"Guns...not my thing. I'm not a huge fan of that amendment."

[MassBites]

Actually Clinton ran on reforming welfare. It was one of the big promises he made during the 92 campaign.

However, I agree, I think the compromise worked out with Gingrich worked far better than the original proposal, and the Dems would never have passed it if they were still in control of the house. -Probably has a lot to do with why I voted Rep. in the 94 congressional elections

I am aware of his "campaign promises." But we all know the worth of campaign promises. Fact is, after he was elected, he did nothing about it for 2 years. Actually he did nothing about it for 4 years. In 1996, however, he did sign the Republican sponsored bill, but not willingly.

We agree on the second half of your post. Not only would they not have passed it if they still held the majority, the Democrats never sponsored a Welfare Reform bill of their own even when they did hold the majority.

 

[MassBites]

Back to the topic at hand...The far left loves to ignore three amendments: 2, 9 and 10.

-Not that the right is any better about 9 and 10. They're just as interested in telling us what to do as the left.

Today, I see no difference between the two parties.

They are all on the take.

They only have their own personal interest's in mind.

They believe that the people are meant to serve them.

They are incompetent.

They're not particularly bright.

They no longer consider our Constitution relevant.

They all suck.

We the People need to limit their terms, and We the People need to outlaw PACs, and all lobbyists.

 

[drgrant]

Second, I've noticed it's really quite difficult for some Republicans to grasp the concept that GUNS aren't the most important things on many Democrats' list of priorities. There are more issues than just the Second Amendment.

Every time I hear this statement, I have to hold back the vomit. What sucks worse is I even hear people I care about saying it... it's not just Democraps, either, fwiw.

Yes, sure there are other issues, no doubt. Problem is, a shitload of people are willing to throw a very important one (or for that matter, MANY issues of individual freedom and civil rights in general) under the bus for the sake of expediency in their own little agendas- often times involving issues which shouldn't even be the province of government at all. [sad2]

"The Gun Thing" is one of a many canaries in the coalmine....

Problem is I fear that most people will not "get it" until their rights and individual freedoms have completely been raped from them- they won't get it until it's too damned late.


-Mike

 

[drgrant]

That's my fear, too, but the fact still remains that there is more to this country than guns. It'd be wonderful if everyone thought the way we did, but they don't. There are issues important to other people we completely ignore they way they do to us.

The problem is that peoples definition of "more to this country" often ends up involving layers of socialist authoritarian crap- running the gamut from slavery via excessive taxation, to the government controlling people's individual existence via metric tons of unnecessary laws and regulation. Of course the politicians disguise it in layers of frosting.... its too bad people haven't figured out that, 8 out of 10 times all they're doing is frosting a turd, a lie.

I'm sure the founders are spinning in their graves like gas turbines, over this, too. They're watching a bunch of people who were given the best nation in the world, watching them turn it into "Eurexico" . [sad2]

Don't mind me I'm just frustrated. In the words of Clark Griswold- "Holy shit, where's the tylenol??"


-Mike

 

[theGringo]

Some of you, frankly, are f***ing stupid when it comes to how you behave.

Every member of the gun community is an ambassador for the gun community. You should always be on your best behavior. If you can't be, don't make the rest of us look bad. Shut up. Don't talk about it. Let those of us who can properly phrase sentences so we don't spew bigoted bullshit do the talking.

Being "f***ing stupid", as I am, I'll leave it up to you to be the ambassador of good will to pro-gun progressives, both of them. I'm too "f***ing stupid" to get past the naive idea that you can't have political freedom without economic freedom. Excuse me a moment while I go color in a few more pages in my "The Road To Serfdom" coloring book.

So imagine you're not a gun person, and you're going shooting for the first time, which is a bit exciting and but also a little scary. Then, other shooters start doing rude, but obvious things to make it apparent you don't belong, that they don't want you there, and that your very presence is insulting.

You still think they want anything to do with us?

Sounds like trying to take on a career in the public schools, which is a bit exciting but also a little scary ... when you're of a conservative, even Republican, bent. Those other teachers do such rude, but obvious things that I sometimes feel ... unwelcome in their collegial fraternity.

Yeah. Obama is in now. Can't we all just ... get along? In the spirit of bipartisanship in the post-partisan age. For the children.

 

[terraformer]

So imagine you're not a gun person, and you're going shooting for the first time, which is a bit exciting and but also a little scary. Then, other shooters start doing rude, but obvious things to make it apparent you don't belong, that they don't want you there, and that your very presence is insulting.

