Guns allowed in preschool/kindergarten?

[vellnueve]

It certainly covers private religious primary, secondary schools as well as universities. The average church-run religious ed class is not really school, IMHO, but there is a bit of a gray area there.

 

[Mach]

IMO

The law is fairly specific.

Elementary School, Secondary School, University.

Private Kindergarten is part of private elementary school.

Pre-school, church school, small arms school, cooking school or any other school that is not part of an elementary school, high school or university is not prohibited.

If any of those are on a prohibited school property, then it's illegal.

I just don't see any gray area here.

Now lets talk about home schooling.....That is considered a private elementary / high school......oh no....but.....

 

[vellnueve]

The gray area is the officer's discretion, as always.

 

[Coyote33]

It would be legal in the circumstance you described. Pre-school inside of a church.

If the pre-school was on the "grounds" of an elementary school it would be a no-go.

Kindergarten is generally part of the elementary school and would be a no-go. I would also say a private kindergarten would be a no-go.

Seconded.

This is a PRE - school, inside a private-property church.

I just wouldn't go getting other parents all antsy, if I were him (keep it in your pants).

 

[Mach]

I don't think 'gray area' includes a cop's ignorance of the law. Anybody can use the word 'school' for anything which is why the law defines what schools are prohibited areas.

 

[GSG]

Does this govern religious schools? For example, you go to church/synagogue and there is CCD/hebrew school there. Can you carry?

I don't think that the law applies to relious schooling only (like you mentioned), but we have no case law on it.

I just don't see any gray area here.

Well that makes one of us. I posted this because it does seem very gray to me, as evidenced in this thread.

 

[Loyalist]

Our kids attend pre-K at a private catholic school in MA and I was thinking of writing a letter to the school's principal to request their expressed written permission for me to be able to carry concealed on their school grounds (when I drop off/pick up the kids from school, for instance). I don't expect them to grant me this request but I'd like to try anyway.

Has anyone written such a letter? What are the kinds of things you would mention in the letter? And what guidance would you give the school for content to put in their permission letter for you to carry concealed?

 

[GSG]

Our kids attend pre-K at a private catholic school in MA and I was thinking of writing a letter to the school's principal to request their expressed written permission for me to be able to carry concealed on their school grounds (when I drop off/pick up the kids from school, for instance). I don't expect them to grant me this request but I'd like to try anyway.

Has anyone written such a letter? What are the kinds of things you would mention in the letter? And what guidance would you give the school for content to put in their permission letter for you to carry concealed?

I've never heard of anyone getting permission. And keep in mind, in today's day and age, there's a chance that your kids might be asked to leave if you write a letter saying you carry a gun and want to at their school too. I have no advice for the letter, but keep in mind that MGL 269-10j doesn't apply if the gun is lawfully secured in the vehicle before entering school grounds, and not on your person.

 

[Loyalist]

And keep in mind, in today's day and age, there's a chance that your kids might be asked to leave if you write a letter saying you carry a gun and want to at their school too.

Has anyone heard of this happening?

I have no advice for the letter, but keep in mind that MGL 269-10j doesn't apply if the gun is lawfully secured in the vehicle before entering school grounds, and not on your person.

So I can park my car in the parking lot on school grounds, put a trigger lock on my handgun and lock it in the truck and I'm complying with MGL 269-10j?

 

[vellnueve]

No, because the very act of handling the firearm to put a lock on it and placing it in the truck is a violation.

 

[steveyc272]

And keep in mind, in today's day and age, there's a chance that your kids might be asked to leave if you write a letter saying you carry a gun and want to at their school too.

The chance of this happening is tantamount to the chance of obtaining permission - Slim to none.

 

[Kevlar]

So I can park my car in the parking lot on school grounds, put a trigger lock on my handgun and lock it in the truck and I'm complying with MGL 269-10j?

No, because as vellnueve alluded to, it would need to be legally stored (unloaded, and in a locked case or in the trunk) BEFORE entering school property.

BTW, a trigger lock is irrelevant in regards to storage (of a hangun or large capacity rifle/shotgun) in a vehicle.

 

[GSG]

Has anyone heard of this happening?

Never at a school. But see what I posted below.

So I can park my car in the parking lot on school grounds, put a trigger lock on my handgun and lock it in the truck and I'm complying with MGL 269-10j?

As the others have said, the answer is no. MGL 269-10j says:

(j) Whoever, not being a law enforcement officer, and notwithstanding any license obtained by him under the provisions of chapter one hundred and forty, carries on his person a firearm as hereinafter defined, loaded or unloaded or other dangerous weapon in any building or on the grounds of any elementary or secondary school, college or university without the written authorization of the board or officer in charge of such elementary or secondary school, college or university shall be punished by a fine of not more than one thousand dollars or by imprisonment for not more than one year, or both. For the purpose of this paragraph, “firearm” shall mean any pistol, revolver, rifle or smoothbore arm from which a shot, bullet or pellet can be discharged by whatever means.

Any officer in charge of an elementary or secondary school, college or university or any faculty member or administrative officer of an elementary or secondary school, college or university failing to report violations of this paragraph shall be guilty of a misdemeanor and punished by a fine of not more than five hundred dollars.

This makes it illegal to have the gun on your person while on school grounds or in school buildings. It would be legal to stop outside of the school property, lawfully secure the gun in the car, then proceed onto the school property.

But, and this is a big "but," I doubt there are many cops who know or care about the "on your person" part of MGL 269-10j, since what most cops and gun owners are told is "No guns in schools." So basically, even if the gun were legally stored, you could easily face arrest and revocation of your LTC if someone found out about it and the cops were called.

The chance of this happening is tantamount to the chance of obtaining permission - Slim to none.

With all of the recent school shootings, the political climate WRT firearms in Mass. and the stance of most relisious groups on firearms, it wouldn't surprise me at all if something like that were to happen, especially if he wasn't well known to the school. I recently read about a cop who was basically forced out of his church when the pastor found out that he carried there, and that was in a free state, and not even in a school.

 

[theGringo]

As the others have said, the answer is no. MGL 269-10j says:

This makes it illegal to have the gun on your person while on school grounds or in school buildings. It would be legal to stop outside of the school property, lawfully secure the gun in the car, then proceed onto the school property.

But, and this is a big "but," I doubt there are many cops who know or care about the "on your person" part of MGL 269-10j, since what most cops and gun owners are told is "No guns in schools." So basically, even if the gun were legally stored, you could easily face arrest and revocation of your LTC if someone found out about it and the cops were called.

So once again we get back to the "understanding" that, yes, it's legal, but the law will not likely be enforced as written. I'd still go with the letter of the law.

 

[Coyote33]

Exactly. Most of these laws are for bad people, as determined by the police (however vague that may be). Most people here on NES interpret to the letter of the law where most MA residents and police interpret the intent of the law with the implied interpretation that if you keep your nose clean nobody will bother you. It is the fringe cases and grey areas which cause the ripples.

 

[GSG]

So once again we get back to the "understanding" that, yes, it's legal, but the law will not likely be enforced as written. I'd still go with the letter of the law.

I'm young, single, with no mortgage to pay and copies of the gun laws in my trunk. I'll gladly spend an hour on the side of the road in handcuffs explaining to the cops that what I'm doing is legal, and fight it in court if I must.

It is the fringe cases and grey areas which cause the ripples.

Well, that and people's feelings.