Gun Industry / Gun shop discussion megathread

[Ultrarunner]

Coming from a gun shop employee, there is some good information on how to improve on this thread (used gun updates, hours, etc) , but it's also the old adage of "Walk a mile in another mans moccasins"

A lot of the whiners on this thread that would in fact drive 50 miles to save $20, think that we "owe" you inexpensive transfers, then run to Walmart to buy their ammo are usually the first ones to b**** that there are no good local gun shops near them....

When you consider that in order to have a decent selection of inventory at a gun shop you have to lay out HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of dollars of YOUR OWN MONEY (banks won't lend in this business) all to make 10-15% on that investment, then you can see that in 20 years there may be NO gun shops left....Without the passion we all have for this business we'd be better off putting our money in gun company stocks, sitting home drinking beer and voting for Hillary...

 

[iofneedle]

Well, now you understand how Four Seasons stays in business.

That'e because Four Seasons has a database driven system and can easily update the list, and remove guns instantly at time of sale rather than attempting to keep an HTML based page updated.

Just bought a rifle at Four Seasons today because of this ^^^

 

[rwl1955]

Right, ever try to get into Four Season's on a Saturday?

 

[drgrant]

Coming from a gun shop employee, there is some good information on how to improve on this thread (used gun updates, hours, etc) , but it's also the old adage of "Walk a mile in another mans moccasins"

A lot of the whiners on this thread that would in fact drive 50 miles to save $20, think that we "owe" you inexpensive transfers, then run to Walmart to buy their ammo are usually the first ones to b**** that there are no good local gun shops near them....

Of course one problem with the ammo is that the mid levels **** up the pricing of the ammo. Walmart is effectively a mid level and consumers are buying ammo at whatever walmart pays for it and probably a pretty fixed profit margin on top of that. The other mid levels **** around with the gun shops so badly on ammo availability and pricing, it would not surprise me if dealer cost in some cases is WORSE than the price someone pays at walmart.... which is why during the Obamascares and Sandy Hookmaster fun land deals a lot of small gun shops were hitting up walmarts because their mid levels wouldn't send them stuff or had priced themselves out of existence. The mid levels also liked doing hula hoop chicken neck jive turkey shit like getting in a pallet of .380 or whatever the tough stuff was to get and camping on it for a month or two and watching the price go up. (anyone that thinks the distis didn't do this stuff is delusional) companies like ATK/Remington/Winchester were going all out 24/7/365 production and yet there was this precipitous, nasty lag in the market, outside of the ammo that showed up at walmarts and then quickly disappeared. It's pretty obvious the mids all had the same thought at around the same time and turtled on ammo so they could profit from the huge price spike. The only saving grace is a lot of the gun shops actually stuck their hand up and said "No, I'm not going to buy your case of .380 that costs $300... none of my customers are going to pay that much, I'd rather go without. "

This stuff all leaves the small gun shop in a pickle... sell ammunition making low or virtually no profit, or making 50 cents or a buck a box and getting called a "rapist". Or not having ammo on the shelf to sell. None of these are good situations.

This was less of a problem 10, 15 years ago when ammo was so cheap (due to a relatively constant supply glut) that a dealer could mark up a box of ammo $.50-$2.00 and nobody gave a shit because even marked up it was still really cheap. There's some economic term for it but I can't place it right now, price pressure or something like that. It's just like when gas was always under $2 a gallon.... way more people used big brand stations like Sunoco, Shell, etc that were slightly higher in price because they became insensitive to the price.

The other thing that is ****ing up ammo prices is 10-15 years ago there was CHEAP milsurp (and imported) ammo for every caliber imaginable all over the place, and the gun shops had tons of it. All of that stuff is almost COMPLETELY gone from the market. Blame the UN for that bullshit. If it wasn't for that IANSA/UN faggotry about countries getting rid of milsurp ammo america would still be awash in it. Hell even if the US didnt have that retarded law forcing demilling of surplus US military ammo the supply would be a lot better, the .gov probably demills (at taxpayer cost, I might add) millions of rounds of ammo every year that they could have just sold on the secondary market and recovered most of what they spent to buy it to begin with. This entire situation is mind numbing when you think about how awful it is.

