hello,I’m going to be looking for a safe.curious what type and prices,I would like to get one that could be easily accessible by a family member in short time,JUST INCASE
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Gun safes??
- Thread starter ScottD6932
- Start date
It depends... what's your primary reason for the safe?
Is it to meet the storage requirement in MA?
Is it to protect from kids getting access?
Is it to protect from theft?
Is it to protect from fire?
The price goes up for each requirement.
Is it to meet the storage requirement in MA?
Is it to protect from kids getting access?
Is it to protect from theft?
Is it to protect from fire?
The price goes up for each requirement.
Most commercially available safes will fulfill a few of the above attributes but not all, unless you really invest in something. If you spend $300 on something that weighs 200lbs, you can probably get something reasonably adequate. Keep in mind though that most people with time and tools can get into all but the most expensive safes.
BTSDOG
NES Member
and does the family member have an LTC if your in MA. ?
Rockrivr1
NES Member
Just remember when buying a safe you never buy it for how many firearms you have now You buy it with how many firearms your going to have over the next several years. You don't want the safe to be undersized from the start.
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From my earlier posts on safes:
The issue with Liberty and all other gun safes is that they have a limited TL (tool resistance) rating; you don't usually see a TL rating on residential gun safes, only a RSC (Residential Security Container). They offer limited resistance against a tool attack (attempted burglary/robbery).
Safes that are certified as burglary-resistant bear the metal label of Underwriters Laboratories Inc.
The UL’s rigorous testing is conducted by burglary experts using a variety of devices, including diamond grinding wheels, high-speed drills with pressure-applying devices, carbide-tip drills, and hand tools such as hammers and chisels. The tests are conducted under ideal laboratory conditions, unlike those a real burglar usually encounters. Security experts say it could take a typical burglar as much as three or four times longer to crack a UL-tested safe. Thus, the UL rating represents the minimum protection a safe is certified to provide.
Underwriters Laboratories uses 10 classifications or ratings for burglary-resistant safes. They are, in increasing order of protection: TL-15; Deposit Safe; TL-30; TRTL-30; TL-15X6; TL-30X6; TRTL-15X6; TRTL-30 X6; TRTL-60X6; TXTL-60X6. Each letter and number of the rating code represents a different aspect of security that the safe provides.
Burglar’s tools. TL means a safe is tool-resistant, TR means it’s torch-resistant, TRTL indicates that it’s tool- and torch-resistant, and TXTL stands for torch-, tool-, and explosives-resistant.
The highest rating is the TXTL safe, which is rated against an attack using explosives. Very few safe manufacturers made these and I believe only one manufacturer still makes them. If you have to have the ultimate in security (short of buying a bank vault from Diebold), you'll buy a Chubb. You'll also pay out the ass for it.
Extent of resistance. The numbers 15, 30, and 60 represent the number of minutes a safe will withstand a series of attacks. The longer a safe can resist a break-in, the more likely it is that burglars will flee and that police or security guards will arrive before any jewelry is stolen.
Sides of a Safe. X6 means a safe provides equal protection on all six sides (including top and bottom). When X6 isn’t listed, it means the safe provides protection only on its front face and door.
Thus, a TRTL-30X6 UL rating means a safe is certified to resist entry from torch and tools on all six sides for a half-hour. A TL-15 rating means a safe can resist physical attack from tools to its front face or door for 15 minutes. TXTL safes do not have a numerical rating.
For RSC rated safes, Browning is a good safe, as is any safe made by Amsec. Liberty Safes are good against fire and the average burglar. The higher end safes made by Liberty Safe (Lincoln, National, Presidential) have thicker bodies, as do their cousins from the National Safe Company (which was purchased a few years back by Liberty Safe Company). If you want a commercial safe that is rated for TRTL-x, you can get one that is used and reconditioned at a reasonable price and comparable to what you would pay for a residential gun safe.
Look at getting a used safe. Do you need a safe for long guns or handguns? There are number of safe dealers that recondition safes and offer them at competitive prices. Used jewelry safes are a good buy and offer just as good, if not better protection than RSC rated safes and, depending on their interior height, can be configured to fit a rifle or shotgun.
