Gun Free School Zone Act in NH

Glockster30

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Did a search.

An article in the UL has me confused about the GFSZA. The article states that a concealed carry permit allows one to carry a gun into or around a school zone as it meets both state and federal law. Is this just a NH thing for voting at a school polling location?



People who openly carry a gun into a school-based polling place would be violating federal law if they lack a concealed-carry permit, an FBI official said Friday.

The counter-intuitive advice - that a gun owner needs a permit to conceal a weapon if he wants to carry it in the open - comes as officials interpret the Gun Free School Zones Act, a 1996 federal law that restricts firearm possession in and around school property.

The law requires a gunowner to be licensed to possess a weapon inside a school zone, which entails public or private school property and public property such as streets and parks 1,000 feet around a school.

A concealed-carry permit, which is issued by local police, meets the licensing requirement for the Gun Free School act, state and federal officials say.


http://www.unionleader.com/Permit-needed-to-open-carry-at-school-polls
 
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ProGun

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So, sounds like a valid NH P&R is GTG for school carry in NH. Nice, I wasn't sure of that in any case in NH due to Federal law.
 
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**Disclaimer: I am not an attorney and this information is not legal advice. Always consult with a competent attorney for legal advice.**

The Gun Free School Zones Act is a train wreck in terms of legislation. It was struck down in the Lopez decision, but then resurrected by adding language that if the gun was used in interstate commerce then the law should apply. (As a side note: this is one of the most egregious examples of twisting the commerce clause to try and justify a law's existence.)

One of the exemptions to the 1,000 ft prohibited zone relies upon a license granted by the state's "law enforcement authorities". Two major issues:

1) You can get a Pistol and Revolver License in NH from your chief, but also your town's selectmen. Does this mean you are covered if you get your PRL from a chief in New Hampshire but not covered if you got it from your selectmen?

2) For states with constitutional carry (Vermont, Maine, Arizona, etc.), this would imply that every single person who carries within 1,000 feet of a school in those states is breaking the law.

There was a challenge in 1999 to the new version of the law and it ultimately failed because of the interstate commerce language that was added to the law.

This is terrible, terrible, arbitrary legislation that makes otherwise law-abiding people into criminals.

**Disclaimer: I am not an attorney and this information is not legal advice. Always consult with a competent attorney for legal advice.**
 
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**Disclaimer: I am not an attorney and this information is not legal advice. Always consult with a competent attorney for legal advice.**

The Gun Free School Zones Act is a train wreck in terms of legislation. It was struck down in the Lopez decision, but then resurrected by adding language that if the gun was used in interstate commerce then the law should apply. (As a side note: this is one of the most egregious examples of twisting the commerce clause to try and justify a law's existence.)

One of the exemptions to the 1,000 ft rule relies upon a license granted by the state's "law enforcement authorities". Two major issues:

1) You can get a Pistol and Revolver License in NH from your chief, but also your town's selectmen. Does this mean you are covered if you get your PRL from a chief in New Hampshire but not covered if you got it from your selectmen?

2) For states with constitutional carry (Vermont, Maine, Arizona, etc.), this would imply that every single person who carries within 1,000 feet of a school in those states is breaking the law.

There was a challenge in 1999 to the new version of the law and it ultimately failed because of the interstate commerce language that was added to the law.

This is terrible, terrible, arbitrary legislation that makes otherwise law-abiding people into criminals.

**Disclaimer: I am not an attorney and this information is not legal advice. Always consult with a competent attorney for legal advice.**
Hey, are you a lawyer? I've got a few legal questions for you.... [smile] [rofl]

The gun free school zones act is one of the worst pieces of legislature ever produced. It was an attempt to make carrying or possessing a firearm just about anywhere other than the middle of nowhere illegal. It's still awful, but it's being allowed because of the interstate commerce bull.
 

drgrant

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Depending on who you talk to NH PR licenses are NOT GFSZ compliant, because of the "may be issued by town official" bullshit in NH... according to GFSZ, the exemption only works if the permits can only be issued by law enforcement or other persons listed in the law. That having been said, IMHO your odds of winning the powerball are far better than getting arrested by the feds for carrying a gun with a permit in NH on school grounds. I would feel pretty safe carrying on a resident PR lic at a school in NH if my permit had been issued by your local PD. That's ME though, obviously everyone should make their own risk assessment.

-Mike
 
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Plenty said about the details of opinions on this.

As far as I know there is no actual case law on this in NH that would actually answer the question.
 
