Gun Range Rules to strict???

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My club Old Colony Sportsman's Club in Pembroke had the 5 round rule, but they changed it to 10 about 2 years ago, great club 200yard range, in the process of closing in the outdoor pistol range. No rapid fire though. Not a big deal for me, nobody has complained about double Taps. The indoor range needs work mostly ventilation issues. But they plan on doing it all over in the next few years. PM me if you want to check it out some time and shoot as my guest.

did they change the stupid "no jacketed ammo indoors" rule? I cant find anyone that sells non jacketed 9mm, so I cant shoot indoors.
 
Nope not until they redo the back stops. I don't shoot indoors anyway the ventilation sucks.

It may be worth seeing if the club will test the backstops to see if this is a real issue or just common knowledge that has been repeated so many times it is accepted as fact.

Hopkinton had a no jacketed/1000fps rule for many years. As part of a rule re-write, the club agreed to do some testing. We spraypainted a section of the backstop and put 100 rounds (125gr, 1400 fps, FMJ) onto a small area and checked for damage every few rounds. The paint was scraped away, but the backstop left undented. The rule was removed and, years later, the backstop is doing just fine.
 
he last part is property damage. This is no judgement - I love running through rounds as much as the next guy. However, many people join a club, pay their dues and think that's enough. We have such a large club, (30 acres of everything under the sun) and our membership is so reasonable, ($75/100), that dues don't even scratch the surface. We are dependent on membership to volunteer their time to maintain the club - we have no paid employees. We build everything with sweat equity and the damage done by shitheads is pretty amazing. This and out of 350-members, we are lucky to get 5-15 to show up for a work party. The damage done by day to day shooting is expected and significant. The damage done by asshats hosing down the berm houses is maddening. It's either enforce some SOP's, or go to restricting the club for use during specific hours and under supervision. We enjoy our freedom to shoot when we want, so adhering to and enforcing a 'no dump policy' is not that hard to fathom...

www.leesportsmen.com


This.

I don't see a whole lot of people in this thread looking to actually do some work to change things. They just blame others for what they see as "stupid" rules with no clue as to why the rule may be in effect, or looking for ways to make things better. A "club" is only as good as it's members and how much work those members are willing to do.
 
Okay...we know how irritated some of the NES posters are about arcane range rules. What is boils down to this: if you don't like the rules, then don't join the club. It is really that simple. Check out some of the other clubs in your area. Chances are, you will never like Club B (no matter how nice it might be) and its five round limit rule will only continue to magnify in importance to you.

It seems to me you already have your answer.

The only alternative would be to join Club B and get involved with it, deal with older people who might have a slightly different view of shooting and eventually bring about change, but that's not going to happen overnight.
 
This.

I don't see a whole lot of people in this thread looking to actually do some work to change things. They just blame others for what they see as "stupid" rules with no clue as to why the rule may be in effect, or looking for ways to make things better. A "club" is only as good as it's members and how much work those members are willing to do.

I agree with Mark's points but on the other hand I can't see the point of intentionally joining a club if the ruleset is not tolerable to you as a shooter, particularly given that most of the time there are a lot of other choices that might better suit your needs, so your membership dollars and/or volunteer time might be better spent elsewhere.

Some of these clubs have these rules as a perceived need of the club and in some cases it's genuine 110% fuddism. If you want to join a club with bad rules expecting to change them, you will need to know which it is going in. If it is the latter you are probably completely wasting your time. Many of these clubs are managed the way that GOAL used to be run.... controlled by a "pulse dial crew" that keeps each other in power on BOD elections, etc. Trying to effect change at such a club is about as productive as pissing into the wind. Some of these clubs have stupid rules "because they said so and those are the rules" not because "Well, people were ripping up the target dividers with full auto so we had to ban/limit it. " If you're intentionally going into a bad situation it is imperative to know the mindsets involved, otherwise you'll be wasting way more time (and membership dues) than you would otherwise.

-Mike
 
Many of these clubs are managed the way that GOAL used to be run.... controlled by a "pulse dial crew" that keeps each other in power on BOD elections, etc. Trying to effect change at such a club is about as productive as pissing into the wind.

Part of the changes made at Hopkinton a decade + ago was to improve the election process to better assure those elected represent the wishes of the members:

- Actual ballots, rather than "scrap paper", with controlled distribution at the meeting based on the membership rolls. Prior to that anyone could vote, and you could literally vote twice by ripping the scrap of paper your were given in half and using each as a ballot (though I do not know if anyone actually did that).