For those who want to move into commercially rated safes, I recommend Lacka Safe in NYC. They have a fairly large inventory of used safes that are well suited for use for firearm storage. Caveat emptor: older commercial safes don't offer as good fire protection as new commercial safes and vaults. Older safes and vaults have concrete or gunnite as the insulation which offers fair to good protection against a tool attack, although little protection against an intense fire. Paper burns at 451 degrees F, which all commercial safes will provide some protection against for a period of time. Most AMSEC safes, and safes made by John Tann, ISM, Kaso, Mosler, and Diebold will provide more than sufficient protection against fire and burglar tool attacks. Chubb is top of the line, although for all practical purposes, is too expensive for most people.
On the other hand, I wouldn't count out safes with RSC ratings, especially safes that have walls that are measured in terms of inches or fractions of inches of steel rather than gauged steel. Not all RSC rated safes are equal, so you have to look closely at the numbers. For those who have high value collections or irreplaceable firearms, I recommend spending time shopping and, if necessary, spending more money on a TL or TRTL rated safe. You do have to be careful as older commercial safes relied on concrete (often powdered) to provide heft and insulation against a fire. These got to be quite hot and didn't protect the contents from getting scorched. Newer safes have composite materials or more advanced concrete admixtures that provide insulation and protection against drill and tool attacks.
The issue with Liberty and all other gun safes is that they have a limited TL (tool resistance) rating; you don't usually see a TL rating on residential gun safes, only a RSC (Residential Security Container). They offer limited resistance against a tool attack (attempted burglary/robbery).
Safes that are certified as burglary-resistant bear the metal label of Underwriters Laboratories Inc.
The UL’s rigorous testing is conducted by burglary experts using a variety of devices, including diamond grinding wheels, high-speed drills with pressure-applying devices, carbide-tip drills, and hand tools such as hammers and chisels. The tests are conducted under ideal laboratory conditions, unlike those a real burglar usually encounters. Security experts say it could take a typical burglar as much as three or four times longer to crack a UL-tested safe. Thus, the UL rating represents the minimum protection a safe is certified to provide.
Underwriters Laboratories uses 10 classifications or ratings for burglary-resistant safes. They are, in increasing order of protection: TL-15; Deposit Safe; TL-30; TRTL-30; TL-15X6; TL-30X6; TRTL-15X6; TRTL-30 X6; TRTL-60X6; TXTL-60X6. Each letter and number of the rating code represents a different aspect of security that the safe provides.
Burglar’s tools. TL means a safe is tool-resistant, TR means it’s torch-resistant, TRTL indicates that it’s tool- and torch-resistant, and TXTL stands for torch-, tool-, and explosives-resistant.
The highest rating is the TXTL safe, which is rated against an attack using explosives. Very few safe manufacturers made these and I believe only one manufacturer still makes them. If you have to have the ultimate in security (short of buying a bank vault from Diebold), you'll buy a Chubb. You'll also pay out the ass for it.
Extent of resistance. The numbers 15, 30, and 60 represent the number of minutes a safe will withstand a series of attacks. The longer a safe can resist a break-in, the more likely it is that burglars will flee and that police or security guards will arrive before any jewelry is stolen.
Sides of a Safe. X6 means a safe provides equal protection on all six sides (including top and bottom). When X6 isn’t listed, it means the safe provides protection only on its front face and door.
Thus, a TRTL-30X6 UL rating means a safe is certified to resist entry from torch and tools on all six sides for a half-hour. A TL-15 rating means a safe can resist physical attack from tools to its front face or door for 15 minutes. TXTL safes do not have a numerical rating.
For RSC rated safes, Browning is a good safe, as is any safe made by Amsec. Liberty Safes are good against fire and the average burglar. The higher end safes made by Liberty Safe (Lincoln, National, Presidential) have thicker bodies, as do their cousins from the National Safe Company (which was purchased a few years back by Liberty Safe Company). If you want a commercial safe that is rated for TRTL-x, you can get one that is used and reconditioned at a reasonable price and comparable to what you would pay for a residential gun safe.
Look at getting a used safe. Do you need a safe for long guns or handguns? There are number of safe dealers that recondition safes and offer them at competitive prices. Used jewelry safes are a good buy and offer just as good, if not better protection than RSC rated safes and, depending on their interior height, can be configured to fit a rifle or shotgun.
