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Gun Stores Can Open

ETA: One upshot though is despite the appointment BS, when people get an appointment they are more likely to buy more shit while they're
in the shop, because there is no "If I forget something ill just stroll back over here next week" type convenience going on. That might compensate for
some of the lost casual sales of (whatever) because the people buying new guns will buy more ammo (dep on availability) and other accessories at the
same time.
Click to expand...
Anyone who uses up a slot to "browse" is screwing someone who actually is ready to buy.
 
Hopefully it improves shops websites so we can look, see what they have, call to say that you want something, and make the offer over the phone or website so that the shop knows (say c&r or something else that you really want) then pick up when the appointment is. I say offer to buy or pay through the site so the item isn't gone at your appointment
 
Gun stores my be open, but..

My club announced re-opening for yesterday, based apparently on the the ruling. Then closed again after receiving "guidance" from the local Board of Health, who kicked it up to Mass Department of Health. Who reports of course to Baker. Who reports, apparently, to Healey. So you know where that was going to go.

The golf courses hired ML Strategies, a very high power Beacon Hill lobbying firm. Shortly thereafter, they were allowed to re-open. (See Howie Carr: Truth is in the numbers — Trump sees it even if Charlie Baker won’t)

So when Baker solemnly intones that "we must be data driven" in his daily bait-and-switch, keep this in mind. Apparently, the data that is driving decision making includes how much the affected parties can kick up before the next election.
 
Mountain said:
Anyone catch Faker's discussion regarding the circuit court ruling? "Well yeah, uh, we certainly will follow the uh ruling and be uh in compliance. Uh, I'll have to discuss with the State's Attorney General to see uh how we will uh make that happen." Beta-male Baker basically admitting who is running Massachusetts.
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Dadstoys said:
Good lord what a puppet. Does he even read what he signs or do they just shove paper in front of him and he signs it like a trained monkey ?
Click to expand...
Faker is an empty suit. I am convinced that Maura had Faker's brain removed some years back. His words and actions following the judge's order show that he has no clue what is going on around him... nor does he care.

Rob Boudrie said:
Anyone who uses up a slot to "browse" is screwing someone who actually is ready to buy.
Click to expand...
Sad, but true. And since I never buy a firearm from a dealer without seeing, handling and inspecting... I'm out for the time being because there is no way on earth I want to use a dealer's appointment slot and then not buy. The pressure to buy would be immense and I don't want that.

mcshooter said:
Hopefully it improves shops websites so we can look, see what they have, call to say that you want something, and make the offer over the phone or website so that the shop knows (say c&r or something else that you really want) then pick up when the appointment is. I say offer to buy or pay through the site so the item isn't gone at your appointment
Click to expand...
Absolutely agree. I would hope this now motivates some of the big boys in the business so post photos of their used inventory like many of the smaller dealers do.
 
T-Unit said:
I was talking to someone at the range yesterday about the affinity for shotguns among first time gun owners and the only reason I can think of is these ignorant and inexperienced noobs think a shotgun is super powerful and it'll vaporize anyone they have to shoot like it's a phaser from Star Trek and also they don't have to aim it because... shotgun.

A shotgun is literally the worst first gun for a first time gun owner to buy, but they buy them because they're cheap (at least the imported ones that are marketed as home defense ones are) and because their grandpa had one 50 years ago and swore that it would blow a man half in two or some other FUDD nonsense.

It also doesn't help that every guy working a gun counter recommends a shotgun to first time buyers looking for a home defense gun. I swear that it's a ploy because they know the first time the noob goes to shoot it, they're gonna fire one shell, the boom and recoil is going to scare them, and they're gonna return to the same store and sell it for half the price they paid for it and buy something else. Then the store can sell the same shotgun used for 75% what a new one costs and make more money selling the same gun twice.
Click to expand...
Bill Burr " it's about the spread!"
 
mcshooter said:
Hopefully it improves shops websites so we can look, see what they have, call to say that you want something, and make the offer over the phone or website so that the shop knows (say c&r or something else that you really want) then pick up when the appointment is. I say offer to buy or pay through the site so the item isn't gone at your appointment
Click to expand...
Can you do everything over the phone, including run the check, and then just sign the paperwork for it all and handle payment when you come in, to make the transaction official and complete?
 
Coyote33 said:
Can you do everything over the phone, including run the check, and then just sign the paperwork for it all and handle payment when you come in, to make the transaction official and complete?
Click to expand...

I’m probably wrong but I was under the understanding that the buyer had to personally fill out the 4473.
 
banditone said:
Not legally.
Click to expand...
Rockrivr1 said:
I’m probably wrong but I was under the understanding that the buyer had to personally fill out the 4473.
Click to expand...

I'm very interested to see which laws specify those.