- Declared candidates (30 days in advance) only. Prior to this, part of the strategy was "stealth candidates" - don't tell anyone you are running, and get all your friends to show up at the meeting, so you can slip in unopposed, or depose someone "by surprise". If you announce you are running, your opponent who thinks he is running unopposed might actually ask his friends to show up at the meeting and vote. Removal of "floor nominations" eliminated this game.

One test of the integrity of the leadership of any organization it its willingness to set up an honest election process in which the incumbents might actually lose.
 
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The problem is many clubs don't have a culture for USPSA or IDPA type of shooting and is more of a bullseye shooting club. The range I belong to doesn't have a magazine capacity ban, but they don't allow rapid fire (more than 1 shot per second sustained for 10 seconds). They most likely put that rule in place because come guys were dumping their magazines without knowing where the bullets landed. They don't allow/like people drawing from a holster either. When I go to the range and do some USPSA drills with holster draws and rapid fire, the on duty RSOs see that I shoot much safer than most guys and they have never stopped me. One time some of the archery guys heard me shooting and started yelling at the RSO for letting me shoot like that, but the RSO actually backed me up and said as long as he thought it was safe he wouldn't stop me.
I usually start out pretty slow, and increase the speed later to let the RSOs see that I can control my shots and that they are landing where they should.
 
I agree with Mark's points but on the other hand I can't see the point of intentionally joining a club if the ruleset is not tolerable to you as a shooter, particularly given that most of the time there are a lot of other choices that might better suit your needs, so your membership dollars and/or volunteer time might be better spent elsewhere.

Some of these clubs have these rules as a perceived need of the club and in some cases it's genuine 110% fuddism. If you want to join a club with bad rules expecting to change them, you will need to know which it is going in. If it is the latter you are probably completely wasting your time. Many of these clubs are managed the way that GOAL used to be run.... controlled by a "pulse dial crew" that keeps each other in power on BOD elections, etc. Trying to effect change at such a club is about as productive as pissing into the wind. Some of these clubs have stupid rules "because they said so and those are the rules" not because "Well, people were ripping up the target dividers with full auto so we had to ban/limit it. " If you're intentionally going into a bad situation it is imperative to know the mindsets involved, otherwise you'll be wasting way more time (and membership dues) than you would otherwise.

-Mike

Agree fully. As a "newbie" in a club any attempt to change rules will be looked upon with suspicion at most clubs, so it will take years and a lot of hard work to accomplish anything useful . . . and only maybe, if they have an open mind. Often times they don't so you are spinning your wheels and getting nowhere slowly. As Mike says, move on and find another club.


True, but it also depends on the leadership. I remember the orientation at a small club many years ago, where the director making the presentation was very proud of the fact that whenever a member asked that action shooting be permitted, the board reaction was to take an immediate and unanimous vote to turn down the request, and not listen to any details of the request.

I once belonged to a club where the rules really weren't bad, BUT all the rules were made by the BOD in SECRET meetings (members weren't allowed to speak at BOD meetings and had no say in rule-making). Due to such "leadership" and the lack of written rules that members could obtain so that they would know what was permitted or not, I quit said club! I'm a lot happier where I am wrt clubs, even if I don't agree with every rule that exists there.
 
IME the vast majority of range rules are put in place by board members that have never set foot on a range.

I think most of them would love to just shut down the ranges entirely, if they could figure out how to keep the revenue stream and enough people to continue to vote them in year after year.
 
it's threads like this that reinforce my decision to run for the BOD this year...
 
IME the vast majority of range rules are put in place by board members that have never set foot on a range.

I think most of them would love to just shut down the ranges entirely, if they could figure out how to keep the revenue stream and enough people to continue to vote them in year after year.

I've found that there are two kinds of people at my gun club in CT. Those who I meet at the range, who tend to be universally friendly and helpful. And those I meet in the clubhouse/bar/restaurant, who I've found to be cantankerous know-it-alls who probably shoot 100 rounds per year.

Don
 
Personally I can't believe anyone would join a club like this. I would not join in hopes to change the rules thats dumb. We fight enough stupid stuff in ma, to fight against stupid rules at your own gun club is retarded.

I looked for a club with a range in the middle of a big locked gate property and not a lot of shooters to bother me or care wtf I was doing.
 
