Guns and kids in the home

[06LemansC6]

Do you think that should be what happens when a child is killed accidentally with anything in or around the home that isn't locked up? For example: medicine, cleaning products, pools, second story windows, refrigerators, power tools, etc.. Or should they only be prosecuted when the accident involves a firearm?

I believe if the parent is blatantly negligent in protecting their children from harm with any of these items the same should apply.

Comparing a loaded firearm carelessly left where a child can access it, to common household items is like comparing apples and oranges.

 

[PaulD]

Do you think that should be what happens when a child is killed accidentally with anything in or around the home that isn't locked up? For example: medicine, cleaning products, pools, second story windows, refrigerators, power tools, etc.. Or should they only be prosecuted when the accident involves a firearm?

Can you not think through these various situations? It's not that difficult.

Yes, kids can get into all of those things but the immediacy of the consequences are not the same. If a kid gets hold of a loaded gun and pulls the trigger, the chances of the kid or someone else dying immediately are quite high. If a kid swallows some medicine, the kid probably won't die immediately and there is time to get some medical treatment. Personally, I made an effort to keep medicine and cleaning products out of reach of my 3yo (because, you know, I'm a shitty parent who can't control his kid ).

This same discussion has been rehashed on here a few times. Everyone on this board keeps a firearm partially in preperation for the relatively small chance that a bad guy will break into their home. However, I hear from some people here that they think there is zero chance that a well trained, young kid will grab a loaded firearm. So, they'd rather optimize for the break in situation.

Whatever.

 

[ace57]

I agree with others, I use a pistol safe kept near me. I was wary of the bio/fingerprint reader deals, heard they were unreliable.

I can get to my piece in a matter of seconds if necessary.


ace57

 

[BOBKATT]

I don't have kids, so no I do not know the extent to which a parent has to go through to prevent their kids from having an accident with these household items. I don't plan on having kids either. I give credit to, and thank , all of you who do have children and go to whatever level of safety you need to go to in order to protect your children.

Is the law that we are referring to in place to prevent child accidents?

IF so or no than I am curious as to how some of you feel about wether or not it is justified that someone should have to lock say a shotgun up while I'm in another room or while I am sleeping?

 

[dwarven1]

Just an idle thought... some friends of mine have these child-proof locks that require that you pass a magnet over a spot on the cabinet to open them - obviously there's some kind of magnetic bolt on the inside. It occurs to me that you could put these on, say, your nightstand drawer. It's a lot easier to pass a magnet over the spot than it is to hunt for a key AND insert it.

That would still meet the secure storage laws, though, wouldn't it?

I personally have no stake in this, as I don't have any kids. Just a thought experiment.

 

[M1911]

Scroll to bottom at National Safety Council 2002-2006 data http://www.nsc.org/lrs/injuriesinamerica08.aspx

Yep - the numbers look small. Makes you wonder.

Thanks for the pointer to the original data.

 

[M1911]

Is the law that we are referring to in place to prevent child accidents?

IIRC, the rationalization used by the proponents of Ch 180 of the 1998 included both protecting children and preventing criminals from getting access to firearms owned by law-abiding citizens. PLEASE NOTE: these are not my views about the law, but rather my understanding of the rationale used by the proponents of the law. I do not support the law. I prefer Florida's storage law -- you can only be charged if a child who is authorized to be in your home accesses the gun and something bad happens.

IF so or no than I am curious as to how some of you feel about wether or not it is justified that someone should have to lock say a shotgun up while I'm in another room or while I am sleeping?

I don't support the law. I'm just trying to help people understand the law and the options they have for abiding by it.

For folks who decide to disobey the law, I suggest that you consider it very carefully. Unforeseen circumstances can happen quickly that may result in emergency services inside your house. For example, you wake up from a deep sleep to the scream of the fire detector, smell smoke, and call 911. In your rush to get you and your family outside the house, you forget your gun on side table. The firemen come in, extinguish the fire, see the gun and tell the police officer who responded with them to the fire.

Or your wife is suddenly taken ill in the middle of the night. You call 911, let the police and fire folks in when they arrive. They go into the bedroom to help your wife, and see your gun on the bedside table.

Now you've just lost your LTC for good. Are either of those scenarios likely? Probably not very. Of course, neither is a home invasion. As my wife and I have passed middle age, I consider a health emergency to be a higher probability for us than a home invasion. YMMV.

How you store a gun is your choice. But please consider the potential legal ramifications while making your choice.

 

[clinotus]

Just an idle thought... some friends of mine have these child-proof locks that require that you pass a magnet over a spot on the cabinet to open them - obviously there's some kind of magnetic bolt on the inside. It occurs to me that you could put these on, say, your nightstand drawer. It's a lot easier to pass a magnet over the spot than it is to hunt for a key AND insert it.

