Gun owners protest police action *UPDATE* LAWSUIT FILED

[Erebus]

Link to UPDATE Post

Link The video is worth watching. Good example of a sheep on there.

BY CHARLES SCHILLINGER
STAFF WRITER
05/14/2008
DICKSON CITY — A Friday evening police incident spilled over into a Borough Council meeting Tuesday, with gun-rights advocates alleging harassment by two police officers.

The regular monthly meeting erupted into a full-blown debate on the Second Amendment, with more than 20 Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association members — many of whom were openly armed — arguing their right to carry a weapon in public.

Police have yet to release a report of the incident in which a group of customers at Old Country Buffet were questioned about openly carrying handguns in public. At least one of those customers, Rich Banks, of Luzerne County, was detained for refusing to cooperate with police in regard to his concealed .38-caliber handgun, Police Chief William Stadnitski said. Mr. Banks’ weapon remains confiscated, but the chief said he can pick it up at any time.

Pennsylvanians are required to carry a permit for a concealed weapon; however, there are exemptions, such as in the case of Mr. Banks, who Dickson City police later found out had a federal gun-dealer license.

“We don’t feel there was any misconduct. We did what we had to for the safety of the customers,” Chief Stadnitski said of his part-time officers, Karen Gallagher and Anthony Mariano, who responded to the restaurant after 911 received complaints. The chief said no charges will be filed.

But some, like Andrew Koch, disagreed. Mr. Koch drove more than five hours from Pittsburgh to speak out for Mr. Banks and the other gun owners who were “embarrassed, oppressed, harassed and violated” by the police.

“These officers need to be disciplined, and criminal charges need to be brought against them,” Mr. Koch said.

Firearm association members turned out from all over the state at Tuesday’s meeting after postings on Internet sites, such as www.opencarry.org. The co-founder of that site, Lancaster resident Mike Stollenwerk, drove from Washington, D.C., to protest the police conduct.

“Normally when hiccups like this happen, they don’t go as far as gun seizure. ... Usually it gets cleared up much quicker,” he said.

Bill Grumbine, of Kutztown, carrying a Springfield XD-45 handgun, said he brought his 15-year-old daughter, Emily, for a “real-life civics lesson.”

“The last thing we want to do is use our guns, just like the last thing you want to do is use the air bag in your car,” he said. “But we believe in being prepared, and we believe in exercising our rights.”

Several council members and Mayor Anthony Zaleski defended the police officers.

“Our officers did not know what to expect. They could be walking into situations similar to shootings at school campuses and other public events,” said council President Barbara Mecca.

Contacted by The Times-Tribune, Lackawanna County District Attorney Andy Jarbola declined to comment on this specific case, but said people have a right to openly carry a weapon without having to show identification or a permit.

“Police can ask, but if they don’t want to give it, they don’t have to,” he said. “It’s going to be surprising to the public, but that’s the current state of law.”

Contact the writer: [email protected]

 

[GSG]

Pennsylvanians are required to carry a permit for a concealed weapon; however, there are exemptions, such as in the case of Mr. Banks, who Dickson City police later found out had a federal gun-dealer license.

Huh? So FFL=LTC?

 

[Twigg]

Contacted by The Times-Tribune, Lackawanna County District Attorney Andy Jarbola declined to comment on this specific case, but said people have a right to openly carry a weapon without having to show identification or a permit.

Well, this guy "gets it" anyway.

O, to live in a free state... One day, I shall.

 

[Baystatesuks]

Well, this guy "gets it" anyway.

O, to live in a free state... One day, I shall.

Open carry makes sense to me. Then everyone is put on notice you are armed. No more wondering about it then.

 

[Twigg]

Open carry makes sense to me. Then everyone is put on notice you are armed. No more wondering about it then.

Some clarification - this is the part he "gets";

...without having to show identification or a permit

As much as I'd love to get a fancy holster for my 1911 and go for a walk, I really don't think open carry is a good idea.

There is a line from A Nation of Cowards on p135 where the author comments on the second amendment.

"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."
Note that this statement neither creates the right nor defines it. Instead the statement refers to a pre-existent right long recognized by custom as a "natural" or God-given right belonging to the individual that is prior and superior to the Constitution itself.

One can only hope SCOTUS will agree.

 

[Baystatesuks]

I think fundamentally the right is to self preservation. Whether by gun, knife, big rock, sharp stick, etc., that is a fundamental right that no one can or should try and take away.

