Guarded Optimism

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Well...there are several items that have come up in last few days which merit some attention, I think, and the good news is that they are positive.

First, I was really impressed with President Bush's address on Iraq last night. My only wish is that he would have made it two years ago.

Second, The Iraqi elections appear to have been successful.

Third, The Boson Globe ran a page 1 article on 12/17 on how the Democrats are relooking their position on gun control. (The article is now archived, meaning you have to pay to retrieve it, I meant to get a link up earlier :( but here is the abstract: WASHINGTON The Democratic Party, long identified with gun control, is rethinking its approach to the gun debate, seeking to improve the chances of its candidates in Western states where hunters have been wary of casting votes for a party with a national reputation of being against guns. )

These are all moves in the right direction, in my estimation, so today I think I'll start out with the glass being half full :D

Regards,

Mark
 
Agreed. Dubya did a very good job last night, and I just love how he used a very diplomatic approach in explaining that the liberal media is nothing more than a group of bold face lying dipshits.

Yes 2 years ago would have been better, but it's better late than never.

Adam
 
Some Democrats have been pro-gun forever.

But, that being said, I will NOT trust the Liberal faction of the DNC to actually change their stance. I don't trust Liberals, and never will.

Of course, my definition of a Liberal isn't the same as some folks. Many people that some call Liberals, to me are NOT, they're just Moderates with a slight left bent. That's OK. Mark, I think you'll find yourself in this group. A REASONABLE Democrat. We have some in VT as well.

But the likes of the "KKK" (Kerry, Kennedy and Klinton) bunch will tell ANY lie they have to in order to stay in office or move up. And with the likes of Pelosi, Schumer and Dean, they're killing the party.

The DNC has to do a LOT of damage control after what's happened to the party over the last 5 years, or face slow extinction. Two bozo candidates for President, due to the LIberals controlling the party didn't help. There were Dems that could've easily won the elections, IF they could get nominated.

You know, what I really want is a Presidential Election where I have a tough time making my choice, because they're both so GOOD.

The last couple of times, it's been a tough choice, because they're both so BAD. I call that "The lesser of 2 evils", and I'm sick of it.
 
Although this appears to favor gun owners, it is yet another example of how power-mongering democrats hold no values. They simply change their stance depending on which way they think the 'political' wind is blowing.
 
The part about gun control isn't even a change. Ever since the 2000 election, they've been trying to change the sound of their platform on guns: Oh, yeah, we really do believe in the 2nd Amendment and the "right" to hunt; we're just proposing some common-sense safety regulations, not gun control.

Anybody who believes it might be interested in a large bridge that my family has for sale. It's a really good investment, connecting Manhatten with Long Island; you could get rich off the tools you'd collect.

Ken
 
I laugh at their lame attempts to seperate us.

There is NO "Right to Hunt". There is a "Right to Defend the Country" (and yourself).

You have a hunting rifle, it is probably NOT protected by the Constitution.

You have an AR-15, M1, M14, FAL, AK, or older military bolt action rifle, or ANY handgun, it IS protected by the Constitution.

If you don't believe me, do your homework, start with US v Miller.
 
Nickle said:
I laugh at their lame attempts to seperate us.

There is NO "Right to Hunt". There is a "Right to Defend the Country" (and yourself).

You have a hunting rifle, it is probably NOT protected by the Constitution.

You have an AR-15, M1, M14, FAL, AK, or older military bolt action rifle, or ANY handgun, it IS protected by the Constitution.

If you don't believe me, do your homework, start with US v Miller.

Please save us some time and post some links if you have them.

Adam
 
For you Adam (and others), of course.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=US+v+Miller&btnG=Google+Search

In the quote below, pay close attention. The "Militia" is "civilians primarily, soldiers on occasion" and "These show plainly enough that the Militia comprised all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense". Also, the sawed off shotgun Miller had was successfully argued to be "part of the ordinary military equipment or that its use could contribute to the common defense".


http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=307&invol=174

U.S. Supreme Court
UNITED STATES v. MILLER, 307 U.S. 174 (1939)
307 U.S. 174

UNITED STATES
v.
MILLER et al.
No. 696.

Argued March 30, 1939.
Decided May 15, 1939.



Appeal from the District Court of the United States for the Western District of Arkansas. [307 U.S. 174, 175] Mr. Gordon Dean, of Washington, D.C., for the United States.

No appearance for appellees.


Mr. Justice McREYNOLDS delivered the opinion of the Court.

An indictment in the District Court Western District Arkansas, charged that Jack Miller and Frank Layton 'did unlawfully, knowingly, wilfully, and feloniously transport in interstate commerce from the town of Claremore in the State of Oklahoma to the town of Siloam Springs in the State of Arkansas a certain firearm, to-wit, a double barrel 12-gauge Stevens shotgun having a barrel less than 18 inches in length, bearing identification number 76230, said defendants, at the time of so transporting said firearm in interstate commerce as aforesaid, not having registered said firearm as required by Section 1132d of Title 26, United States Code, 26 U.S.C.A. 1132d (Act of June 26, 1934, c. 757, Sec. 5, 48 Stat. 1237), and not having in their possession a stamp-affixed written order for said firearm as provided by Section 1132c, Title 26, United States Code, 26 U.S.C.A. 1132c (June 26, 1934, c. 757, Sec. 4, 48 Stat. 1237) and the regulations issued under authority of the said Act of Congress known as the 'National Firearms Act' approved June 26, 1934, contrary to the form of the statute in such case made and provided, and against the peace and dignity of the United States.' 1 [307 U.S. 174, 176] A duly interposed demurrer alleged: The National Firearms Act is not a revenue measure but an attempt to usurp police power reserved to the States, and is therefore unconstitutional. Also, it offends the inhibition of the Second Amendment to the Constitution, U.S.C.A.-'A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.' [307 U.S. 174, 177] The District Court held that section 11 of the Act violates the Second Amendment. It accordingly sustained the demurrer and quashed the indictment.

