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Gun Stores Can Open

csobrien

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And I would think Comm2A would be as well.

I don’t know enough about the system to know if that’s even possible. It’s just that, after all this, people still aren’t able to freely keep and bear arms because of regular old “common sense gun control.”
 

Dadstoys

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I'm curious myself about what inventory looks like.
I know I had spoken to one guy who was telling me just before the total shut down that the distributors had done into full rape mode on prices.
 
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Not sure for other than Gun shops making the point that they could open, how it was even worth it to them given the harsh rules that needed to be followed.....
Well, 4 per hour (or more if multiple per buyer), times 8 hours is 32 (or more) sales. I am guessing a lot of that is just moving through things that were already purchased, to get them into their rightful owners' hands. So 32 sales isn't bad for a small Mom&Pop shop. However, as Martin Luther King, Jr. said "A right delayed is a right denied."; and there is no doubt this is a right delayed. First, it was delayed until today, then there were delays for many buyers, and finally, the infringement is tantamount to a figurative "delay of the system" overall.
 

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Well, 4 per hour (or more if multiple per buyer), times 8 hours is 32 (or more) sales. I am guessing a lot of that is just moving through things that were already purchased, to get them into their rightful owners' hands. So 32 sales isn't bad for a small Mom&Pop shop. However, as Martin Luther King, Jr. said "A right delayed is a right denied."; and there is no doubt this is a right delayed. First, it was delayed until today, then there were delays for many buyers, and finally, the infringement is tantamount to a figurative "delay of the system" overall.
OK 👍
 
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Would MA be able to cause delays in the NICS check? And if so, how?
I don't think so, not unless there's some law on the books that says a transfer can't be completed unless there's a definitive reply from NICS that the buyer is all set or has been denied. At most NICS can do a 3 day wait, but so long as there isn't a denial, the transfer can be completed after the 3 days.
 

drgrant

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Would MA be able to cause delays in the NICS check? And if so, how?

Not a chance, the feds run NICS, unless they inserted some weird bullshit into MIRCS to limit dealers, they couldn't do it. And they ain't going to pay for someone to re-code all that shit into mircs with the budget they don't have. That whole system is run on a shoestring. (instead of fixing the fingerprint reader issue years ago, they just threw them away, that should tell you something. ) The only changes they made to the system was to change the front end of it
when MIRCS became mandatory, and all that really was, was changing one page on a webserver.

I can think of a way long term MA could cause us serious problems but without elaborating too much, it would cost them a lot of money to do
it. and they have proven they don't like to pay for gun control. Our asses are only saved in this state largely because MA skinflints on
gun control because they have to. (EOPS/CJIS has a very limited budget- and I bet most of it goes to support LE operations, not gun garbage. )
 
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I think it was probably due to volume of transactions but part of me thinks the state is throttling down the background checks on purpose
I may be wrong, but Mass doesn't have a state background check. The prerequisite is a buyer must have an LTC or FID to buy and so long as they have that, the only thing that would cause a delay is NICS, which I wouldn't be surprised if all federal background checks are being delayed 3 days to work through the backlog caused by the massive volume.

Unless the national state of emergency Trump ordered gives the FBI authority to delay background checks for longer than the 3 days. IDK, I'd have to look into that, but bottom line is the state of Mass can't do jack to delay a transfer.
 

drgrant

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Not sure for other than Gun shops making the point that they could open, how it was even worth it to them given the harsh rules that needed to be followed.....

Not sure if serious, the issue of having guns trapped at dealers was damaging to the dealers by itself. That causes serious customer whining even if it's not
the shop's fault. Not to mention 90% of the dealers in MA are small enough that they'll still at least be able to crank out some revenue even with the
trash in place. Places like FS, MFS, though are going to suffer inordinately because they rely on volume. It definitely kills the % of sales where lookie loos
actually stroll in and buy something.

If you asked a shop owner "hey you have two choices you can operate at 50% revenue or 0% revenue" even though the former sucks, they're still usually going to pick that. I am betting as pent up 'rona demand bleeds down though some of them are going to do stuff like limit hours, etc.