Don't give them your money. Go to the place, sit down with "them" (there's usually a group of the fuddly-mcmuffins sitting around playing hearts) and say you were about to give them your money (place money on table), and then you remembered that you're a constitution loving american and recognize that the second amendment is not for hunting, but for shooting enemy's of the republic and preventing the rise of domestic tyrants(take money off of table). Proceed to walk out, giving them the finger, and whistling The Star Spangled Banner.
 
Don't give them your money. Go to the place, sit down with "them" (there's usually a group of the fuddly-mcmuffins sitting around playing hearts) and say you were about to give them your money (place money on table), and then you remembered that you're a constitution loving american and recognize that the second amendment is not for hunting, but for shooting enemy's of the republic and preventing the rise of domestic tyrants(take money off of table). Proceed to walk out, giving them the finger, and whistling The Star Spangled Banner.

And they will say.. Thank God! We don't want THAT TYPE of person at OUR club.

Those are the types of clubs that have a range, for the sole purpose of talking about shooting/ hunting. The ranges are to be used 1x per year per member, a max of 3 shots, enough to site in their gun for hunting season.

- - - Updated - - -

I've found that there are two kinds of people at my gun club in CT. Those who I meet at the range, who tend to be universally friendly and helpful. And those I meet in the clubhouse/bar/restaurant, who I've found to be cantankerous know-it-alls who probably shoot 100 rounds per year.

Don
And that would be the whole board of directors of the club.
That is how those places work.
 
Personally I can't believe anyone would join a club like this. I would not join in hopes to change the rules thats dumb. We fight enough stupid stuff in ma, to fight against stupid rules at your own gun club is retarded.

I looked for a club with a range in the middle of a big locked gate property and not a lot of shooters to bother me or care wtf I was doing.


Well it's not so dumb if you are from a different place in time and space. To the people that promulgated the rules, the rules were probably made back when NRA Bullseye Shooting and the NRA Practical Police Course (PPC) were the norm. (the PPC BTW wasn't that practical, not like IDPA or IPSC [probably not so practical either, but fast]). People shot primarily revolvers with one hand, usually in single action mode or very customized 1911's, what was called "softball guns" frequently with adjustable S&W revolver sights added (the ne plus ultra of customization). People might have a Garand or an M1 Carbine, but for most people it was revolvers, bolt guns, lever actions. The whole idea of gun control wasn't the way it is today (pre-1968). Gun clubs catered to basically two kinds of shooters: competitive NRA type bullseye shooters and hunters who liked to sight in that deer rifle before the season began. A subset if that latter group were hand loaders. (there certainly wasn't as much choice in ammo, and it wasn't until a guy named Lee Juras who came up with the first modern high velocity handgun ammo "Super-Vel" that we began to see changes and that was in the early 70's).

So while you can rail all you want about "dumb rules" those rules aren't going to change until the people who have supported the club for the last forty or even fifty years are no longer around.

Now, I am not defending these guys, but you posed wondered why the "dumb rules" and I am giving you an answer. Remember that many of the modern shooting techniques weren't adapted by competitive and military and police shooters until the 1970's (or even later) when Jeff Cooper and a few others started up IPSC. At the time Cooper saw it as realistic training, but in the end the "gamesmen" with their race guns got the upper hand (but that's a whole different story). I really think that many of you would be surprised just how modern, modern pistol craft is, and how radically training methods have changed. Sometime look up the Newhall Massacre and see where four California Highway Patrol officers were killed. When CHP found the bodies, they discovered that the expended brass from their revolvers were in their pockets. They also shot one handed and couldn't control their .357 magnums.Why? Because they had been taught to police their brass as they fired on the range and they qualified with .38 sp target wadcutters. Then there was the Great Miami Shootout in which the FBI lost agents due to two very determined perps. All of this has happened in my lifetime...it's a much different way of shooting today, and the problem is, lots of people haven't kept up with it. You can damn it all you want, but there is your reason IMO. There are lots of people who still enjoy that kind of shooting and maintain those rules because that is what they know and they are happy with them.
 
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Those are the types of clubs that have a range, for the sole purpose of talking about shooting/ hunting. The ranges are to be used 1x per year per member, a max of 3 shots, enough to site in their gun for hunting season.
.

I brought my deer gun down to the range and proceeded to put about 100 rounds through it over the course of a couple of hours. It was late summer, so there were a fair number of 5 shot per year deer hunter types there.