For those who want to move into commercially rated safes, I recommend Lacka Safe in NYC. They have a fairly large inventory of used safes that are well suited for use for firearm storage. Caveat emptor: older commercial safes don't offer as good fire protection as new commercial safes and vaults. Older safes and vaults have concrete or gunnite as the insulation which offers fair to good protection against a tool attack, although little protection against an intense fire. Paper burns at 451 degrees F, which all commercial safes will provide some protection against for a period of time. Most AMSEC safes, and safes made by John Tann, ISM, Kaso, Mosler, and Diebold will provide more than sufficient protection against fire and burglar tool attacks. Chubb is top of the line, although for all practical purposes, is too expensive for most people.
On the other hand, I wouldn't count out safes with RSC ratings, especially safes that have walls that are measured in terms of inches or fractions of inches of steel rather than gauged steel. Not all RSC rated safes are equal, so you have to look closely at the numbers. For those who have high value collections or irreplaceable firearms, I recommend spending time shopping and, if necessary, spending more money on a TL or TRTL rated safe. You do have to be careful as older commercial safes relied on concrete (often powdered) to provide heft and insulation against a fire. These got to be quite hot and didn't protect the contents from getting scorched. Newer safes have composite materials or more advanced concrete admixtures that provide insulation and protection against drill and tool attacks.
Ditto Liberty safes-Cabelas will frequently have the 'Pro Vault' on sale we got the 18 gun model for just over $400; US made with US fire board, apparently the Chinese sheet rock outgasses some real neat stuff.
Fit/finish exceeded my expectations and it was quite easily transported home in a short minivan and set up (first floor) was done by myself using 1 1/2 pvc pipe and a $23 furniture dolly: you will be humping around essentially the equivalent of a quality 3-4 section cast iron residential boiler. Have help available if you are not accustomed to this type of activity-or better yet pay for 'pro' set up remember to verify liability/comp insurance.
As for over buying in size; I cannot imagine the above safe not being adequate for the majority of gun owners; will it fit 18 rifles no but you will be able to store a fair number of long guns, with scopes, and more than a few hand guns with mags and 'sufficient' boxes of ammo and this is WITHOUT utilizing the interior door surface which has the potential to increase storage by probably at least 25%, guns not ammo (weight).
If quick access is a concern I would get a digital lock rather than the mechanical dial-it is cumbersome, smooth but definitely not speedy.
A few tips:
To limit tool, pry bar, leverage place the safe in a closet.
You most probably will want power inside , remember to bring the wire up and into the safe prior to setting it in position.
A safe with the door fully open on bare floor is tippy; a door open safe on a padded carpet (we tapped plywood under the safe and over the carpet) is much like a motorcycle-locate/support the safe and bolt or lag it down immediately-I got 'lucky' and hit joists dead center on one side-wrought washers will do much in making the safe very secure to the floor.
Get an Extech 445815 for complete piece of mind, sensor inside of course.
Lastly and perhaps most importantly; do NOT give the combo or even show the Mrs. how to open the thing until all YOUR stuff is inside. I neglected to do this and got to hear this; 'oh thank you dear you really should get one for yourself'..
Fit/finish exceeded my expectations and it was quite easily transported home in a short minivan and set up (first floor) was done by myself using 1 1/2 pvc pipe and a $23 furniture dolly: you will be humping around essentially the equivalent of a quality 3-4 section cast iron residential boiler. Have help available if you are not accustomed to this type of activity-or better yet pay for 'pro' set up remember to verify liability/comp insurance.
As for over buying in size; I cannot imagine the above safe not being adequate for the majority of gun owners; will it fit 18 rifles no but you will be able to store a fair number of long guns, with scopes, and more than a few hand guns with mags and 'sufficient' boxes of ammo and this is WITHOUT utilizing the interior door surface which has the potential to increase storage by probably at least 25%, guns not ammo (weight).
If quick access is a concern I would get a digital lock rather than the mechanical dial-it is cumbersome, smooth but definitely not speedy.
A few tips:
To limit tool, pry bar, leverage place the safe in a closet.