 

[Coyote33]

Police have yet to release a report of the incident in which a group of customers at Old Country Buffet were questioned about openly carrying handguns in public. At least one of those customers, Rich Banks, of Luzerne County, was detained for refusing to cooperate with police in regard to his concealed .38-caliber handgun, Police Chief William Stadnitski said. Mr. Banks’ weapon remains confiscated, but the chief said he can pick it up at any time.

I'm confused. Was it carried openly, or concealed?

 

[Half Cocked]

I'm confused. Was it carried openly, or concealed?

I believe that Mr Banks was carrying concealed and when asked about license (which I believe is needed for concealed) was not cooperative with the police.

Very poor article with limited information on the event.

I believe that there is more to the original event.

 

[6hold]

Gun owners protest police action *with video*

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Ken Merkel, of Kempton, keeps a Glock 27 handgun on his belt as gun- rights advocates gather for dinner at Charlie Brown’s in Dickson City before attending a Dickson City Borough Council meeting Tuesday night. PAMELA SUCHY / STAFF PHOTOGRAPHER

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VIDEO: http://www.thetimes-tribune.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=19687220&BRD=2185&PAG=461&dept_id=415898&rfi=​

.​

 

[pdm]

I believe that Mr Banks was carrying concealed and when asked about license (which I believe is needed for concealed) was not cooperative with the police.

Very poor article with limited information on the event.

I believe that there is more to the original event.

Pennsylvanians are required to carry a permit for a concealed weapon; however, there are exemptions, such as in the case of Mr. Banks, who Dickson City police later found out had a federal gun-dealer license.

PA obviously exempts FFLs from the need to get a concealed carry permit. Makes sense, they are regulated already.

 

[jcr]

I'm confused. Was it carried openly, or concealed?

They were at an Open Carry dinner event.

The .38 mentioned was the guy's back-up that was concealed.

The guy identified himself, but refused to show gov't supplied ID (apparently legal stance).

Maybe others complied with the ID demand. All complied with LEO demands to hand over their guns.

Police checked s/n of guns. All but the .38 was on their "list".

The list is by definition incomplete, but the LEOs claimed that the list was comprehensive, and kept the guy's gun on suspicision of illegality.

As situation developed, LEOs relized they were beyond legality (by rousting people from dinner who were obeying the law).

Overall, seems like PSH on the part of a restaurant patron and the first two responding LEOs.

Lastly, the goal of the Open Carry group was to familiarize and publize the legalness of guns. This event was successful in reaching the goal.

 

[drumenigma]

“Our officers did not know what to expect. They could be walking into situations similar to shootings at school campuses and other public events,” said council President Barbara Mecca.

So now all of a sudden every person including those who legitimately own firearms for their own purposes is being compared to those ruthless psycho killers.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Lastly, the goal of the Open Carry group was to familiarize and publize the legalness of guns. This event was successful in reaching the goal.

A forseeable consequence of meeting that goal is having that rule changed. The most effective thing the anti-gunners could do to get open carry banned is to stage open carry events to make their point.

It used to be legal to carry long guns openly in CA until a group of citizens started to exercise that right, at which time the state legislature took swift action.

 

[Erebus]

So now all of a sudden every person including those who legitimately own firearms for their own purposes is being compared to those ruthless psycho killers.

Well apparently anyone exercising their Constitutionally Protected Right are assumed to be guilty of a crime and can be roused and treated as a criminal by mere virtue of them exercising their right.

Guilty until proven innocent.

When whoever it was called 911 and reported that there were people in the restaurant peacefully eating meals while carrying guns the response from 911 should have been, "What are they doing wrong?". Instead in today's world the response was send the cops, drag them out of the restaurant, search them and seize their firearms, and hold them until it's proven they have not committed any crime.

It's not a right anymore, it really have been reduced to a privilege at best and a liability most commonly. Your mere exercise of your Constitutionally Protected Right is now all the evidence they need for the assumption that you are engaged in criminal behavior. And to treat you as such.

 

[goodoldxelos]

open carry would be nice, the Miami Classic holsters looks comfortable... although they are somewhat concealed... the average public is terrified of guns i think everyone should shoot a gun, it really removes the fear factor, i took my girlfriend to sw sports shooting center and she was scared until she fired my p99 a few times then really liked it...

 

[drgrant]

It used to be legal to carry long guns openly in CA until a group of citizens started to exercise that right, at which time the state legislature took swift action.

A bunch of people going out to eat and black panthers marching around with rifles chanting slogans advocating violence against police I think are two wholly separate ball games, as it were. VCDL for instance has been doing open carry protests for years in VA (to protest the dumber than hell VA law that says you cant carry concealed in a restaurant that sells booze) and there has been close to zero inertia to ban open carry in VA.