That would still meet the secure storage laws, though, wouldn't it?

I personally have no stake in this, as I don't have any kids. Just a thought experiment.

The real factor here is no matter what locking mechanism you have in place, the curiosity of a child will generally thwart it. I was a well behaved child (really, I was ) but when left unattended I would always go through my parents stuff. To my 7 year old mind I was on a treasure hunt, old shoes that were in boxes where trinkets of gold despite everytime I opened the box it was a pair of Alligator shoes..etc...

Whats really at stake is the way you introduce firearms to your children, again as I mentioned along the lines of the the Eddie Eagle rules, and further to that how you label things in your household as off limits: Like household cleaners under the sink, not opening the front door, or the cellar door, and so on.

But as far at the child proof locks go, I've found that an observant child likely does know how to operate the lock, remember they are observation sponges. You just have to mitigate the danger with good parenting.

State wise I'm not sure if that would qualify, but the laws are so tricky as we see, even in this thread, as to direct control... some have mentioned going with the top drawer and if shtf just indicating that you had gone to the safe to retrieve the firearm. The improper storage argument generally doesnt really come into play until you have used the firearm..or a child has found the firearm..or there is a service call at you house for something and someone spots it. Up to that point its up to you to store them as you 'responsibly' interpret.


Edit: M1911, by mere minutes.

 

[BOBKATT]

Or your wife is suddenly taken ill in the middle of the night. You call 911, let the police and fire folks in when they arrive. They go into the bedroom to help your wife, and see your gun on the bedside table.

Now you've just lost your LTC for good. Are either of those scenarios likely? Probably not very. Of course, neither is a home invasion. As my wife and I have passed middle age, I consider a health emergency to be a higher probability for us than a home invasion. YMMV.

How you store a gun is your choice. But please consider the potential legal ramifications while making your choice.

I'm not saying by any means that I am disobeying the law in any way shape or form, nor will I say that I condone anyone else breaking the law. And I am not saying that your saying that I'm saying I break the law

You make good points in the above scenarios. However, In both of the above scenarios it is also possible that the gunowner heard a noise that startled him and he retrieved his gun from the safe prior to the smoke detectors going off, or maybe there was no smoke in the room so the smoke detectors sounding off made him think just incase foul play is occuring he should arm himself. Maybe he heard a noise and armed himself, then all his shuffling around is what awoke his wife and she awoke ill.

I see what your saying, and a jury in MA is very unpredictable.

 

[M1911]

However, In both of the above scenarios it is also possible that the gunowner heard a noise that startled him and he retrieved his gun from the safe prior to the smoke detectors going off, or maybe there was no smoke in the room so the smoke detectors sounding off made him think just incase foul play is occuring he should arm himself.

Maybe. Maybe not. On two occasions I've had a major adrenalin dump (heart beat racing, blood pressure above 160, hands shaking -- the whole nine yards). People aren't always cool and calm when under extreme pressure. The mind focuses on what it believes is most imperative for surviving he situation. You don't have time to think about secondary issues.

If the house was on fire, my first priority would be to get my wife out of the house. If my wife was having a medical emergency, my first priority would be to get help on the way and then give first aid. I could easily see myself forgetting to put a gun away in either of those situations because it just would not be a high priority.

I see what your saying, and a jury in MA is very unpredictable.

I disagree. I think the jury would be very predictable and you would be convicted. If police found an unsecured gun in your house it would be almost impossible to win the case. If your lawyer can not get the search thrown out, I think it would be plea-bargain time.

While I suspect that the judge would not apply anywhere near the maximum sentence, I suspect that the you would never get an LTC again. In fact, even if you did win the case, I would expect the chief to revoke your LTC on the basis of suitability.

Given my view of the relative risks and the ease of using a fast-access lock box, I keep my gun locked up. YMMV.

 

[PaulD]

I don't have kids, so no I do not know the extent to which a parent has to go through to prevent their kids from having an accident with these household items. I don't plan on having kids either. I give credit to, and thank , all of you who do have children and go to whatever level of safety you need to go to in order to protect your children.

Is the law that we are referring to in place to prevent child accidents?

IF so or no than I am curious as to how some of you feel about wether or not it is justified that someone should have to lock say a shotgun up while I'm in another room or while I am sleeping?

I should have been more clear that my rant wasn't really directed at you. It was more generalized since I've heard the arguements before.

If there are no young kids in the house, it's a whole different scenerio (ignoring any applicable laws).

 

[BOBKATT]

Maybe. Maybe not. On two occasions I've had a major adrenalin dump (heart beat racing, blood pressure above 160, hands shaking -- the whole nine yards). People aren't always cool and calm when under extreme pressure. The mind focuses on what it believes is most imperative for surviving he situation. You don't have time to think about secondary issues.