For the "kids" reading this or people who only recently got involved in shooting but could have a long time ago, yes, you missed out. Big time. There were glorious days where we would buy like a case of 7.62 x 39 (for like $76!! or less!!) and burn up most of it at the range in one day. Or an entire case of 00 Buck magnums, or slugs, etc... and then burn up 500 rounds of .22LR at the end because it cost 8 dollars. the ammo was almost free. Those days are long gone. [sad2]

-Mike

 

[dooshorama]

Perfect gun shop? Lew Hortons in Framingham, Colmans in Canton, Reileys in Hookset, KTP in Kittery, Tightlines in Bridgewater, Taylors in Plainville. Wait, the 80s are the distant past [sad2] nothing like these shops today. Even the two that are still in business...

care to elaborate what made them perfect back then?

 

[dooshorama]

A lot of the whiners on this thread that would in fact drive 50 miles to save $20, think that we "owe" you inexpensive transfers, then run to Walmart to buy their ammo are usually the first ones to b**** that there are no good local gun shops near them....

When you consider that in order to have a decent selection of inventory at a gun shop you have to lay out HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of dollars of YOUR OWN MONEY (banks won't lend in this business) all to make 10-15% on that investment, then you can see that in 20 years there may be NO gun shops left....

i don't feel that i am owed an inexpensive transfer. i also don't feel that i'm obligated to support a business that over charges or imposes restrictions on transfers because they piled up crap inventory that they can't make profit on.

the truth is that the gun industry is doing better than ever. because of laws, local FFLs are required to complete the transfer. so i don't think LGS are going away. it may be that dealers will have to act only as transfer agents; or that they become end-points of large distributors for on-demand purchases (like davidson's); or something.

 

[EJFudd]

care to elaborate what made them perfect back then?

More like pleasurable than perfect... but here's my take: Regular/traditional business hours, real honest-to-God stores, wide selection of both new and used guns, reasonably intelligent & cooperative sales people for the most part, fair prices and casual browsing encouraged.

It was a different time. I understand why things have changed. Some of these places, of course, are still around.

 

[Nickle]

In reference to some of the surplus ammo issue is also the fact that most western countries went from 7.62 NATO to 5.56 NATO for their battle rifles quite a while ago.

I still see some guys asking for battle packs of cheap 7.62 NATO ammo, not understanding why it's no longer available. They just don't get it, as they apparently delude themselves into thinking that if they want it bad enough and whine for it long enough, somehow it will magically appear.

If you think you've seen cheap idiots already, you should see some of the stuff we deal with. Guys that seem to expect to get the ammo for free, or get paid for taking it. Yeah, guys that want a "deal" on ONE box of ammo. I understand the guys that buy 5 boxes wanting it, or the AR/AK guys that ask what kind of deal we'll give them if they buy a case of it (and we usually give them a decent deal). But for ONE box? That's insanity/stupidity, especially when our prices aren't bad to start with. Hartford VT gun show had more cheap idiots (dealers and customers) than any other show I've worked.

Yeah, I've been on both sides of the table/counter. Some dealers are idiots, some customers are idiots. Some dealers are great, some customers are great. Good customers get taken good care of, we want them to come back and bring their friends.

Idiots we hope won't come back and waste our time. I say waste our time, because they almost always buy little, try to pay nothing or near nothing for it (they expect us to operate at a loss) and then bad mouth us over our prices (which are usually the cheapest around anyways).

I travel quite a ways to go to a shop mostly because the local shops just don't carry what I look for. But, that's not their fault, as the things I look for are usually low density to start off with.

 

[71montess]

The old saying " You catch more flies with honey than vinegar " should apply to all business. Not all people going into their store know exactly what they want and should not be disrespected because of it. I also think there could be a market for gun parts and tools for builders even with the internet market, the quick availability would be an asset.

 

[M.Bison]

I think we're all agreeing on a lot of things here.
Surely a dude who drives a couple hours to save $20 is a dope but there are shops in Mass where I see guns priced $150-200 over FSeasons. Which is because their volume is very high, I know, Ok. Fine.