ETA: One upshot though is despite the appointment BS, when people get an appointment they are more likely to buy more shit while they're
in the shop, because there is no "If I forget something ill just stroll back over here next week" type convenience going on. That might compensate for
some of the lost casual sales of (whatever) because the people buying new guns will buy more ammo (dep on availability) and other accessories at the
same time.
 
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I can think of a way long term MA could cause us serious problems but without elaborating too much, it would cost them a lot of money to do
it.
and they have proven they don't like to pay for gun control. Our asses are only saved in this state largely because MA skinflints on
gun control because they have to. (EOPS/CJIS has a very limited budget- and I bet most of it goes to support LE operations, not gun garbage. )
State background check? RI has them and we're getting fugged royal with the 30 day wait and it's solely because we have a law on the books that mandates a 7 day wait period, but that got extended by executive fiat to 30 days due to volume. NY has a 30 day rule on the books, but IDK if it's tied to a state background check.
 

drgrant

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I may be wrong, but Mass doesn't have a state background check.

MIRCS is "sort of" a state BG check in the sense that if someones license gets vaporized/suspended by a PD for (whatever) reason it will flag the buyer
and won't allow a transfer. The hilarious thing is I have heard fun stories of people who got their LTC somehow by some miracle, while still being
federally prohibited because of something dumb that happened in tinbuck 3 that NICS "remembers" but somehow the PD or CJIS didn't see it when
they applied for their license... [laugh]
 

CrackPot

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Other than @drgrant adding some sanity, the level of misinformation in this thread is outstanding.

Federal and state law require that all transactions occur at your place of business (or gun show). This means at the ADDRESS of your business as has been qualified by the ATF, so in the parking lot is fine. No home delivery. No creative solutions. At your place of business.

Background checks are not run by the state or under any type of state control (in MA). FFLs in MA use the federal NICS which is run by the FBI. The FBI does not care about whatever political crap is going on at the state level. They care about getting data entered and making a determination whether the individual can purchase a gun or not.

NICS checks first result in one of two things, an immediate response or "researching". The immediate response is most common. It means the computer was able to make the determination. Researching means the computer could not make a determination and it requires human involvement. Most of the cases of researching the human can quickly make the determination and a response comes back. If the humans are busy or lazy, then they will eventually time out (about 20 minutes it seems). Timeouts = delays. So whether because the human could not quickly determine or because they never looked, delays happen.

Delays happen because you have something in your past that the computer can't resolve. It may require the human knowing what something means or it may require contacting the court in the state in question to find out if your CWOF was ultimately dismissed. It might be because someone has a name close to yours and is a "BAD PERSON". A human might be able to figure out that the 59 year old white male felon living in Idaho with the same name is not the same person as you, a 23 year old african american female when the computer could not.

Delays happen. Right now more often than previously because the number of humans working is lower than normal (COVID) and the number of background checks being run is higher than normal (COVID). This results in lots of timeouts. It may also result in lots of "I will just hit delay and punt this because it will take actual work to figure out"

The state is not f*cking with background checks.

The state, throughout this entire process, has not messed with MIRCS. MIRCS barely works. Messing with it would break it. Then cops would not be able to buy their guns.
 

drgrant

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I'm curious myself about what inventory looks like.
I know I had spoken to one guy who was telling me just before the total shut down that the distributors had done into full rape mode on prices.

Availability of some stuff is a bigger problem than prices. Things like "home defense shotguns" are still seemingly in short
supply. I think some people listened to Joe Biden too much years ago or something. "buy a shotgun" etc.

The ammo prices getting jacked was a double gut punch kidney shot. The wholesale market floor prices were announced 2-3 weeks before all this
shit started to kick off, and then when RonaScare quickly siphoned off the existing resevoir of cheap ammo at dealers/ammo sellers, that's when the second
punch hit. One of the non-MA dealers I use is still telling me his distributors are being a pain in the ass about sending him ammo. 9mm and 380 are kind of tight right now but slowly improving. He has to ration things like 9mm, 380, 762 x 39, otherwise he would get cleaned out in 7 days. (and before anyone says anything, just because target sports has like 2 brands of 9mm in stock doesn't mean that the supply chain is healthy. )