If the house was on fire, my first priority would be to get my wife out of the house. If my wife was having a medical emergency, my first priority would be to get help on the way and then give first aid. I could easily see myself forgetting to put a gun away in either of those situations because it just would not be a high priority.



I disagree. I think the jury would be very predictable and you would be convicted. If police found an unsecured gun in your house it would be almost impossible to win the case. If your lawyer can not get the search thrown out, I think it would be plea-bargain time.

While I suspect that the judge would not apply anywhere near the maximum sentence, I suspect that the you would never get an LTC again. In fact, even if you did win the case, I would expect the chief to revoke your LTC on the basis of suitability.

Given my view of the relative risks and the ease of using a fast-access lock box, I keep my gun locked up. YMMV.

So lets say someone heard a loud noise in the next room over. The person pops open the safe, pulls his shotgun out, and slowly walks down the hall to see what it was. Upon approaching the room he smells smoke and realizes that the room is fully engulfed.

He then runs back to the room, adrenaline pumping, not thinking clearly, puts the shotgun down, grabs his wife and they run out of the room and down the stairs to escape.

So what you are saying is that in MA he will be charged with a crime for not locking up the shotgun back in the safe before he ran out of the house with his wife?

 

[BOBKATT]

If there are no young kids in the house, it's a whole different scenerio (ignoring any applicable laws).

I guess this is what I'm getting at. I have a lot of respect for people with kids and I want their kids to be safe. But in MA a lot of rediculous laws are created "for the children", and for those of us who don't have kids it kinda sucks to be quite blunt about it, because it affects us too. And none of the blame should be put on anyone but the liberal loons and the legislators because not all parents think these laws are just.

I have a friend who has a gun that he likes to keep on the nightstand, he locks it in the safe when he leaves the house, and takes it out to carry on his person when he gets home until he goes to sleep. There is nothing wrong with this. And he is going out of his way to prevent a crook from breaking in during the day and aquiring a loaded gun. That to me is just plain sense. But this is illegal, and it has a lot to do with the children. And he has none.

 

[M1911]

So lets say someone heard a loud noise in the next room over. The person pops open the safe, pulls his shotgun out, and slowly walks down the hall to see what it was. Upon approaching the room he smells smoke and realizes that the room is fully engulfed.

He then runs back to the room, adrenaline pumping, not thinking clearly, puts the shotgun down, grabs his wife and they run out of the room and down the stairs to escape.

So what you are saying is that in MA he will be charged with a crime for not locking up the shotgun back in the safe before he ran out of the house with his wife?

Is leaving the shotgun unsecured in bedroom in accordance with MGL Ch 140 S131L?

It shall be unlawful to store or keep any firearm, rifle or shotgun including, but not limited to, large capacity weapons, or machine gun in any place unless such weapon is secured in a locked container or equipped with a tamper-resistant mechanical lock or other safety device, properly engaged so as to render such weapon inoperable by any person other than the owner or other lawfully authorized user. For purposes of this section, such weapon shall not be deemed stored or kept if carried by or under the control of the owner or other lawfully authorized user.

The shotgun sitting in the bedroom is unsecured. Since you are outside of the house it is certainly not under your direct control either. So it seems to me that situation would be a clear violation of the law.

Your chief of police might believe your story that the gun was locked up, you retrieved it, left it in the bedroom in the confusion, and give you a break. Or he might believe your story and not give you a break. Or he might not believe your story -- he thinks the shotgun was never locked up in the first place. Your lawyer might be able to convince the judge or jury of the exigent circumstances. But they might not believe you either. Or they may feel that even in the circumstances that you should have retained control of the shotgun.

Are you willing to roll the dice that way? I'm not. The Mrs. and I have lived in the same town for 16 years. In that time there have been several house fires. There haven't been any home invasions. I'm not saying that such a home invasion could not happen. I'm just looking at the relative probabilities and the fact that I can use a quick access safe and be in compliance with the law.

 

[M1911]

I have a friend who has a gun that he likes to keep on the nightstand, he locks it in the safe when he leaves the house, and takes it out to carry on his person when he gets home until he goes to sleep. There is nothing wrong with this. And he is going out of his way to prevent a crook from breaking in during the day and aquiring a loaded gun. That to me is just plain sense. But this is illegal, and it has a lot to do with the children. And he has none.

Laws are not about right and wrong. MA laws in general and MA gun laws in particular are nonsensical. That, and $3.50, will get you a latte. Ignore them at your peril.

 

[PaulD]

I guess this is what I'm getting at. I have a lot of respect for people with kids and I want their kids to be safe. But in MA a lot of rediculous laws are created "for the children", and for those of us who don't have kids it kinda sucks to be quite blunt about it, because it affects us too. And none of the blame should be put on anyone but the liberal loons and the legislators because not all parents think these laws are just.