I would think that until money changes hands and signatures happen, it is not really a transaction. Not saying it is one way or the other, more that I'm asking, in light of this new way of doing things (by appointment and telephone).
 
Coyote33 said:
Can you do everything over the phone, including run the check, and then just sign the paperwork for it all and handle payment when you come in, to make the transaction official and complete?
Click to expand...
Only thing about the BGC, can't fully confirm who the individual is through the phone, wouldn't want to think a person is someone who the buyer is then a PP and you got a problem
 
As to filling out 4473s remotely, I am very curious how FS is managing this. I have a customer that liked to fill out his 4473 on his computer at home. He would print it and bring it to the shop. He would not sign or date it until he got to the shop. After he signed and dated, I would fill out my part and run the background check. All straight forward and easy.

During my ATF audit in June 2019, the ATF had an opinion on this. As I have posted in previous threads, one of the things the ATF does at an audit is look at one year's worth of 4473s. They look at every line of every 4473 for one year. They find every missed box that should have been checked, every date that is slightly off, every middle initial that should have been a full middle name, etc.

They noticed I had these nicely printed 4473 unlike the rest of mine that were all hand filled out. I explained what the customer did and the fact that he COMPLETED the 4473 at the shop including signing and dating. They made it clear that this was NOT ACCEPTABLE. I asked my inspecting agent to please consult the agent in charge in Boston for an opinion and they came back with the same answer.

Filling out an electronic 4473 requires use of an approved signature pad (I could go quote the regulation, but I am feeling lazy on mother's day). You cant use your finger on a computer touch screen or ipad screen. I don't know how FS does it, but I suspect you sign the form when you come to the shop, thus completing the form in person. That is the scenario I argued for and lost. Very curious how they manage it.

Similarly I have customers coming from 1.5-2.0 hours away that always get delayed. They asked if I could take the 4473 electronically and run the background and then when they got proceed they would come to the shop. I called the ATF to get a ruling. Their response was that the person MUST be in the shop in person and able to take possession of the firearm should they get a proceed. No exceptions. I called Boston and I called Washington and got the identical response.

I am sure that one could make a decision as a dealer and take the risk to not follow the guidance above to the letter. You would be unlikely to get caught. If you did get caught you would not lose your license the first time, but just get your wrist slapped. But my one rule as a gun dealer is "DONT F*CK WITH THE ATF". There are lots of places one could chose to color in grey, but the ATF is not one of them. They have no sense of humor.

No REASONABLE way to work around the premise restriction or the requirement for the person to be there in person when you do the background check.

As to the state saying the parking lot is not your premise, bullsh*t. If my address is 123 main st, I will pull out a plot plan for that address and if the parking lot is part of that address, it is the premise. No where in state or federal code does it say BUILDING or ROOF or any such crap. It says premise

Merriam-Webster

premises also premisses plural [from its being identified in the premises of the deed]
a: a tract of land with the buildings thereon
b: a building or part of a building usually with its appurtenances (such as grounds)

This does not work for me since my premise is a suite inside of my address and the parking lot Is not part of my suite and therefore my premise. But if the gun shop is the entirety of the address, f*ck 'em.
 
CrackPot said:
As to filling out 4473s remotely, I am very curious how FS is managing this. I have a customer that liked to fill out his 4473 on his computer at home. He would print it and bring it to the shop. He would not sign or date it until he got to the shop. After he signed and dated, I would fill out my part and run the background check. All straight forward and easy.

During my ATF audit in June 2019, the ATF had an opinion on this. As I have posted in previous threads, one of the things the ATF does at an audit is look at one year's worth of 4473s. They look at every line of every 4473 for one year. They find every missed box that should have been checked, every date that is slightly off, every middle initial that should have been a full middle name, etc.

They noticed I had these nicely printed 4473 unlike the rest of mine that were all hand filled out. I explained what the customer did and the fact that he COMPLETED the 4473 at the shop including signing and dating. They made it clear that this was NOT ACCEPTABLE. I asked my inspecting agent to please consult the agent in charge in Boston for an opinion and they came back with the same answer.

Filling out an electronic 4473 requires use of an approved signature pad (I could go quote the regulation, but I am feeling lazy on mother's day). You cant use your finger on a computer touch screen or ipad screen. I don't know how FS does it, but I suspect you sign the form when you come to the shop, thus completing the form in person. That is the scenario I argued for and lost. Very curious how they manage it.

Similarly I have customers coming from 1.5-2.0 hours away that always get delayed. They asked if I could take the 4473 electronically and run the background and then when they got proceed they would come to the shop. I called the ATF to get a ruling. Their response was that the person MUST be in the shop in person and able to take possession of the firearm should they get a proceed. No exceptions. I called Boston and I called Washington and got the identical response.