Much of the full retard buying has stopped. For example all the scaredy retards that dont understand guns running out and grabbing boxes of birdshot off the
shelf, that shit probably stopped a couple weeks ago, thank god. (this was a larger problem in free-er states where anyone can buy ammo). I think some of
these morons realized they were morons, and/or just ran out of money. There are still first timers walking through the doors but not like there were at the
beginning. The new buyers that are coming through right now are more like "I had experience with guns before and now have suddenly decided I want one" because they thought about it rationally over a few weeks, as opposed to "I WANNA GUN CUZ CORONA PANIC DANGER WHY CANT I HAVE MY GUN NOW EVEN THO I GOT DELAYED" etc.
 
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Availability of some stuff is a bigger problem than prices. Things like "home defense shotguns" are still seemingly in short
supply. I think some people listened to Joe Biden too much years ago or something. "buy a shotgun" etc.
I was talking to someone at the range yesterday about the affinity for shotguns among first time gun owners and the only reason I can think of is these ignorant and inexperienced noobs think a shotgun is super powerful and it'll vaporize anyone they have to shoot like it's a phaser from Star Trek and also they don't have to aim it because... shotgun.

A shotgun is literally the worst first gun for a first time gun owner to buy, but they buy them because they're cheap (at least the imported ones that are marketed as home defense ones are) and because their grandpa had one 50 years ago and swore that it would blow a man half in two or some other FUDD nonsense.

It also doesn't help that every guy working a gun counter recommends a shotgun to first time buyers looking for a home defense gun. I swear that it's a ploy because they know the first time the noob goes to shoot it, they're gonna fire one shell, the boom and recoil is going to scare them, and they're gonna return to the same store and sell it for half the price they paid for it and buy something else. Then the store can sell the same shotgun used for 75% what a new one costs and make more money selling the same gun twice.
 

drgrant

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It also doesn't help that every guy working a gun counter recommends a shotgun to first time buyers looking for a home defense gun. I swear that it's a ploy because they know the first time the noob goes to shoot it, they're gonna fire one shell, the boom and recoil is going to scare them, and they're gonna return to the same store and sell it for half the price they paid for it and buy something else. Then the store can sell the same shotgun used for 75% what a new one costs and make more money selling the same gun twice.

I don't think I would go this far, at least in the past when I was on both sides of the counter on the reg I haven't witnessed this much. (I've worked for 3 different shops in MA and NH over the years, intermittently as a PT helper, gun shows, etc. ) Maybe this happens in box stores or shitty places like that. Then again I'm biased because I make a point of staying away from places like that. IMHO lots of newb customers (mind you, I'm not talking full on rona panicky birdbrains in the first 2 weeks of the pandemic here) have some sense of agency and come in the store with some idea about what they want, most don't come in and go "I need something suitable for home defense but I don't know what im doing, halp". Maybe some smarter women actually ask that, but the average joe six pack who thinks they know how to shoot guns well automatically cause they're male often comes in with some pre-existing notion of what they want to buy, whether or not its actually good idea is a whole other story. (Sorry if this is a tough pill for some, but it's the truth- on average women ask way more questions about what they're buying or what to buy, how it works, etc. I mean come on, we've all done it, bought .40s, etc. )

Good shop owners/staff also try to avoid this customer dissatisfaction scenario you illustrated. Especially now where someone buying a shotgun that
didn't really want it has now taken that shotgun out of inventory and the guy who actually wants it (and will keep it) can't buy it 2 hours later.

This is also a good way to detect whether a shop sucks or not. If you see/hear employees blowing lots of smoke up backsides, stay away. There are plenty of other shops that stay away from that.
 