-Mike

 

[DickWanner]

A forseeable consequence of meeting that goal is having that rule changed. The most effective thing the anti-gunners could do to get open carry banned is to stage open carry events to make their point.

It used to be legal to carry long guns openly in CA until a group of citizens started to exercise that right, at which time the state legislature took swift action.

A right not exercised is a right lost.

 

[jcr]

A forseeable consequence of meeting that goal is having that rule changed. The most effective thing the anti-gunners could do to get open carry banned is to stage open carry events to make their point.

I don't think it could be accomplished without a change to the PA constitution. PA has "defense of themselves" in their RKBA. I suppose the PA legislature would go for no-license-conceal-carry as a replacement for giving up open carry. That's not what then anti-gun people want. And it's gotta be one or the other, there.

It used to be legal to carry long guns openly in CA until a group of citizens started to exercise that right, at which time the state legislature took swift action.

And my understanding is that CA has no RKBA wording in their constitution at all, so with 51% of the vote in Sacremento, the Panthers screwed it for everyone.

 

[Pa. Patriot]

I was the individual arrested. As you can imagine, the news reports are generally misleading and downplay the event. I am mentioned as having been "detained" (I was arrested), but released for "refusing to cooperate" with police.

What is not mentioned is that their idea of "cooperation" included telling my wife (unlawfully) to cease recording the event. At which time I decided I would not comply with (unlawful) demand for government issued ID (drivers license).

Original report on the board from which our group organizes:
http://www.pafoa.org/forum/conceale...ickson-city-5-9-a-post-298674.html#post298674

My first post in response to the the incident:
http://www.pafoa.org/forum/conceale...ickson-city-5-9-a-post-298916.html#post298916

Best regards,
Rich Banks

founder: paopencarry.org

 

[Admin]

Welcome to NES Rich.

 

[KMaurer]

“Our officers did not know what to expect. They could be walking into situations similar to shootings at school campuses and other public events,” said council President Barbara Mecca.

We didn't know what to expect. These local political hacks could be similar to Hitler, Stalin, Pol-Pot, Idi Amin and other mass murderers of recent history.

Ken

 

[WayneWong]

Thank you Rich,

With admiration and gratitude for what you did for our cause.

Jeff

 

[rscalzo]

Old Country Buffet has instituted a No Firearm's policy as of the 14th.

 

[maee]

I think fundamentally the right is to self preservation. Whether by gun, knife, big rock, sharp stick, etc., that is a fundamental right that no one can or should try and take away.

I think you forgot one: by cellular telephone. Call 911 to give them a heads up that they need to send out a cleaning crew in ~10 minutes to pick up your pieces.

 

[maee]

Old Country Buffet has not instituted a No Firearm's policy as of the 14th.

because then no customers would be able to eat there

 

[Ithaca1937]

Old Country Buffet has not instituted a No Firearm's policy as of the 14th.

The Old Country Buffet that this happened at has. I wasn't there on May 9th when the police were called, but on May 13th was Dickson City's council meeting. The plan was to meet at the Old Country Buffet before the meeting for dinner. I had my XD45 on my hip and was ready to leave my house when I saw on the PAFOA forum that Old Country Buffet put up a no firearms sign and the location of the meet up for dinner was moved to Charlie Browns.

You can read what the sign said on the PAFOA forum here.
http://www.pafoa.org/forum/concealed-open-carry-121/21292-pa-patriot-arrested-oc-dinner-old-country-buffet-dickson-city-5-9-a-page-115.html#post303119

 

[sksguns]

Excellent quote....

“The last thing we want to do is use our guns, just like the last thing you want to do is use the air bag in your car,” he said. “But we believe in being prepared, and we believe in exercising our rights.”

 

[6hold]

Two videos on guns in PA . . .

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The Chief of police talks about the open carry situation in Dickson City:
http://pahomepage.com/media_player.php?media_id=15712


The right to bear arms and gun laws in Pennsylvania:
http://pahomepage.com/media_player.php?media_id=15263
.​

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Old Country Buffet has not instituted a No Firearm's policy as of the 14th.

An excellent example of how the "in your face" approach to open carry can result in adverse consequences. Even if PA is not a "binding signage" state, this shows what can happen in such states - and the added publicity could result in either a ban on unlicensed open carry or passage of a binding signage law in PA.

In some cases a right not exercised is a right lost, but open carry would not appear to be one of them.

 

[dwarven1]

Welcome to NES, Rich and Ithaca1937. Very interesting reading on your boards; it's going to take me a while to read 100 pages of posts!! But it's good to know that folks in other states are fighting the good fight.