You most probably will want power inside , remember to bring the wire up and into the safe prior to setting it in position.
A safe with the door fully open on bare floor is tippy; a door open safe on a padded carpet (we tapped plywood under the safe and over the carpet) is much like a motorcycle-locate/support the safe and bolt or lag it down immediately-I got 'lucky' and hit joists dead center on one side-wrought washers will do much in making the safe very secure to the floor.
Get an Extech 445815 for complete piece of mind, sensor inside of course.
Lastly and perhaps most importantly; do NOT give the combo or even show the Mrs. how to open the thing until all YOUR stuff is inside. I neglected to do this and got to hear this; 'oh thank you dear you really should get one for yourself'..
NHKevin
NES Member
Great post.
To add a bit - most people seem to buy Liberty or similar "safes" - well covered above. The differences between the Liberty safes seem to be the fire ratings, thickness and appearance of the door. Keep in mind that these RSCs generally have their weakness on the sides, and not so much the door. All of the Liberty and similar safes I looked at could easily be opened by taking an angle grinder to the side of it. Their marketing videos show how hard it is to pry the door open - no mention of cutting open the sides.
quinnjalan
NES Member
I have a Liberty for about 4 years now. Bought it at Eastern Security, Mendon MA Quality & Security that Box Stores Can't Offer!
From my research and what was already listed you can pay $400 or $10k, or anything in the middle. Also from my research most bad guys will break in and carry your (cheap) safe to another location then bust it open.
Based in this I went for a middle of the road (for my budget) one, think is was 3k. It was a 1/2” plate steel door so it’s really heavy. I also located so it’s would be really hard for anyone right handed to beat it up with a sledge hammer. It’s also surrounded with build in cabinets, again more work for the bad guys, and it’s bolted to a concrete floor.
I’m not kidding myself that no one will be able to get into it, but I’m not making it easy. My advise is don’t waste your money on a 12 gauge steel lock box as sawsall or even a hack saw is make short work of it.
Another thing to consider is who you will get the safe to it’s final resting spot? Even cheap ones are hard to move. Eastern Security showed up with a non marked van, parked around back, came in the bulkhead with the safe on a tracked machine. They put down plywood so the flooring would not be damaged and placed it on a raised base (as I did not want to stoop down to look into it), them the boss man said “is that where you want it”. I went in and measured as the build-in needed to fit correctly...I said can you move it a 1/4” in one direction and he said “no problem”. That’s service and I have never had an issue with the safe since.
Like most everything in the sport, save your pennies, buy once, cry once and you’ll be happy.
From my research and what was already listed you can pay $400 or $10k, or anything in the middle. Also from my research most bad guys will break in and carry your (cheap) safe to another location then bust it open.
Based in this I went for a middle of the road (for my budget) one, think is was 3k. It was a 1/2” plate steel door so it’s really heavy. I also located so it’s would be really hard for anyone right handed to beat it up with a sledge hammer. It’s also surrounded with build in cabinets, again more work for the bad guys, and it’s bolted to a concrete floor.
I’m not kidding myself that no one will be able to get into it, but I’m not making it easy. My advise is don’t waste your money on a 12 gauge steel lock box as sawsall or even a hack saw is make short work of it.
Another thing to consider is who you will get the safe to it’s final resting spot? Even cheap ones are hard to move. Eastern Security showed up with a non marked van, parked around back, came in the bulkhead with the safe on a tracked machine. They put down plywood so the flooring would not be damaged and placed it on a raised base (as I did not want to stoop down to look into it), them the boss man said “is that where you want it”. I went in and measured as the build-in needed to fit correctly...I said can you move it a 1/4” in one direction and he said “no problem”. That’s service and I have never had an issue with the safe since.
Like most everything in the sport, save your pennies, buy once, cry once and you’ll be happy.
You can get a $500 steel cabinet to comply with the law, a $1000-2000 "Chinese Safe" which looks secure but really isn't, a $4000-6000 "high end" safe which takes more time to get into and will be significantly heavier (but still only an "RSC"), or $10k+ for a commercial safe which provides "real" security and can be used to discount your insurance policy.
Depends on your budget, the value of what you are protecting, and the risk factor of where you live.