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I don't think I would go this far, at least in the past when I was on both sides of the counter on the reg I haven't witnessed this much. (I've worked for 3 different shops in MA and NH over the years, intermittently as a PT helper, gun shows, etc. ) Maybe this happens in box stores or shitty places like that. Then again I'm biased because I make a point of staying away from places like that. IMHO lots of newb customers (mind you, I'm not talking full on rona panicky birdbrains in the first 2 weeks of the pandemic here) have some sense of agency and come in the store with some idea about what they want, most don't come in and go "I need something suitable for home defense but I don't know what im doing, halp". Maybe some smarter women actually ask that, but the average joe six pack who thinks they know how to shoot guns well automatically cause they're male often comes in with some pre-existing notion of what they want to buy, whether or not its actually good idea is a whole other story. (Sorry if this is a tough pill for some, but it's the truth- on average women ask way more questions about what they're buying or what to buy, how it works, etc. I mean come on, we've all done it, bought .40s, etc. )

Good shop owners/staff also try to avoid this customer dissatisfaction scenario you illustrated. Especially now where someone buying a shotgun that
didn't really want it has now taken that shotgun out of inventory and the guy who actually wants it (and will keep it) can't buy it 2 hours later.

This is also a good way to detect whether a shop sucks or not. If you see/hear employees blowing lots of smoke up backsides, stay away. There are plenty of other shops that stay away from that.
The thing about women is true, even tho I can only base that on one woman that came in while I was picking something up and she had just gotten a blue card and was looking for a handgun that was small and I stuck around because I was bored and of all the questions she asked, the one I remember was when she had to ask what the difference between a revolver and a semi auto pistol was.

I kept trying to ask her how much she was willing to pay on ammo and eventually got an answer that ammo price wasn't a concern, but what noobs don't know is one they start shooting, they keep shooting.

I told the guy behind the counter to pull out and give her a Beretta tip up .22 that was in the case and IIRC, next time I went to that store it wasn't there anymore. I figure if she can practice with literally the cheapest ammo, she'd get good enough to be able to handle herself.

Men tho nothing really stands out, apart from maybe a friend of mine who I went to a gun show with once and he about jizzed himself when he saw a Mossberg Shockwave. At the time I wasn't too hot on those and thought they were stupid and tried to tell him, but couldn't cuz it was a shotgun that didn't have a buttstock.
 
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Anything stopping MA FFLs from providing home delivery? Thinking customers fill out form and make purchase online. Then FFL does BGC, prints out forms, loads up truck, and gets signature when delivers firearm
AGs counsel has gone so far as to saying that parking lot sales are illegal since the license covers the premise only. As to guns, only the premise or gun shows - but the BATFE recognizes parking lots of gun stores as premises.
 
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ISOTOX

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Not sure if serious, the issue of having guns trapped at dealers was damaging to the dealers by itself. That causes serious customer whining even if it's not
the shop's fault. Not to mention 90% of the dealers in MA are small enough that they'll still at least be able to crank out some revenue even with the
trash in place. Places like FS, MFS, though are going to suffer inordinately because they rely on volume. It definitely kills the % of sales where lookie loos
actually stroll in and buy something.

If you asked a shop owner "hey you have two choices you can operate at 50% revenue or 0% revenue" even though the former sucks, they're still usually going to pick that. I am betting as pent up 'rona demand bleeds down though some of them are going to do stuff like limit hours, etc.

ETA: One upshot though is despite the appointment BS, when people get an appointment they are more likely to buy more shit while they're
in the shop, because there is no "If I forget something ill just stroll back over here next week" type convenience going on. That might compensate for
some of the lost casual sales of (whatever) because the people buying new guns will buy more ammo (dep on availability) and other accessories at the
same time.

OK... just saying with all the rules how are they expecting to turn any kind of profit with all the dumb ass restrictions. That was all I was saying. So relax.
 

Broccoli Iglesias

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Well, 4 per hour (or more if multiple per buyer), times 8 hours is 32 (or more) sales. I am guessing a lot of that is just moving through things that were already purchased, to get them into their rightful owners' hands. So 32 sales isn't bad for a small Mom&Pop shop. However, as Martin Luther King, Jr. said "A right delayed is a right denied."; and there is no doubt this is a right delayed. First, it was delayed until today, then there were delays for many buyers, and finally, the infringement is tantamount to a figurative "delay of the system" overall.
4 per hour ... in the store.

Bring the paperwork out to people, have them fill it outside and process it all inside. Or, place a laptop outside and one inside.

Or say f*ck it and just process as many transactions as they want.