I am sure that one could make a decision as a dealer and take the risk to not follow the guidance above to the letter. You would be unlikely to get caught. If you did get caught you would not lose your license the first time, but just get your wrist slapped. But my one rule as a gun dealer is "DONT F*CK WITH THE ATF". There are lots of places one could chose to color in grey, but the ATF is not one of them. They have no sense of humor.

No REASONABLE way to work around the premise restriction or the requirement for the person to be there in person when you do the background check.

As to the state saying the parking lot is not your premise, bullsh*t. If my address is 123 main st, I will pull out a plot plan for that address and if the parking lot is part of that address, it is the premise. No where in state or federal code does it say BUILDING or ROOF or any such crap. It says premise

Merriam-Webster

premises also premisses plural [from its being identified in the premises of the deed]
a: a tract of land with the buildings thereon
b: a building or part of a building usually with its appurtenances (such as grounds)

This does not work for me since my premise is a suite inside of my address and the parking lot Is not part of my suite and therefore my premise. But if the gun shop is the entirety of the address, f*ck 'em.
Click to expand...


I'm going to make a WAG that the thing that fs uses is actually somehow or another approved by the ATF like the same way those electronic background systems that some shops use are....
 
drgrant said:
I'm going to make a WAG that the thing that fs uses is actually somehow or another approved by the ATF like the same way those electronic background systems that some shops use are....
Click to expand...
Interestingly the ATF does not "approve" electronic systems for 4473s or bound books. If you call them and ask, they will give you the list of requirements that any system must satisfy, but will not grant approval to any specific piece of software. I actually just had this discussion in the last 3 months with the ATF as I was moving out of the dark ages and moving to an electronic bound book with built in 4473 capability. They were extremely unambiguous about their unwillingness to pass judgement outside of an audit on the correctness of any piece of software.

I think that per the actual regulations (versus the interpretation of the Boston office), filling out the 4473 remotely and then COMPLETING it (that is the word in the regulation) by signing and dating on premise is fine. I think what FS is doing is ok. At least when I had my audit 10 months ago, the Boston office had a problem with it and did not like by arguing the definition of the word COMPLETE (as in finish, not start or the middle bits). I have not gone through the rulings book to see if this is covered; I only checked the regulation.
 
CrackPot said:
As to filling out 4473s remotely, I am very curious how FS is managing this. I have a customer that liked to fill out his 4473 on his computer at home. He would print it and bring it to the shop. He would not sign or date it until he got to the shop. After he signed and dated, I would fill out my part and run the background check. All straight forward and easy.

During my ATF audit in June 2019, the ATF had an opinion on this. As I have posted in previous threads, one of the things the ATF does at an audit is look at one year's worth of 4473s. They look at every line of every 4473 for one year. They find every missed box that should have been checked, every date that is slightly off, every middle initial that should have been a full middle name, etc.

They noticed I had these nicely printed 4473 unlike the rest of mine that were all hand filled out. I explained what the customer did and the fact that he COMPLETED the 4473 at the shop including signing and dating. They made it clear that this was NOT ACCEPTABLE. I asked my inspecting agent to please consult the agent in charge in Boston for an opinion and they came back with the same answer.

Filling out an electronic 4473 requires use of an approved signature pad (I could go quote the regulation, but I am feeling lazy on mother's day). You cant use your finger on a computer touch screen or ipad screen. I don't know how FS does it, but I suspect you sign the form when you come to the shop, thus completing the form in person. That is the scenario I argued for and lost. Very curious how they manage it.

Similarly I have customers coming from 1.5-2.0 hours away that always get delayed. They asked if I could take the 4473 electronically and run the background and then when they got proceed they would come to the shop. I called the ATF to get a ruling. Their response was that the person MUST be in the shop in person and able to take possession of the firearm should they get a proceed. No exceptions. I called Boston and I called Washington and got the identical response.

I am sure that one could make a decision as a dealer and take the risk to not follow the guidance above to the letter. You would be unlikely to get caught. If you did get caught you would not lose your license the first time, but just get your wrist slapped. But my one rule as a gun dealer is "DONT F*CK WITH THE ATF". There are lots of places one could chose to color in grey, but the ATF is not one of them. They have no sense of humor.

No REASONABLE way to work around the premise restriction or the requirement for the person to be there in person when you do the background check.

As to the state saying the parking lot is not your premise, bullsh*t. If my address is 123 main st, I will pull out a plot plan for that address and if the parking lot is part of that address, it is the premise. No where in state or federal code does it say BUILDING or ROOF or any such crap. It says premise

Merriam-Webster

premises also premisses plural [from its being identified in the premises of the deed]
a: a tract of land with the buildings thereon
b: a building or part of a building usually with its appurtenances (such as grounds)

This does not work for me since my premise is a suite inside of my address and the parking lot Is not part of my suite and therefore my premise. But if the gun shop is the entirety of the address, f*ck 'em.
Click to expand...

you could setup a laptop for customers to fill out the 4473 when they’re in your shop and then print them out. That way they’d look the same as the customer who prints it before they come.