Depends on your budget, the value of what you are protecting, and the risk factor of where you live.
#1 yes-#2 no-#3 yes-#4 yes,been thinking lately after my buddy and his wife were woken up in the middle of the night.Alarm going off and he couldn’t get safe open on first try and after 3 attempts it locks down
Thanks to everyone that replied.this post was very informative to me,there is a lot of knowledge on this site from a-z,thanks Scott
If you are in the market for an actual gun safe I'll give you two pieces of solid advice
1. They only hold 1/2 the rifles they claim to hold
2. Tractor supply has the best prices anywhere on gun safes.
Now if it's for your bedroom gun there are many options for a single handgun and a spare mag or speedloader. Personally I keep mine in a small manual type lock(3 wheels) by the bed. I unlock it when I go to bed and lock it in the morning before I leave the house. It's just part of my routine. All my other guns are in two Winchester safes in the basement.
1. They only hold 1/2 the rifles they claim to hold
2. Tractor supply has the best prices anywhere on gun safes.
Now if it's for your bedroom gun there are many options for a single handgun and a spare mag or speedloader. Personally I keep mine in a small manual type lock(3 wheels) by the bed. I unlock it when I go to bed and lock it in the morning before I leave the house. It's just part of my routine. All my other guns are in two Winchester safes in the basement.
Don't forget to look into GSA rated safes. These safes are used by the government to store classified docs, evidence, and firearms. There is a GSA-rated safe that has a gun rack inside that pulls out, Sargent and Greenleaf "manipulation rated" dial, and is maybe 3/8 to 1/2 steel all around. Sometimes a GSA rated safe is available second hand, typically a govt contractor is changing from a mechanical S&G dial to an electronic system and they will sell off the "old" dial safes. This site Norfolk Safe - Class 5 & Class 6 GSA Approved Security Containers Nationwide. is just the one that popped up first, there are others. More specific link, Class 5 Weapons Containers | Norfolk Safe
Get a good RSC-rated gunsafe from Cabela's (It's a USA-made Liberty Safe). Go high enough in price so you get 11-gauge steel, and the thing weighs 1000 lbs. They have sales all the time, and you don't pay sales tax in MA.
I went through all this last year back and forth with UL-listed TL-30 vs TRTL-30X6 vs RSC, etc. I kept calling on ads, dealers for "genuine" used, TL-30, TRTL-30, TRTL-30X6, thinking that I could spend the same coin (<= $2K) and get the heavy, heavy steel protection on all sides and have an impervious fortress, no matter who burgled it.
Here's why it's a pipe-dream and unnecessary to try and land one of those.
I went through all this last year back and forth with UL-listed TL-30 vs TRTL-30X6 vs RSC, etc. I kept calling on ads, dealers for "genuine" used, TL-30, TRTL-30, TRTL-30X6, thinking that I could spend the same coin (<= $2K) and get the heavy, heavy steel protection on all sides and have an impervious fortress, no matter who burgled it.
Here's why it's a pipe-dream and unnecessary to try and land one of those.
- They weigh upwards of 2-tons for a safe that has the right height and growing room for guns.
- They don't exist in that great a number used and in good shape at a reasonable price so you can make a decent choice. You have to hunt hard to find in this area.
- How do you get them transported to you? 2-tons??!!
- Those that are out there in the alleged $2K (or less) price range are usually brokered by some shady, scumbag, entrepreneur, part-time junk-dealer purporting to be Joe "Safe-expert". You have to call and "set an appointment" to touch and see the product. If you're going to a reputable safe store for a used one of these, you're still talking thousands of dollars used.
- They have no lining furniture or fire protection in a lot of cases.
- Spend extra money saved on a good house alarm with central monitoring. Live monitoring where police show up, plus a good RSC safe, totally obviates the need/recommendation to get a genuine UL-listed TL-30, TRTL30, TRTL30x6 jeweler's safe.
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I just got a new one this weekend. $20 on craigslist.
I bought two Fort Knox Safes from Eastern Security Safe. Very good experience with Eastern Security Safe, and I really like the FortKnox safe. Eastern Security Safe even delivered the Safe and installed it in my basement (there was additional charge for putting the Safe in my basement).