What I don't understand is how so many shops tolerate having dickhead employees behind the counter. Look around, most gun shop customers are nerdy guys. If they're treated like garbage they're going right to the internet.
I understand that it must be annoying having dudes standing around your shop for no good reason but lots of us have jobs where we deal with the public all day and answering dumb questions is part of the job. Ignoring clients and acting like they're bothering me would put me out on my ass. Yet at gun stores you see it all the time.

I've been to FSeasons many times and the dudes behind the counter have all been beyond friendly and helpful.
Hey, maybe that's part of the reason that a tiny shop is one of the biggest retailers in the state? Hmm..

 

[Nickle]

The old saying " You catch more flies with honey than vinegar " should apply to all business. Not all people going into their store know exactly what they want and should not be disrespected because of it. I also think there could be a market for gun parts and tools for builders even with the internet market, the quick availability would be an asset.

My father used to say "you do your buying where you do your begging". It's pretty much true.

Some customers really want an education on WHY they should buy certain stuff. That's OK, give them that education, and don't be biased about it.

As to the parts issue, there's decent money in it, as long as you don't gouge. I sell mostly AR parts at shows, and promote my gunsmithing. I usually make decent money on parts. And, I'm usually the ONLY dealer selling those parts.

 

[dooshorama]

If you think you've seen cheap idiots already, you should see some of the stuff we deal with.

i'm not sure what you do, but it sounds like you're talking about gun shows?
i think haggling is pretty common at flea markets. maybe gun shows attract a similar crowd with haggling tendencies?

 

[Nickle]

i'm not sure what you do, but it sounds like you're talking about gun shows?
i think haggling is pretty common at flea markets. maybe gun shows attract a similar crowd with haggling tendencies?

Yup, gun shows. Haggling I understand. Trying to get a sweet deal for ONE box of already fairly cheap hard to get ammo is absurd.

Haggling over a $5 part that nobody else carries, and is very fairly priced (and cheaper than ordering it plus shipping) is even more absurd.

There's haggling, and then there's being stingy cheap and stupid. They're cheap and stupid.

Yeah, I do give a decent break to people that buy a good quantity. ONE box of $10-$15 hard to find ammo isn't considered "high quantity", especially when anybody else that has it (shows, shops or elsewhere) is much higher.

I know of a guy that's slowly trying to turn an M38 Mosin into a comparable rifle to a new Remington 700. Of course, it's just parts alone (somebody is doing the gunsmithing for free) is costing him about as much or more than buying the Remington. And, he's still going to have an M38 Mosin when he ends up. He also thinks he can just throw money at his lack of ability to fix it (buy better ammo instead of learning how to shoot decent, or buy a better rifle and training).

 

[A Defiant Goose]

Would be real nice if any gun shop in the state of Massachusetts would return any of my damn emails

 

[EJFudd]

Would be real nice if any gun shop in the state of Massachusetts would return any of my damn emails

I know. It can be very discouraging. Why do they even post an e-mail address if they never check or answer them?

I've learned the hard way that you've got to call or visit. Like it or not, that's what works.

E-mails to gun shops are almost always a useless waste of time and we've just got to accept that fact.

 

[EJFudd]

i think haggling is pretty common at flea markets. maybe gun shows attract a similar crowd with haggling tendencies?

Yup, gun shows. Haggling I understand.

Haggling is, without question, part of the gun show scene, especially for used guns. I may not haggle over a $10.00 item but I sure as heck am going to try to get some money off a used pistol I want that is tagged $50-$100 over market.

For new guns and ammo I want, I'll just pick the lowest priced vendor. No real need to haggle there. It's either at a price I'm willing to pay or I can live without it.

 

[greencobra]

at gun shows, I've found gun prices are usually exceptionally high. it's almost like the dealer doesn't want to sell a gun and deal with the hassle of paperwork. I only go looking for components cause they're so hard to come by otherwise. components are pretty much what drives me to go to a new shop. i'm lucky and live between four seasons and collectors and deal with them exclusively for buying guns, I won't travel to save a few bucks on a gun. at my age I don't need road trips, and usually know what I want and just point and nod so I don't need any sales help except to point me to the paperwork to sign.

a big bitch I have is trying to order something. i'm still old school and like to give my local shop the business but damn.....I'm heading to amazon more and more for this cause I can get it in a warp speed time frame instead of a few weeks.

