloods ability to clot), works on anti-coagulated blood (people on blood thinners like aspirin) and the gauze can be used to treat burns as well as massive blood loss. I have spoken personally with surgeons from the 10th Mountain Division and they have told me that they like this stuff the best.

Basic First Aid isn't so Basic, is it?? [smile]

Best regards to all.... Stay safe and train hard!

Bill Lewitt
 
Tourniquets:

The rule is 2 inches above the wound but do your best to stay below the next joint up the limb. Knuckle Dragger is right - You need to give the surgeons somthing to work with but you also do not want to unnecessarily deny oxygen to any more tissue that you need to. Also - The grim reality is that an amputaion below the elbow is much easier to live with than an amputation above the elbow.

My tourniquet algorythm is simple:

Apply direct pressure with a dressing till it fails

Apply tourniquet

If bleeding persists, apply Hemostatic Powder.

PM's always welcomed.

Lewitt
 
Interesting. One of the senior medics in my Guard unit that has been deployed with SF a couple times has said that Celox is inferior compared to the new QuickClot formulations. He has treated a decent number of traumatic injuries while under fire, but then again he's never conducted actual controlled evaluations of the two products, so it could be one-sided observation.
 
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