Come on, one gun store said f*ck you all and remained open, if they could do that, stores can certainly do more than 4 transactions per hour.
 
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I may be wrong, but Mass doesn't have a state background check. The prerequisite is a buyer must have an LTC or FID to buy and so long as they have that, the only thing that would cause a delay is NICS, which I wouldn't be surprised if all federal background checks are being delayed 3 days to work through the backlog caused by the massive volume.

Unless the national state of emergency Trump ordered gives the FBI authority to delay background checks for longer than the 3 days. IDK, I'd have to look into that, but bottom line is the state of Mass can't do jack to delay a transfer.
What is the "I" in NICS again?


Not sure if serious, the issue of having guns trapped at dealers was damaging to the dealers by itself. That causes serious customer whining even if it's not
the shop's fault. Not to mention 90% of the dealers in MA are small enough that they'll still at least be able to crank out some revenue even with the
trash in place. Places like FS, MFS, though are going to suffer inordinately because they rely on volume. It definitely kills the % of sales where lookie loos
actually stroll in and buy something.

If you asked a shop owner "hey you have two choices you can operate at 50% revenue or 0% revenue" even though the former sucks, they're still usually going to pick that. I am betting as pent up 'rona demand bleeds down though some of them are going to do stuff like limit hours, etc.

ETA: One upshot though is despite the appointment BS, when people get an appointment they are more likely to buy more shit while they're
in the shop, because there is no "If I forget something ill just stroll back over here next week" type convenience going on. That might compensate for
some of the lost casual sales of (whatever) because the people buying new guns will buy more ammo (dep on availability) and other accessories at the
same time.
The first part here is some of what I was trying to get across in post 127.

Your "ETA" is a good point I hadn't even thought of. Foot in the door kind of thing.
 

Mountain

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Anyone catch Faker's discussion regarding the circuit court ruling? "Well yeah, uh, we certainly will follow the uh ruling and be uh in compliance. Uh, I'll have to discuss with the State's Attorney General to see uh how we will uh make that happen." Beta-male Baker basically admitting who is running Massachusetts.
 
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Availability of some stuff is a bigger problem than prices. Things like "home defense shotguns" are still seemingly in short
supply. I think some people listened to Joe Biden too much years ago or something. "buy a shotgun" etc.
Bummer. I was just talking with a member about this. I already have a shotgun, but full size bird/trap gun. Maybe a deer barrel would do.


... they're gonna fire one shell, the boom and recoil is going to scare them, and they're gonna return to the same store and sell it for half the price they paid for it .... Then the store can sell the same shotgun used for 75% what a new one costs ...
... Especially now where someone buying a shotgun that didn't really want it has now taken that shotgun out of inventory and the guy who actually wants it (and will keep it) can't buy it 2 hours later.

Skinflint radar is ON.

Where are these, exactly?


OK... just saying with all the rules how are they expecting to turn any kind of profit with all the dumb ass restrictions. That was all I was saying. So relax.
OK 👍
 

a73elkyss

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... However, as Martin Luther King, Jr. said "A right delayed is a right denied."; and there is no doubt this is a right delayed. First, it was delayed until today, then there were delays for many buyers, and finally, the infringement is tantamount to a figurative "delay of the system" overall.

Thanks Coyote33! But (isn't there always a "But"), history has debated if MLK actually said that exact phase. Just my opinion, I think that what he truly said was something along the line of "justice too long delayed is justice denied" (more as a legal term) while he was in lockup. You can go down a serious rabbit hole all the way back to Biblical writings as to the origins.

Regardless of which "Right" or "Justice" is used, I believe both apply serve our purpose for both discussions of LGS AND Public/Private Gun Ranges opening.

Just my $0.02 worth of an Internet opinion.

Jay
 

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Anyone catch Faker's discussion regarding the circuit court ruling? "Well yeah, uh, we certainly will follow the uh ruling and be uh in compliance. Uh, I'll have to discuss with the State's Attorney General to see uh how we will uh make that happen." Beta-male Baker basically admitting who is running Massachusetts.

Good lord what a puppet.
Does he even read what he signs or do they just shove paper in front of him and he signs it like a trained monkey ?
 
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