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No doubt somebody in NH is going to open carry to their polling place next month, but unless really obnoxious, I suspect no NH cops want to be the first to get involved in a GFSZA case.[thinking]

The Gun Free School Zones Act is a train wreck in terms of legislation. It was struck down in the Lopez decision, but then resurrected by adding language that if the gun was used in interstate commerce then the law should apply.
So the moral is: When you carry to the polls in NH, make sure grab the SIG with "Exeter, NH" on the slide?
 
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I've open carried my firearm to pickup my kids form school here in NH. Never a peep, even from the officers there directing traffic. Granted, that's not going in and walking around the halls. But it's no secret I carry and my kids all shoot.

So there you go. Yes, I have a CC permit.
 

drgrant

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No doubt somebody in NH is going to open carry to their polling place next month, but unless really obnoxious, I suspect no NH cops want to be the first to get involved in a GFSZA case.[thinking]

IIRC some years ago there was a guy who parked at a school in NH for a obama? or something political function and he had a loaded kel tec something or other in his vehicle. Somehow or another, some kind of security sweep turned up his gun (maybe his truck was unlocked, I forget the details, or the guy was profiled and he was there) and he had no PR license, and only got bagged on the "loaded handgun in an MV" thing and not GFSZ even though the vehicle was parked on school grounds. I really doubt there are many USAs/AUSAs eager to push a GFSZ case unless the conditions are particularly fitting for them politically.

-Mike
 
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**Disclaimer: I am not an attorney and this information is not legal advice. Always consult with a competent attorney for legal advice.**

The Gun Free School Zones Act is a train wreck in terms of legislation. It was struck down in the Lopez decision, but then resurrected by adding language that if the gun was used in interstate commerce then the law should apply. (As a side note: this is one of the most egregious examples of twisting the commerce clause to try and justify a law's existence.)

One of the exemptions to the 1,000 ft prohibited zone relies upon a license granted by the state's "law enforcement authorities". Two major issues:

1) You can get a Pistol and Revolver License in NH from your chief, but also your town's selectmen. Does this mean you are covered if you get your PRL from a chief in New Hampshire but not covered if you got it from your selectmen?

2) For states with constitutional carry (Vermont, Maine, Arizona, etc.), this would imply that every single person who carries within 1,000 feet of a school in those states is breaking the law.

There was a challenge in 1999 to the new version of the law and it ultimately failed because of the interstate commerce language that was added to the law.

This is terrible, terrible, arbitrary legislation that makes otherwise law-abiding people into criminals.

**Disclaimer: I am not an attorney and this information is not legal advice. Always consult with a competent attorney for legal advice.**

Good assessment.

The law is also a problem for people carrying on reciprocity. If I carry a gun in Texas on my MA LTC within 1,000 feet of a school, I'm in violation of he law because the license under which I'm carrying that gun was not issued by the state in which the school zone is located.

Exceptions:
if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;
 

ScottS

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IIRC some years ago there was a guy who parked at a school in NH for a obama? or something political function and he had a loaded kel tec something or other in his vehicle. Somehow or another, some kind of security sweep turned up his gun (maybe his truck was unlocked, I forget the details, or the guy was profiled and he was there) and he had no PR license, and only got bagged on the "loaded handgun in an MV" thing and not GFSZ even though the vehicle was parked on school grounds. I really doubt there are many USAs/AUSAs eager to push a GFSZ case unless the conditions are particularly fitting for them politically.

-Mike

This. It was the perfect excuse to enforce GFZA in NH if they were inclined to do so. Everyone was in a tizzy, but the State Police and Sec Service stated the only thing they could charge him with was loaded gun in the vehicle (after he got back in) without a P&RL.
 

MaverickNH

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Somehow, the Gun Free Zone always gets mingled with mention of unarmed security guards. Well, at least in Bedford, NH, there's lots of armed police at the elections. Not that I like, or condone, leaving ones' life in the hands of others, but at least there's armed security at our polling places.
 
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I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but being banned from carrying on school or university grounds is the biggest load of bullshit ever and a blatant violation of the 14th amendment right to equal protection under the law. What, because I happen to have chosen the profession of a teacher/university researcher, I don't deserve the right to self defense at my place of work? Unlike oh, every other profession imaginable? And then what about when I leave to go home? I'm supposed to just teleport my gun to myself after I've left University property so I'm safe for the long walk home? [angry]
 

rlee

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So my NH non-resident permit allows me to carry on school property while in NH?
I couldn't find anything that said that I had to be a resident.
 