You still think they want anything to do with us?

This is a really important point. When gun owners stop thinking and acting like the republican party is their savior, maybe more democrats will join it's ranks. Like everything about modern party politics, guns is an issue that is used to segregate and divide we the people. Regurgitating this partisan crap and trashing liberals is a sure fire way to make sure they never see your point or agree with you.

 

[Becka]

So imagine you're not a gun person, and you're going shooting for the first time, which is a bit exciting and but also a little scary. Then, other shooters start doing rude, but obvious things to make it apparent you don't belong, that they don't want you there, and that your very presence is insulting.

You still think they want anything to do with us?

I haven't experienced what you're talking about, as I've only shot at classes or GOAL events.
However, anytime I meet someone who's into guns, or shooting, or expresses any interest when I mention my hobby, I am super excited to talk about it with them. I have talked about the laws in MA and the process you need to go through to get your gun license with almost anyone who will listen. I know for a fact that quite a few of those people have been liberal, Obama supporters.
As long as someone doesn't treat me like an idiot or a douche for being interested in guns and shooting, I don't treat them that way when i talk about it. I'd rather be polite and explain why I love the hobby, and hope I can help them understand why I feel that way, so that they may walk away interested themselves.

 

[Cato]

Exactly, which is why all the pro-gun Democrats I know won't come here.

What exactly are you referring to?

 

[theGringo]

What exactly are you referring to?

"f***ing stupid" Republicans, I think. I'm not sure, though, because I'm "f***ing stupid" ... evidently.

 

[theGringo]

I'm referring to all of the pro-gun Democrats I know they refuse to become a member of such a bigoted community.


You'll figure out the sarcasm eventually.

Things come slower to the "f***ing stupid". And bigots simply have noooo sense of humor at all.

 

[theGringo]

I've run out of funny things to say back to you.

It's OK. I wouldn't get it anyway.

 

[doobie]

Guns aren't my thing either, I just sold them all so I can retire.

 

[Skald]

Update your information. Social Security stopped paying these claims in the mid 1990s under the Clinton Administration.

Then for some reason they were still getting their Soc. Sec. checks of some sort (either Fed or State) because beginning of the month I'd be a good neighbor and drive them to the bank to cash it.

 

[law dawg]

f*** it - there's some stuff I'm conservative about and some stuff I'm liberal about. I won't carry water for either one of those damned parties. A plague on both their houses. I'll support them on certain issues and not on others, but I won't identify with either of them, because they want you to hate the other side in that it keeps them in power. f*** that noise. The bastards.

Guns are one of the issues I identify more closely with the Repubs than the Dems. There are others I identify more with the Dems.

But hey, that's what makes horse races ain't it - differences of opinion. So long as it doesn't get personal I'm all for a good, loud (preferably assisted by adult beverages), intelligent debate about whatever topic someone wants to put on the table.

Just me though.

 

[Raoul Duke]

f*** it - there's some stuff I'm conservative about and some stuff I'm liberal about. I won't carry water for either one of those damned parties. A plague on both their houses. I'll support them on certain issues and not on others, but I won't identify with either of them, because they want you to hate the other side in that it keeps them in power. f*** that noise. The bastards.

Guns are one of the issues I identify more closely with the Repubs than the Dems. There are others I identify more with the Dems.

But hey, that's what makes horse races ain't it - differences of opinion. So long as it doesn't get personal I'm all for a good, loud (preferably assisted by adult beverages), intelligent debate about whatever topic someone wants to put on the table.

Just me though.

Well said.

I too have a range of views some of which are very conservative, some of which are quite liberal. Nonetheless, I find Republicans tiresome...sorta like Democrats. I don't mind the company of people with conservative views nor do I mind some people with liberal views. But both political parties are, in my opinion, heaping piles of ideological cow crap.

Both parties aim to restrict one's freedom. That is undeniable and it is why, ultimately, I wouldn't swerve to avoid any politician on a dark road late at night.

Republicans want to regulate who you marry, who you sleep with, what you ingest and who or what you pray to....

Democrats want to regulate your ability to protect yourself and your family, your ability to resist the government, your ability to keep a fair share of your income, and decide what to eat when you go out at night....etc.

That's why both parties collectively should be forced to felch barn animals for a period of not less than the rest of their natural born lives.

So what party do I belong to?

Libertarian of course. It's the only sensible choice. Is it flawed? Yes, deeply, but it's the only party not built on the idea of controlling the masses.