I have a friend who has a gun that he likes to keep on the nightstand, he locks it in the safe when he leaves the house, and takes it out to carry on his person when he gets home until he goes to sleep. There is nothing wrong with this. And he is going out of his way to prevent a crook from breaking in during the day and aquiring a loaded gun. That to me is just plain sense. But this is illegal, and it has a lot to do with the children. And he has none.

We agree I think.

The government always panders to the lowest common denominator.

 

[BOBKATT]

Laws are not about right and wrong. MA laws in general and MA gun laws in particular are nonsensical. That, and $3.50, will get you a latte. Ignore them at your peril.

It is time for an exodus.

 

[M1911]

It is time for an exodus.

Or put your handgun in a lockbox next your bed. Cheaper than moving

 

[BOBKATT]

Or put your handgun in a lockbox next your bed. Cheaper than moving

My life and my freedom cost more than relocating.

 

[TheIglu]

Interesting thread here.

I, for me and my wife-TB's protection, have my Sig locked in the bedroom and I just was given an Ithaca Model 27 from my grandfather sitting in the closet. Ammo is in a drawer for the Ithaca bedside, buckshot. I'd probably reach for the Sig first as it's ready with hollowpoints.

 

[ateamrob]

How do I protect my family in an emergency if my gun is in a safe at night non the less equiped with a gun lock. I could get an alarm and hope the police arrive in time to collect our bodies???? Looking for the best, safe and easiest way to get to my gun if needed. Kids are preschoolers.
Thanx for any advise...Oh moving is not an option

You dont.... You will die or be beaten if your gun is locked up and the Cops wont be anywhere close to you when you need them. Its obvious you will never be able to get to your weapon in time if its locked in a safe. You probobly wont even be able to get to it if its not locked up however your chances are greater. Simple fact of todays society. MA law does not care about you or your family from a home protection standpoint. If they did the laws would reflect that. They care about protecting the criminal after they beat you, rob you or kill you. F**K MA laws about keeping it locked up and do as you please.... The criminals certainly do. Its your house and your family and you only have one of them.
This is merely all my opinion however I would rather be in jail with a family that is alive than not be in jail with a family that is dead.....

again this is my 2 cents and nothing more....

now as far as having children in the home I believe teaching them safety with firearms and basic "dos and donts" and also making sure the gun that is going to be used for protection is NOWHERE near where any child or kid can get their hands on it and make sure its secured and locked away when your not home. Or on your person...

 

[theGringo]

Do you think that should be what happens when a child is killed accidentally with anything in or around the home that isn't locked up? For example: medicine, cleaning products, pools, second story windows, refrigerators, power tools, etc.. Or should they only be prosecuted when the accident involves a firearm?

Ask Eric Clapton. He wrote a song about it.

 

[theGringo]

Comparing a loaded firearm carelessly left where a child can access it, to common household items is like comparing apples and oranges.

A valid comparison, if oranges can kill you too.

 

[pdm]

A valid comparison, if oranges can kill you too.

Does this mean I need to stop relabeling bleach as juice?

 

[scooter]

Ask the doc "how many people and or kids die from the pediatrician not diagnosing the problem properly?"My ten year old watches me clean my guns and the other day I asked if he wanted to help and he did.Educate them and teach them to respect them.

 

[kiver]

Educate them and teach them to respect them.

and I will...but then again I have told her a thousand times not to hit her brother, yet she still does. I have told my 1 yo not to chew on this computer cable yet he still does ( As I tell him no right now)At this age they can not be trusted even if gun safty is beaten into thier little heads. Their sense of reasoning is just not yet developed. I do appriciate this advice and I believe everyone may they be pro gun or anti gun needs to teach their children about guns. I am already talking to them reguarding gun saftey as I know the schools, Dr etc would prefer that we all just ignore the issue and make it a zero tolerance policy, and punish them and their parents as if they are inhumane for even discussing guns...My personal opinion and that is all it is CHILDREN=GUN SAFES I could never live with myself if my child died of my negligence

 

[dwarven1]

and I will...but then again I have told her a thousand times not to hit her brother, yet she still does. I have told my 1 yo not to chew on this computer cable yet he still does ( As I tell him no right now)At this age they can not be trusted even if gun safty is beaten into thier little heads. Their sense of reasoning is just not yet developed.

Well said - yes, you can teach them but some kids don't always listen. Which you seem to grasp. Well done, Sir - sounds like you know your kids well.

 

[vellnueve]

The risk of a box failure is why I have TWO within arms reach.

 

[BOBKATT]

The risk of a box failure is why I have TWO within arms reach.

STAY ON TOPIC

 

[vellnueve]

STAY ON TOPIC

It IS on topic. Safes are used to prevent unauthorized access of firearms to kids. Having two is an easy way of balancing that need to restrict access with reliability in case of emergency.

Discussing the merits of the laws like you were doing is a seperate discussion. This is not.