 

[omega42]

Have a website with, at minimum, opening hours, a phone number, and directions. A picture or two of the shop is a good idea. If you have links off the home page they need to go to something useful. Facebook presence is OK for people who are into that but it is NOT a substitute for a website. A couple of people have mentioned Four Seasons has real time inventory up. Great feature but I understand why many small shops can't do bells and whistles like that. Services (with pricing where it makes sense) should be posted. Those don't change as quickly as inventory. Finally, update something on the home page at least once or twice a year. When I see a site that clearly hasn't changed in 4-5 years I figure it's a zombie site and probably a closed business.

 

[71olds442]

I use 2 gun shops in in the south coast 1 for guns and transfers and 1 for reloading supplies both have great costumer service and 15 $ transfers aren't bad

 

[BossHarley]

I appreciate a shop with helpful and knowledgable staff. Ones that are not afraid to give an opinion, but not stuff it down your throat or bash a company/product.

I don't appreciate the shops that are just "old boy network/hangouts". When you walk in 3-4 are tacking with someone behind the counter who never steps away to offer an actual paying customer some help.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[devo86]

Gun shops are going down the path alot of other brick and mortar stores went down. They now have to compete with bigger brand names stores (cabellas, bass pro, walmart) and online private sale venues (armslist, NES forum, cheaper than dirt, ect). The only thing you cant buy from a online vendor (and in most cases delivered directly to your door) is a firearms itself, everything else is fair play. Gun stores should know this but when i walk into some south shore stores and see a case of tula 7.62x39 for 400$ + tax that already has me viewing the place in a overpriced light. I fully appreciate the idea of supporting local business and i would love to buy from the local gun shops more but I cant stand to be outright gouged. People also have brought up charging a % of the firearm value for a transfer. I think that is ludicrous and would never have a firearm shipped to a store that does this.

 

[mark056]

One of the pitfalls is availability of product and this can also extend to gun shows. I prefer leather holsters, belts and magazine carriers knowing full well that kydex and nylon in some cases can provide superior materials, and frankly if I spent more time in a field environment I would use synthetic materials more but I don't and prefer fine leather craftsmanship.

While at a gun show recently, a local maker of leather holsters and accessories was displaying and selling his goods. Nice work fairly priced. I wanted to get a mag pouch for two double stack mags as I have decided to start carrying two extra mags instead of one. He didn't have one in stock but could send me one. Herein lies the problem, I can order from dozens of quality online vendors and makers. There was no inherent advantage forms, the customer to buy from this fine maker because I wanted the product now. It's not like I wanted something rare or exotic, this was a common accessory by a niche business/maker.


Obviously a LGS can't stock everything, but it seems as if common items are no longer in stock. 40 years ago I could walk into a shop and get what I wanted. Now they are willing to order it for me, but I can do that.


LGS owners will talk about keeping lowoverhead and not carry a lot of accessory items because people order online but does the tail wag the dog or the dog wag the tail? Do people buy online because they can't get stuff real time?frankly I want my stuff now and get tired of waiting for it to come via USPS or commercial carrier or have to Mae another trip to the LGS when the order does come in.

 

[edmxz2002]

I like any shop that tries to get to know the customers. I was in one shop buying a gun. the kid was holding my LTC in his hand but didn't take 2 seconds to look at it to get my name. Instead he called me dude 3 or 4 times in 10 minutes. When I go in that shop now I try to get someone else at the counter if I can.
Another shop I was just kind of window shopping, looking at a few guns. Another customer came in so I told the guy to take care of him as I was not ready to buy that day anyway. About a month later I went back in to get some ammo and the same guy saw me come in the door. He went out of his way to greet me and even remembered what used gun I was looking at my last visit. He said unfortunately that model XXX was sold but he had some other things I might be interested in. That just made me feel welcome and that someone was paying attention to their customers. At least for me a little goes a long way. And even know the second shop is a little extra drive, That's where I will go when I am looking for a new purchase.

 

[drgrant]

One of the pitfalls is availability of product and this can also extend to gun shows. I prefer leather holsters, belts and magazine carriers knowing full well that kydex and nylon in some cases can provide superior materials, and frankly if I spent more time in a field environment I would use synthetic materials more but I don't and prefer fine leather craftsmanship.

