Gun club closed because of pollution from spent bullets

[Reptile]

Lean in the water????
CASTRO VALLEY, Calif. – The East Bay Regional Park District voted Tuesday to close the Chabot Gun Club amid concerns that taxpayers will be stuck having to pay millions of dollars to clean up pollution from spent bullets.
The Oakland Tribune reported the unanimous vote came after more than five hours of comments in a room packed with nearly 500 people.

The club's owner will have 1 year to close down.

Neighbors and environmentalists have criticized the club as a toxic headache, while supporters say the range is a place to learn about gun safety and practice marksmanship.

Lead from bullets is leaching into groundwater and creeks that flow into Lake Chabot, which is supposed to provide a backup drinking-water supply for the East Bay Municipal Utility District. A Park district spokeswoman said no trace of lead has been found in the lake.

The news of Chabot's closure comes just four months after San Francisco's last gun shop was shuttered in the face of proposed city regulations.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/03/0...ion-from-spent-bullets.html?intcmp=latestnews
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That's not how this works. That's not how any of this works!!!
Lead from bullets does not leach into water.
Could they not have found an expert to testify on the subject?

 

[rivet_42]

Yeah, it happens. Seriously. It's part of why the public range at Lake Nockamixon in PA got closed down maybe a decade ago. There were also noise complaints from the neighbors so the lead issue may have been real or it may have been a pretext.

 

[M1911]

That's not how this works. That's not how any of this works!!!
Lead from bullets does not leach into water.
Could they not have found an expert to testify on the subject?

Under the right conditions, it can leach into the water. Usually it won't travel far, but it depends upon the soil and water chemistry and the geology. It is more of an issue for shotgun ranges than it is for rifle ranges.

 

[JohnZ]

Bet they're not even considering closing down tire shops because of all the lead weights they use.

 

[M1911]

Bet they're not even considering closing down tire shops because of all the lead weights they use.

As long as the lead weights are inside the shop, then they aren't exposed to rain, so there will be no lead leaching into the groundwater.

In contrast, at a shotgun range you have millions of small lead pellets with very large surface areas. Acidic rain will cause those lead pellets to degrade and the lead to become soluble. In most soil conditions it won't be very mobile, but it can be under the right conditions.

A rifle range has less of an issue, but if the backstop is not sheltered from rain, you can also get lead leaching from the rain.

Lead pollution may or may not be the real issue in this case. That said, as gun owners we should not pretend that there is no pollution issue. There very well can be and we should address it head on and get out in front of the problem.

 

[mac1911]

lead wheel weights have been banned in many states. It wont be long before the declare lead itself as a hazardous material. right now it is just a hazard to your health. Guys they are looking for any reason to shut the places down.... EVERY WHERE

 

[JohnZ]

As long as the lead weights are inside the shop, then they aren't exposed to rain, so there will be no lead leaching into the groundwater.

Not sure what you're getting at here. Pretty tough to balance a wheel if you keep the weights in the shop.

My point is that wheel weights are exposed to the same or harsher elements as the lead at the range but they don't care about that. I'm not saying that there isn't a problem at the range.

 

[DW357]

Under the right conditions, it can leach into the water. Usually it won't travel far, but it depends upon the soil and water chemistry and the geology. It is more of an issue for shotgun ranges than it is for rifle ranges.

Yep, good ol' geochemistry.

 

[DW357]

My point is that wheel weights are exposed to the same or harsher elements as the lead at the range but they don't care about that. I'm not saying that there isn't a problem at the range.

I think "they" are aware that brake dust and small amounts of lead from wheel weights get washed into storm drains? I suppose it's possible to get into the groundwater depending on the infrastructure of the road and the geology adjacent to the roads? Not sure.

 

[DW357]

In contrast, at a shotgun range you have millions of small lead pellets with very large surface areas. Acidic rain will cause those lead pellets to degrade and the lead to become soluble. In most soil conditions it won't be very mobile, but it can be under the right conditions.