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So my NH non-resident permit allows me to carry on school property while in NH?
I couldn't find anything that said that I had to be a resident.

You may be in a safer position doing that than a resident would be because all non-resident licenses in NH are approved by law enforcement (the state police), so there would be no argument on that point.
 
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So the moral is: When you carry to the polls in NH, make sure grab the SIG with "Exeter, NH" on the slide?

You would think that, but remember that the interstate commerce clause was stretched to include basically everything, even things that never even crossed a state line or even were sold. If you really want your head to explode, read the case of Wickard vs Filburn.

The executive summary of that case basically reads like this: A farmer who grew his own crops, never sold them, and never even crossed a state line with them was within the alleged purview of the interstate commerce clause. A ruling like this basically invalidates the notion of delegated powers to the Federal government since this ruling essentially states that anything anywhere would be covered by this interpretation of the clause and thus subject to Federal regulation.
 
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IIRC some years ago there was a guy who parked at a school in NH for a obama? or something political function and he had a loaded kel tec something or other in his vehicle. Somehow or another, some kind of security sweep turned up his gun (maybe his truck was unlocked, I forget the details, or the guy was profiled and he was there) and he had no PR license, and only got bagged on the "loaded handgun in an MV" thing and not GFSZ even though the vehicle was parked on school grounds. I really doubt there are many USAs/AUSAs eager to push a GFSZ case unless the conditions are particularly fitting for them politically.

-Mike

This. It was the perfect excuse to enforce GFZA in NH if they were inclined to do so. Everyone was in a tizzy, but the State Police and Sec Service stated the only thing they could charge him with was loaded gun in the vehicle (after he got back in) without a P&RL.

Let's not conflate what they elected to charge him with versus what they could have.

We all saw what happened on 7/20 with an attorney general that decided to interpret the law in an arbitrary fashion. In some cases this is even worse.

Say an attorney general like that is elected in a state with constitutional carry and someone gets jammed up exercising their rights by simply driving within 1,000 ft of a school while carrying and then is pulled over. Would you want to be the guy who now has to defend himself against a prosecuting attorney who had both the black letter law plus a precedent testing that law already on their side?

Anyone who doesn't fit into the specified exemptions are "felons in waiting"; some prosecutors just haven't taken action yet. Sound familiar?
 

ScottS

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Let's not conflate what they elected to charge him with versus what they could have.

We all saw what happened on 7/20 with an attorney general that decided to interpret the law in an arbitrary fashion. In some cases this is even worse.

Say an attorney general like that is elected in a state with constitutional carry and someone gets jammed up exercising their rights by simply driving within 1,000 ft of a school while carrying and then is pulled over. Would you want to be the guy who now has to defend himself against a prosecuting attorney who had both the black letter law plus a precedent testing that law already on their side?

Anyone who doesn't fit into the specified exemptions are "felons in waiting"; some prosecutors just haven't taken action yet. Sound familiar?

Nobody conflated anything.

Both the Dr and I commented on a circumstance that provided the perfect opportunity to charge someone with violation of the GFZA, followed by admissions by the State Police and the Secret Service that they could not charge him with anything other than having a loaded gun in a vehicle without a P&RL.

I believe we both felt "the reader is left to interpret that fact pattern however they choose."

By the way, this whole "would you like to be the test case" thing is specious at best, and asinine at worst. No one wants to be the test case for anything, but you can't live your entire life walking around afraid to exercise any rights for fear of being "the test case."
 

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The law is also a problem for people carrying on reciprocity. If I carry a gun in Texas on my MA LTC within 1,000 feet of a school, I'm in violation of he law because the license under which I'm carrying that gun was not issued by the state in which the school zone is located.

Exceptions:
if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;

That is the ATF's opinion of the law, but I look at it this way: if the state you are in honors your carry license, you are licensed by that state. If you weren't, you would be carrying without a license.
 

drgrant

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Let's not conflate what they elected to charge him with versus what they could have.
It's not quite that simple, to get a GFSZ charge they would have had to punt the case to the feds, who would have had to accept it and file charges of their own.

We all saw what happened on 7/20 with an attorney general that decided to interpret the law in an arbitrary fashion. In some cases this is even worse.

I don't really understand what some garbage going on in shitsville (MA) has anything to do with this issue, but I guess I'll play along...