While at a gun show recently, a local maker of leather holsters and accessories was displaying and selling his goods. Nice work fairly priced. I wanted to get a mag pouch for two double stack mags as I have decided to start carrying two extra mags instead of one. He didn't have one in stock but could send me one. Herein lies the problem, I can order from dozens of quality online vendors and makers. There was no inherent advantage forms, the customer to buy from this fine maker because I wanted the product now. It's not like I wanted something rare or exotic, this was a common accessory by a niche business/maker.


Obviously a LGS can't stock everything, but it seems as if common items are no longer in stock. 40 years ago I could walk into a shop and get what I wanted. Now they are willing to order it for me, but I can do that.


LGS owners will talk about keeping lowoverhead and not carry a lot of accessory items because people order online but does the tail wag the dog or the dog wag the tail? Do people buy online because they can't get stuff real time?frankly I want my stuff now and get tired of waiting for it to come via USPS or commercial carrier or have to Mae another trip to the LGS when the order does come in.

The problem with premium grade holsters is you would end up with this wall of crap that is very, very expensive, so as a result, the market ends up being
pretty much varying grades of kydex, usually gutter stuff like Fobus, Blackhawk, etc. If you get lucky on the leather side some shops might have DeSantis or Don Hume, but that's not really saying a whole hell of a lot. Most serious people buy their holsters from a remote or have custom jobs done by people like the guy you encountered. Also skinflints are a huge problem. Years ago leather was it. You bought a leather holster or you simply weren't getting a holster. The skinflints couldn't chinse out. Now in 2016, joe fungohead skinflint will probably buy a fobus or an uncle mikes nylon holster over even an entry level leather holster thats like 40 or 50 bucks. On top of that the gun shop operator probably makes a better markup on the junk grade holsters than they do the ones made out of real leather.

ETA: As a point of contrast similar things happened in computing. For example there was a time where there literally were no shit grade inkjet printers to
be had. Then as the market got large companies started making these... because they wanted to cater to the skinflint set by getting the price down... so thus the skinflint oriented invention of the "$50 inkjet with the tubs of ink that are a quarter of the way full" was born... because consumers are ****ing cheapskate retards.

-Mike

 

[spcantwell]

Every retail business in the us is facing the exact same situation with internet sales. Most other businesses seem to figure out a way to make brick and mortar stores work, so what are they doing the gun shops are not doing?

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

 

[cfbackrow]

I went into a newer gun shop that is real local to me....four guys were shooting the shit with the counter guy...I had to ask 3 times to see a gun...liked the gun alot...bought it someplace else and never went back....nothing wrong with socializing but when a new customer walks in ...at least try to help...

 

[Pugnax88]

I feel like I have to give a shout out to my LGS, Minuteman Armory in Templeton, MA. They are only open a few days a week, but they are nights and weekends so it's pretty easy for me to get there after work. The selection of merchandise is great, they have a line of shop-built custom ARs (15s and 10s now) for reasonable prices. They do transfers for $25 I think, and all of the staff are great guys. I've never walked in and been treated poorly or been blown off. They've only been around for a little less than a year, but in my mind, they are killing it. It's worth the trip out to see Morgan and the guys.

 

[dooshorama]

Every retail business in the us is facing the exact same situation with internet sales. Most other businesses seem to figure out a way to make brick and mortar stores work, so what are they doing the gun shops are not doing?

i was recently thinking about giant electronic stores: the wiz, circuit city, tweeter all going out of business. and then there's best buy that has managed to stick around even though their pricing is not competitive in general. i'd like to know how they're doing it.

 

[Lip]

Right, ever try to get into Four Season's on a Saturday?

My shop is a mile or two from Four Season. I'd always shop Tues or weds am.

 

[jaymce]

I think small shops could do well by keeping a list to match used guns with people looking for those guns.

I'm not talking about used M&P40c but stuff that is hard to come by in this state. For example if a guy wants to trade in his Desert Eagle. The shop could refer to that list and then make a few calls, perhaps selling it or taking a pass because they don't have an interested buyer at the time.