In the 5 years I've been a EPA contractor, we've cleaned up 2 ranges in MA (Athol rod & gun club and Agawam Sportsmens Club). Currently we're cleaning an abandoned range (Mukluk Preserve) in Baltic, CT with lead being the driver/contaminant of concern in all 3 of these sites. The lead pellets from shotguns is the biggest "issue" as well as PAHs from clay pigeons.

I wasn't involved in these sites but my coworkers were. I can't speak on any groundwater contamination but I could certainly look up the files to find out (or if you do a quck google search of these site names you should find some info from EPA). I think it was pretty much excavating the contaminated soil and using a XRF and fixed labs to confirm where the contamination ended.

I wish I was working at my current employer when they did the site investigation at Dan Wesson Arms in Monson. From the photos I've seen and reports I read, it was a former elementary school lol. Had a firing range in the basement

 

[rivet_42]

There's been a push to eliminate lead solder in electronics in recent years as well, because of the possibility of lead leaching into groundwater from discarded electronics in landfills. In Europe that's known as the "RoHS" initiative and a lot of electronics you buy are labeled with a symbol for it.

Science marches on. We used to think that small concentrations of stuff that couldn't hurt anybody; now we find out that yeah, they actually do do quite a bit of harm. I know environmentalism is a thing of the left but let's be real. We can't treat the planet like a toilet and we can't shove the costs of disposal and cleanup and so forth onto succeeding generations.

 

[SteelShooter]

no lead wheel weights allowed in commiefornia, as others have said, many other states banned too.

 

[DW357]

Science marches on. We used to think that small concentrations of stuff that couldn't hurt anybody; now we find out that yeah, they actually do do quite a bit of harm. I know environmentalism is a thing of the left but let's be real. We can't treat the planet like a toilet and we can't shove the costs of disposal and cleanup and so forth onto succeeding generations.

Agreed. I see sites from investigation to cleanup/restoration and it's amazing the amount of s*** that gets dumped/abandoned whether it be below ground and above ground.

Disposal ain't cheap either. Running soil samples for full suite analyses including lead leachability (TCLP - toxicity characteristic leaching procedure) is around $1,000 per sample. It gets expensive quick. My last few big EPA removal sites were $1M-$2M with one particular site going over $10M...

 

[drgrant]

There's been a push to eliminate lead solder in electronics in recent years as well, because of the possibility of lead leaching into groundwater from discarded electronics in landfills. In Europe that's known as the "RoHS" initiative and a lot of electronics you buy are labeled with a symbol for it.

Science marches on. We used to think that small concentrations of stuff that couldn't hurt anybody; now we find out that yeah, they actually do do quite a bit of harm. I know environmentalism is a thing of the left but let's be real. We can't treat the planet like a toilet and we can't shove the costs of disposal and cleanup and so forth onto succeeding generations.

The thing is 9 out of 10 times the eco nazi stuff is overblown; there are a bunch of people trying to massage a gun clubs relatively minor contamination issues into being the next love canal or bhopal disaster. The obvious ulterior motive with gun clubs and contamination is obvious, particularly in a moonbat shithole like CA. This is an obvious tack that the antis will use as a tool to try to destroy american gun culture. Thankfully so far things haven't gone so far where the ones I know of in MA could not reopen or anything like that, but it wouldn't take much for someone to go full retard. It seems like the trend in MA is for range modification being demanded vs full blown remediation...

-Mike

 

[ToddDubya]

There's been a push to eliminate lead solder in electronics in recent years as well, because of the possibility of lead leaching into groundwater from discarded electronics in landfills. In Europe that's known as the "RoHS" initiative and a lot of electronics you buy are labeled with a symbol for it.

Science marches on. We used to think that small concentrations of stuff that couldn't hurt anybody; now we find out that yeah, they actually do do quite a bit of harm. I know environmentalism is a thing of the left but let's be real. We can't treat the planet like a toilet and we can't shove the costs of disposal and cleanup and so forth onto succeeding generations.