Say an attorney general like that is elected in a state with constitutional carry and someone gets jammed up exercising their rights by simply driving within 1,000 ft of a school while carrying and then is pulled over. Would you want to be the guy who now has to defend himself against a prosecuting attorney who had both the black letter law plus a precedent testing that law already on their side?

The AG would still have to convince the feds to prosecute, who might be reluctant to do so because politics. A state level AG can't pursue federal charges on their own. USAs and AUSAs usually only take the meatiest
cases, although we've seen some get taken that were of dubious value, but most of the ones I've seen didn't
involve bagging someone on a thin technicality in the law. My point with the example I provided is that guy
was "even more fresh meat" than someone who actually had a P/R license, and he still didn't get prosecuted...

Anyone who doesn't fit into the specified exemptions are "felons in waiting"; some prosecutors just haven't taken action yet. Sound familiar?

If you want to believe that, fine. I think people should make up their own minds and make their own risk assessment. I however won't be running around being afraid of my own shadow over the possibility of some thin interpretation on the prosecution side. IMHO my odds of winning the powerball are better than getting bagged for GFSZ.

-Mike
 
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You would think that, but remember that the interstate commerce clause was stretched to include basically everything, even things that never even crossed a state line or even were sold. If you really want your head to explode, read the case of Wickard vs Filburn.

The executive summary of that case basically reads like this: A farmer who grew his own crops, never sold them, and never even crossed a state line with them was within the alleged purview of the interstate commerce clause. A ruling like this basically invalidates the notion of delegated powers to the Federal government since this ruling essentially states that anything anywhere would be covered by this interpretation of the clause and thus subject to Federal regulation.

Ahh yes.

You see, if you have your own vegetable garden for personal use, that falls under federal regulations governing interstate commerce, because if not for your garden, you might otherwise have bought vegetables at a store, that came from another state. See, your garden has an impact on interstate commerce by allowing you to not engage in it! Ergo, we can regulate it.

Yes, the government overreach is indeed that far and they are that corrupt. It is sad.
 
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An article in the UL has me confused about the GFSZA. The article states that a concealed carry permit allows one to carry a gun into or around a school zone as it meets both state and federal law. Is this just a NH thing for voting at a school polling location?
Looking at the Union Leader article, the FBI is saying that NH P&R satisifies the GFSZA, and that it is okay for a NH resident to open carry at a school polling place with a P&R. FBI also says this is not just a NH thing:
Union Leader said:
People who openly carry a gun into a school-based polling place would be violating federal law if they lack a concealed-carry permit, an FBI official said Friday.
. . .
A concealed-carry permit, which is issued by local police, meets the licensing requirement for the Gun Free School act, state and federal officials say.

In open carry states, a person who brings a gun into a school polling place on Election Day would be in violation of federal law if the gun were not licensed, said Enza Sheehan, a spokesman for the FBI.
. . .
"If a voter does not have a concealed carry permit and carries a firearm into the school while voting, that person may be violating federal law," said (New Hampshire) Senior Assistant Attorney General Brian Buonamano last week.
Buonamano said local election officials, local police and state police cannot enforce the Gun Free School Zones Act, which is a federal law. He said anyone who feels a voter is violating the school gun law should contact the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives or U.S. Attorney for New Hampshire.

"He's trying to be a jerk. He's trying to start trouble," said Penny Dean, a Concord lawyer who is a Second Amendment advocate.
. . .
(clipped a bunch of noise about voter intimidation)
. . .
His office has suggested that communities place a local police officer at polling places, although he acknowledged that local police and election officials cannot enforce the School Zones law.
So everybody quoted in this article recognizes that open carry is a right in New Hampshire, including the right to open carry to the polls, and they believe (mistakenly or not) that the NH P&R license allows carry in school zones.

Any bets on the outcome of open carry into a school polling place in RI or MA?
 
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Any bets on the outcome of open carry into a school polling place in RI or MA?

Yup, for MA. MGL prohibits anyone (even with LTC) from carrying (OC or CCW) on school grounds at any time unless they are a LEO. Since that is state law, it can be and has been enforced on those that have crossed that line.
 
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No doubt somebody in NH is going to open carry to their polling place next month, but unless really obnoxious, I suspect no NH cops want to be the first to get involved in a GFSZA case.[thinking]


So the moral is: When you carry to the polls in NH, make sure grab the SIG with "Exeter, NH" on the slide?

LOL, but frame was made in Germany? What to do?
 
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