 

[drgrant]

Most "gunnies" are Republicans.

Nationally speaking, though, is this really the truth?

Think about this for a minute- if this is the truth, then why is it that many house seats, for example, are occupied by blue dog dems? What you are saying might be true in the northeast, but up here a republican could pass as a democrat in some parts of the rest of the US.

Why the good Democrats try to enter the community, they're put off by the gun community, and for good reason.

That's kinda funny, considering that I run into dems, or people I think are dems (eg, IDed by bumper stickers, etc) at the ranges I go to once in awhile. Apparently they didn't get the memo that they weren't allowed to shoot guns, or didn't feel so unwelcome as to run away. Are there a**h***s that make life miserable for dem shooters? Sure... but I think you're overstating this "problem" a bit. If this animosity you speak of is so widespread, then why haven't I heard of the fistfights occurring at shotgun sports ranges and the like- where you'll often find a metric ton of democrats. I also haven't heard about too many democrats being denied training opportunities... many trainers are hard core pro gun, but do you really think they -care- what political affiliation their students are? I just think that by and large, most shooters put that stuff aside for mutual enjoyment of their rights.

I just don't see this "rampant democrat shooter abuse" you speak of... Even on NES... We might beat up their ideas quite a bit, but that's not the same.... and any person who is so tied to a political party that they "take it personally" when someone "insults the party" has other issues they need to resolve. It's about the same thing as getting your feelings hurt because someone tells you the band you like is shitty, or something.... people just need to get over themselves.

-Mike

 

[law dawg]

Well said.

I too have a range of views some of which are very conservative, some of which are quite liberal. Nonetheless, I find Republicans tiresome...sorta like Democrats. I don't mind the company of people with conservative views nor do I mind some people with liberal views. But both political parties are, in my opinion, heaping piles of ideological cow crap.

Both parties aim to restrict one's freedom. That is undeniable and it is why, ultimately, I wouldn't swerve to avoid any politician on a dark road late at night.

Republicans want to regulate who you marry, who you sleep with, what you ingest and who or what you pray to....

Democrats want to regulate your ability to protect yourself and your family, your ability to resist the government, your ability to keep a fair share of your income, and decide what to eat when you go out at night....etc.

That's why both parties collectively should be forced to felch barn animals for a period of not less than the rest of their natural born lives.

So what party do I belong to?

Libertarian of course. It's the only sensible choice. Is it flawed? Yes, deeply, but it's the only party not built on the idea of controlling the masses.

Very well said. +1

 

[MassBites]

I'm referring to all of the pro-gun Democrats I know they refuse to become a member of such a bigoted community.

I don't believe that anyone here is a bigot toward liberal/Democrats in so far as it pertains to the common interest of gun ownership. Where disagreements exist, and I wouldn't call it bigotry, is in the arena of political ideas and personal ideals.

Those who hold conservative beliefs are obviously going to disagree with those who hold liberal beliefs, and vice versa. There may be some liberals who share the same interest in gun ownership as conservatives do. But lets face it, the majority of gun owners are conservative. At least on this board. And the majority of anti-gun proponents are liberals.

Problems arise when discussions stray from the topic of guns and delve into discussions of politics or new and threatening draconian measures to further limit our Constitutional rights. Or discussions about taxes, or discussions about personal responsibility/accountability, or discussions about Socialism (which is Communism-lite) and Capitalism (which celebrates and rewards achievement). Stuff like that.

It has been my personal experience (and I've been doing it for a very long time) that when I enter into debate with a liberal or radical leftist, I can support my Conservative/Capitalist/Constitutionalist views with verifiable evidence. And I always produce that evidence.

What I receive in return from my liberal/radical leftist counterpart is anything but a thoughtful, or even minimally researched response. 99.9% of the time, what I receive is:

1) A juvenile temper tantrum.

2) Insults

3) More insults

4) Feigned obtuseness.

5) Retreat from the debate until they think it's safe to re-offer their "opinion" without a challenge to provide evidence (verifiable facts) that support their "opinion."

Without exception, I have found liberals/radical leftists to be extremely thin skinned and I suspect that's the real reason why your liberal acquaintances refuse to come here.

They have to work without a safety net. That being, they are greatly outnumbered by conservatives who can and do, wait for them to step on their cranks and then open fire.

Conservatives can't help themselves. It's their ingrained belief in personal responsibility/accountability. They will hold liberals to that same standard, and if a liberal can't hang? Well, that's when conservatives start playing with their food. They love fresh kill.