RoHS translated into plain English is "worse solder joints". Where I work we thankfully aren't allowed to use RoHS for that reason. Our stuff has to last decades, not months.

ETA: Every time a gun range is closed due to lead I pour a quart of used motor oil on a baby seal. It looks like it's time for a trip to the beach.

 

[wahsben]

If I remember correctly when stuff like this has been brought up before, the research showed that once the lead had oxidized that it didn't leach out into its surroundings.

 

[Wrench75]

We can't treat the planet like a toilet and we can't shove the costs of disposal and cleanup and so forth onto succeeding generations.

Whatever. AFAIC I'm just putting the lead back where it came from.

 

[M1911]

Not sure what you're getting at here. Pretty tough to balance a wheel if you keep the weights in the shop.

My point is that wheel weights are exposed to the same or harsher elements as the lead at the range but they don't care about that. I'm not saying that there isn't a problem at the range.

FFS.

It is long past time that we take our head out of the sand (or other places) and realize that under certain conditions lead from shooting ranges can indeed cause lead pollution.

- - - Updated - - -

Whatever. AFAIC I'm just putting the lead back where it came from.

Lead in the environment is not concentrated into tiny little pellets and then dispersed and exposed to acidic rainwater. So, no, you aren't just putting lead back where it came from. First, the lead you are depositing didn't come from where you left and second, it wasn't in that form when it was mined. And, yes, these things do, in fact, effect how mobile it will be in groundwater.

 

[xtry51]

No lead found in the water, so I'm not sure what, beyond unsubstantiated liberal fearmongering, everyone here is talking about. The article says no lead was found in the water. The issue should have ended there. Instead, because it's CA, people who aren't scientists and who have no facts again use the law to stop things they don't like.

 

[M1911]

No lead found in the water, so I'm not sure what, beyond unsubstantiated liberal fearmongering, everyone here is talking about. The article says no lead was found in the water. The issue should have ended there. Instead, because it's CA, people who aren't scientists and who have no facts again use the law to stop things they don't like.

If no lead was found in the water, then they should be able to refute the claims, provided they hire the appropriately qualified people do an appropriate investigation.

That said, I am aware of samples taken from a disused shotgun range here in MA that did, indeed, show low levels of lead in the groundwater. The levels were low and did not travel beyond the extent of the shotgun range.

My point is that shooting ranges can, under certain circumstances, cause lead pollution. The best way for a club to deal with this is to get out in front of this issue with a lead management plan, so that when the neighbors who are actually pissed about noise (or are just 2-A antis) start whining about lead, the club is armed with a solid lead management plan already in place.

 

[gearjunky13]

Nation wide in plumbing your to use only lead free brass and parts, the lead made the brass softer so i would take better to threadding and be less likely to crack when useing it on a tapered ips thread, that being said, you got to be carfull not to over tighten LF brass ips fittings, and cleen brass extra good befor you solder it,

I feel the EPA dose over react alot, (like why cant they just clean up the range every so often and reopen)I do believe since we are living here we need to keep the place as clean as possible,

but this planet is doomed to be destroyed some day long in the future, and we need to continue on moving and progressing forwarded in tecnology, i feel the EPA and like organizations hurt this progression sometimes with out any real good reasons but to seem like there doing something,

 

[Wrench75]

Whatever. AFAIC I'm just putting the lead back where it came from.

Lead in the environment is not concentrated into tiny little pellets and then dispersed and exposed to acidic rainwater. So, no, you aren't just putting lead back where it came from. First, the lead you are depositing didn't come from where you left and second, it wasn't in that form when it was mined. And, yes, these things do, in fact, effect how mobile it will be in groundwater.

Not to interrupt yet another of your pedantic posts, but clearly you missed the point of the winking smiley at the end of my post. It is called sarcasm. As the saying goes, if you don't get the joke you are the joke. Carry on.

 

[M1911]

Not to interrupt yet another of your pedantic posts, but clearly you missed the point of the winking smiley at the end of my post. It is called sarcasm. As the saying goes, if you don't get the joke you are the joke. Carry on.