They were amazed that i would "waste" so much ammo "sighting in" my gun. The conversation went something like this:

Him - "wow, you must have something wrong with your scope, if you are taking that many shots to sight in"
Me - "I'm not sighting in, I'm just shooting."

Him - Why would you do that?
Me - because its fun, and I'm a new hunter and I want to be as good as I can. What I really need to practice is sitting still and being quiet, but this is more fun.

Him - after I retrieve my target - Well that doesn't work. Your shots are all low.
Me - but they're in a nice group. The gun is actually sighted for my expensive hunting ammo, which is hotter so it hits higher. These low hits are fine. I'm going to leave the scope sighted in for my hunting ammo, so this is good.

Him - but they're too low.


Of course what they don't know is that I specifically purchased my deer gun in .308 so that I could shoot cheap, readily available military surplus ammo and actually practice with my deer gun.

In contrast, my buddy with a 300 win mag pays about $2/round and hardly ever shoots it.
 
One other thing.

I'm new to MA and waiting on my LTC. I live well within 128 and intend to join at least 2 clubs.

One will be close by. I'm interested in a nice indoor range with good ventilation where I can shoot 7x24.

The other can be further away but must:

1) have a 200 yd min rifle range
2) allow steel shooting
3) allow MGs
4) have no restrictions on rate of fire or mag capacity.
5) optional would be an active IDPA/USPSA shooting community.


I'm pretty sure my second club is going to be Harvard Sportsmans.

The first one, I'll deal with it if they are very restrictive, but I'll be happy that it is close.

One thing you MA people need to understand. You have it very good when it comes to clubs. Most clubs in CT run between 200-300/yr.
In MA, that will buy you 2-3 memberships. So you can belong to multiple clubs and go to the one that meets your needs at that point.
 
The other can be further away but must:

1) have a 200 yd min rifle range
2) allow steel shooting
3) allow MGs
4) have no restrictions on rate of fire or mag capacity.
5) optional would be an active IDPA/USPSA shooting community.

I'm pretty sure my second club is going to be Harvard Sportsmans.

Yup, that is Harvard.
 
However, many people join a club, pay their dues and think that's enough. We have such a large club, (30 acres of everything under the sun) and our membership is so reasonable, ($75/100), that dues don't even scratch the surface. We are dependent on membership to volunteer their time to maintain the club - we have no paid employees. We build everything with sweat equity and the damage done by shitheads is pretty amazing. This and out of 350-members, we are lucky to get 5-15 to show up for a work party. The damage done by day to day shooting is expected and significant. The damage done by asshats hosing down the berm houses is maddening. It's either enforce some SOP's, or go to restricting the club for use during specific hours and under supervision. We enjoy our freedom to shoot when we want, so adhering to and enforcing a 'no dump policy' is not that hard to fathom...

www.leesportsmen.com
mark, my club is basically similar to your club. we have just over 300 paid members. of that number we usually have less than 25 show up at the meetings. come elections for the club it is the same officers that usually end up getting voted back in (sometimes they end up in a different position but not very often). the club officers are also part of the board of directors for a total of 18 officers.whenever there is a club function or work party it is usually the same people (officers) that show up. i will say that a few other members show up to help out on occassion. most people just want to use the club when they have time and not be bothered with it when it comes time to help. we have a fairly large club consisting of just under 400 acres so there is plenty of things to do there including atvs and camping etc.
 
Bob,
I'm new to MA, but it seems to me that because of the requirements by some towns/cities that you be a member of a club for them to issue a LTC, many of the metro boston clubs have THOUSANDS of members.

That keeps the dues low and allows them to buy/build what they want with plain old cash.

I have heard that Braintree Rifle and Pistol has about 3500 members. I've shot CMP style matches there and its always the same few guys there. Great group of guys, but they benefit greatly from the thousands of Boston LTC holders who pay them $100/yr and never set foot in the place.

So its a whole different set of rules.

I used to belong to a hunting club, that had a very reasonable membership cost. You were expected to work 20 hrs/yr. If you didn't work, you could buy your time off for $15/hr. So if you didn't work, the club cost you $425/yr. If you did work, it cost $125. That seems like a good way to go for a club that doesn't have a lot of cash.