H&S used to have a laptop / electronic 4473 form
 
Rob Boudrie said:
As a matter of practicality, BATFE policies have the force of law.
Click to expand...
So, does that equate to the AG policies have the force of law also? If not, why not, since both are administrative offices?


T-Unit said:
Instant, but that doesn't mean there aren't laws on the books that allow NICS to delay a transfer.
Click to expand...
I knew what it stood for, but from above posts, it sounded like they were anything BUT instant.
 
Coyote33 said:
So, does that equate to the AG policies have the force of law also? If not, why not, since both are administrative offices?
Click to expand...
Untested, but they certainly have enough force to get "voluntary" obedience from gun shops.

BATFE interpretations are generally accepted as fact - for example, look the re-definition of what is a 'firearm' in the Maadi-Grifith case, or how it ruled in favor of the Atkins Accellerator and then later ruled that such a device was a full auto weapon.
 
Rob Boudrie said:
Untested, but they certainly have enough force to get "voluntary" obedience from online ammo dealers.

AG interpretations are generally accepted as fact - for example, look the re-definition of what is a 'copycat', or how it ruled in favor of banning copycats, and then later ruled that such a device was a prohibited assault weapon (or equivalent language).
Click to expand...

Changing up the entities and words of your message from one administrative entity to another. Discuss.
 
I have had a transfer sitting at the shop for a while... it was inbound before all this crap started and shops got shut down.

Im kind of waiting because I think the shops would prefer to load up their appointments with bigger sales. So I’m just trying to be patient until that initial rush dies down.
 
Coyote33 said:
Changing up the entities and words of your message from one administrative entity to another. Discuss.
Click to expand...
I'm just talking about how it really works, not NES legal theory.

- Go up against BATFE interpretation of what is and isn't legal and there is a very real chance of federal criminal charges, especially if you offer your scholarly interpretation of law instead of compliance when they say "cut that shit out".

- There has been no individual prosecutions based on the AGs edict, but it has been nearly 100% effective in taking ARs and even lowers (which are not even guns under MA law) off the retail market.

If either of the above observations of reality are inaccurate, please correct me, but no need to bore everyone with "that is not what the law says" or "there is an inconsistency here" .... we already know that.
 
CrackPot said:
Interestingly the ATF does not "approve" electronic systems for 4473s or bound books. If you call them and ask, they will give you the list of requirements that any system must satisfy, but will not grant approval to any specific piece of software. I actually just had this discussion in the last 3 months with the ATF as I was moving out of the dark ages and moving to an electronic bound book with built in 4473 capability. They were extremely unambiguous about their unwillingness to pass judgement outside of an audit on the correctness of any piece of software.

I think that per the actual regulations (versus the interpretation of the Boston office), filling out the 4473 remotely and then COMPLETING it (that is the word in the regulation) by signing and dating on premise is fine. I think what FS is doing is ok. At least when I had my audit 10 months ago, the Boston office had a problem with it and did not like by arguing the definition of the word COMPLETE (as in finish, not start or the middle bits). I have not gone through the rulings book to see if this is covered; I only checked the regulation.
Click to expand...
LuvDog said:
you could setup a laptop for customers to fill out the 4473 when they’re in your shop and then print them out. That way they’d look the same as the customer who prints it before they come.

H&S used to have a laptop / electronic 4473 form
Click to expand...
I have done the 4473 electronically at Atlantic Tactical (in the store), they print it out and you sign it. I have seen a similar setup at Cabela's (I think it was in Scarborough ME) but never purchased any guns from any Cabela's or BP. I have also seen the computers used for the 4473 at Four Seasons, but haven't purchased any guns from them since they implemented it. I think that it is fair to say that in the store doesn't offend BATFE.
 
Len-2A Training said:
I have done the 4473 electronically at Atlantic Tactical (in the store), they print it out and you sign it. I have seen a similar setup at Cabela's (I think it was in Scarborough ME) but never purchased any guns from any Cabela's or BP. I have also seen the computers used for the 4473 at Four Seasons, but haven't purchased any guns from them since they implemented it. I think that it is fair to say that in the store doesn't offend BATFE.
Click to expand...
Agreed. In store works. They either print and you sign or you sign using an approved signature pad (uses electronic pen, not finger). Filling out while not in the store I was clearly told by my inspector and confirmed by head of Boston ATF was a no-no. But getting "caught" is unlikely.
 
CrackPot said:
Agreed. In store works. They either print and you sign or you sign using an approved signature pad (uses electronic pen, not finger). Filling out while not in the store I was clearly told by my inspector and confirmed by head of Boston ATF was a no-no. But getting "caught" is unlikely.
Click to expand...

At four seasons, they print it out and you sign it.
 

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