I see so you didn't really mean what posted and therefore you agree that lead from ranges can, in certain conditions, cause pollution?

 

[Wrench75]

I see so you didn't really mean what posted and therefore you agree that lead from ranges can, in certain conditions, cause pollution?

Which is why I only shoot solid copper projos on my property. Except for 22lr which is only shot into railroad ties that capture the round and can easily be removed for disposal. I'm in the unincorporated part of the county so everyone in the area, myself included, has wells for our water supply. It's also why, in the past, I have volunteered my time to help w/ lead cleanup at local pistol houses and ranges.

 

[Spanz]

ugh, coming to an EPA gestapo office near you....

 

[jkelly1229]

Lean in the water????
CASTRO VALLEY, Calif. – The East Bay Regional Park District voted Tuesday to close the Chabot Gun Club amid concerns that taxpayers will be stuck having to pay millions of dollars to clean up pollution from spent bullets.
The Oakland Tribune reported the unanimous vote came after more than five hours of comments in a room packed with nearly 500 people.

The club's owner will have 1 year to close down.

Neighbors and environmentalists have criticized the club as a toxic headache, while supporters say the range is a place to learn about gun safety and practice marksmanship.

Lead from bullets is leaching into groundwater and creeks that flow into Lake Chabot, which is supposed to provide a backup drinking-water supply for the East Bay Municipal Utility District. A Park district spokeswoman said no trace of lead has been found in the lake.

The news of Chabot's closure comes just four months after San Francisco's last gun shop was shuttered in the face of proposed city regulations.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/03/0...ion-from-spent-bullets.html?intcmp=latestnews
-----
That's not how this works. That's not how any of this works!!!
Lead from bullets does not leach into water.
Could they not have found an expert to testify on the subject?

What do you mean have you never heard of the lead cycle. It's like the water cycle but with lead and less rain

 

[SteelShooter]

so what affect to my depleted uranium rounds have on the local environment?

 

[economist]

If no lead was found in the water, then they should be able to refute the claims, provided they hire the appropriately qualified people do an appropriate investigation.

That said, I am aware of samples taken from a disused shotgun range here in MA that did, indeed, show low levels of lead in the groundwater. The levels were low and did not travel beyond the extent of the shotgun range.

My point is that shooting ranges can, under certain circumstances, cause lead pollution. The best way for a club to deal with this is to get out in front of this issue with a lead management plan, so that when the neighbors who are actually pissed about noise (or are just 2-A antis) start whining about lead, the club is armed with a solid lead management plan already in place.

+1. Facts matter. There is a reason to be suspicious of environmentalists --- they very often use the cloak of environmental safety to wrap up their baseless political agenda. So, never trust them. But, that doesn't mean they can't be right now and then.

 

[ToddDubya]

We're from the government and we're here to make sure you don't pollute.

http://www.northeastshooters.com/vb...Near-Durango?p=4603199&viewfull=1#post4603199

 

[wahsben]

Didn't lead shot actually land in the water at that range though? How much lead pollution has occurred in the water sources around Civil war battlefields which are loaded with lead? As I said I remember reading a research paper that stated once oxidization occurs the lead stops leaching, whether that is actually the case or not I don't know.The problem with shot and lead sinkers that got in the water was that waterfowl was swallowing them which is a different situation.

If no lead was found in the water, then they should be able to refute the claims, provided they hire the appropriately qualified people do an appropriate investigation.

That said, I am aware of samples taken from a disused shotgun range here in MA that did, indeed, show low levels of lead in the groundwater. The levels were low and did not travel beyond the extent of the shotgun range.

My point is that shooting ranges can, under certain circumstances, cause lead pollution. The best way for a club to deal with this is to get out in front of this issue with a lead management plan, so that when the neighbors who are actually pissed about noise (or are just 2-A antis) start whining about lead, the club is armed with a solid lead management plan already in place.