Don
 
I brought my deer gun down to the range and proceeded to put about 100 rounds through it over the course of a couple of hours. It was late summer, so there were a fair number of 5 shot per year deer hunter types there.

They were amazed that i would "waste" so much ammo "sighting in" my gun. The conversation went something like this:

Him - "wow, you must have something wrong with your scope, if you are taking that many shots to sight in"
Me - "I'm not sighting in, I'm just shooting."

Him - Why would you do that?
Me - because its fun, and I'm a new hunter and I want to be as good as I can. What I really need to practice is sitting still and being quiet, but this is more fun.

Him - after I retrieve my target - Well that doesn't work. Your shots are all low.
Me - but they're in a nice group. The gun is actually sighted for my expensive hunting ammo, which is hotter so it hits higher. These low hits are fine. I'm going to leave the scope sighted in for my hunting ammo, so this is good.

Him - but they're too low.


Of course what they don't know is that I specifically purchased my deer gun in .308 so that I could shoot cheap, readily available military surplus ammo and actually practice with my deer gun.

In contrast, my buddy with a 300 win mag pays about $2/round and hardly ever shoots it.

in my experience.. Most Fudds are not shooters at all. They have little to no appreciation of firearms and don't enjoy shooting..
 
mark, my club is basically similar to your club. we have just over 300 paid members. of that number we usually have less than 25 show up at the meetings. come elections for the club it is the same officers that usually end up getting voted back in (sometimes they end up in a different position but not very often). the club officers are also part of the board of directors for a total of 18 officers.whenever there is a club function or work party it is usually the same people (officers) that show up. i will say that a few other members show up to help out on occassion. most people just want to use the club when they have time and not be bothered with it when it comes time to help. we have a fairly large club consisting of just under 400 acres so there is plenty of things to do there including atvs and camping etc.

When I joined my club in 1992, I had no intentions of becoming active - ever. I figured I paid my dues, dropped my range fees in the box and that was enough. Besides, the club was chock full of Fudds who would scoff when I'd bring my Colt NM to the range - God forbid my HK93A2 - you would have thought Satan had arrived...Gradually however, I became more and more active, was appointed to head the rifle range, then ran for a board seat. In that time, (and not all due to me), we have 3 pistol action pits, IDPA program, a carbine course coming soon and are shooting steel challenges. I have rewritten the SOP's to be more friendly to all shooters and took steps to weed out fecal-heads. It's working, but it didn't happen overnight - it was setting examples, stacking meetings when need be and becoming invested...LSA is my second home - I love my club and seek to fill it with others who love it as well...People who don't like the 'no mag dump' rule are free to attend monthly meetings and voice their displeasure, seek remedies, come help fix the insane amounts of damage still left from their follies, offer ideas, get involved, make changes. Like I said - I'd love nothing better than a full-auto firendly pit - we have enough property to do it for sure, but I can't do it myself. Instead they bitch...It's easier...
 
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Bob,
I'm new to MA, but it seems to me that because of the requirements by some towns/cities that you be a member of a club for them to issue a LTC, many of the metro boston clubs have THOUSANDS of members.

That keeps the dues low and allows them to buy/build what they want with plain old cash.

I have heard that Braintree Rifle and Pistol has about 3500 members. I've shot CMP style matches there and its always the same few guys there. Great group of guys, but they benefit greatly from the thousands of Boston LTC holders who pay them $100/yr and never set foot in the place.

Don

Don, Boston used to require club membership. They dropped that requirement ~4 years ago now. Ironically, Braintree PD won't accept an application w/o a club membership, according to what I've been told.

BR&P has 4000 members, gaining ~100 each of 10 months that we run "new member orientation" sessions. Last I was told (~1.5 years ago now) ~500 different badge numbers swiped in during the prior calendar year, only ~250 swiped in more than 10 times during the year.

We have money so we contract out most of the maintenance and it gets done! It is a hard-core group of probably 50 people who really help out at the club.

------------

Mark, as for "serving", I did my bit for a lot of years and it is thankless. I won't do it again. I was on the BOD of one club for 14 years as Legislative Chairman and served in the same capacity (non-BOD position) at 2 other clubs for a total of ~4 years. Helped re-write the Bylaws and Range Rules at 2 clubs, was GOAL Rep at 3 clubs, etc. Now I serve as an RO at BR&P one day/month (it's also my excuse for my Wife and I to shoot at least once/month), attend as many member meetings of both clubs as possible, but that is it.
 
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