The cause is here by direct appeal.

Considering Sonzinsky v. United States, 1937, 300 U.S. 506, 513 , 57 S. Ct. 554, and what was ruled in sundry causes aris- [307 U.S. 174, 178] ing under the Harrison Narcotic Act2-United States v. Jin Fuey Moy, 1916, 241 U.S. 394 , 36 S.Ct. 658, Ann.Cas.1917D, 854; United States v. Doremus, 1919, 249 U.S. 86, 94 , 39 S.Ct. 214; Linder v. United States, 1925, 268 U.S. 5 , 45 S.Ct. 446, 39 A.L.R. 229; Alston v. United States, 1927, 274 U.S. 289 , 47 S.Ct. 634; Nigro v. United States, 1928, 276 U.S. 332 , 48 S.Ct. 388-the objection that the Act usurps police power reserved to the States is plainly untenable.

In the absence of any evidence tending to show that possession or use of a 'shotgun having a barrel of less than eighteen inches in length' at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument. Certainly it is not within judicial notice that this weapon is any part of the ordinary military equipment or that its use could contribute to the common defense. Aymette v. State of Tennessee, 2 Humph., Tenn., 154, 158.

The Constitution as originally adopted granted to the Congress power- 'To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions; To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress.' U.S.C.A.Const. art. 1, 8. With obvious purpose to assure the continuation and render possible the effectiveness of such forces the declaration and guarantee of the Second Amendment were made. It must be interpreted and applied with that end in view.

The Militia which the States were expected to maintain and train is set in contrast with Troops which they [307 U.S. 174, 179] were forbidden to keep without the consent of Congress. The sentiment of the time strongly disfavored standing armies; the common view was that adequate defense of country and laws could be secured through the Militia- civilians primarily, soldiers on occasion.

The signification attributed to the term Militia appears from the debates in the Convention, the history and legislation of Colonies and States, and the writings of approved commentators. These show plainly enough that the Militia comprised all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense. 'A body of citizens enrolled for military discipline.' And further, that ordinarily when called for service these men were expected to appear bearing arms supplied by themselves and of the kind in common use at the time.

Blackstone's Commentaries, Vol. 2, Ch. 13, p. 409 points out 'that king Alfred first settled a national militia in this kingdom' and traces the subsequent development and use of such forces.

Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations, Book V. Ch. 1, contains an extended account of the Militia. It is there said: 'Men of republican principles have been jealous of a standing army as dangerous to liberty.' 'In a militia, the character of the labourer, artificer, or tradesman, predominates over that of the soldier: in a standing army, that of the soldier predominates over every other character; and in this distinction seems to consist the essential difference between those two different species of military force.'

'The American Colonies In The 17th Century', Osgood, Vol. 1, ch. XIII, affirms in reference to the early system of defense in New England-
'In all the colonies, as in England, the militia system was based on the principle of the assize of arms. This implied the general obligation of all adult male inhabitants to possess arms, and, with certain exceptions, to [307 U.S. 174, 180] cooperate in the work of defence.' 'The possession of arms also implied the possession of ammunition, and the authorities paid quite as much attention to the latter as to the former.' 'A year later (1632) it was ordered that any single man who had not furnished himself with arms might be put out to service, and this became a permanent part of the legislation of the colony (Massachusetts).'
Also 'Clauses intended to insure the possession of arms and ammunition by all who were subject to military service appear in all the important enactments concerning military affairs. Fines were the penalty for delinquency, whether of towns or individuals. According to the usage of the times, the infantry of Massachusetts consisted of pikemen and musketeers. The law, as enacted in 1649 and thereafter, provided that each of the former should be armed with a pike, corselet, head-piece, sword, and knapsack. The musketeer should carry a 'good fixed musket,' not under bastard musket bore, not less than three feet, nine inches, nor more than four feet three inches in length, a priming wire, scourer, and mould, a sword, rest, bandoleers, one pound of powder, twenty bullets, and two fathoms of match. The law also required that two-thirds of each company should be musketeers.'

The General Court of Massachusetts, January Session 1784 (Laws and Resolves 1784, c. 55, pp. 140, 142), provided for the organization and government of the Militia. It directed that the Train Band should 'contain all able bodied men, from sixteen to forty years of age, and the Alarm List, all other men under sixty years of age, ....' Also, 'That every non-commissioned officer and private soldier of the said militia not under the controul of parents, masters or guardians, and being of sufficient ability therefor in the judgment of the Selectmen of the town in which he shall dwell, shall equip himself, and be constantly provided with a good fire arm, &c.'

By an Act passed April 4, 1786 (Laws 1786, c. 25), the New York Legislature directed: 'That every able-bodied Male Person, be- [307 U.S. 174, 181] ing a Citizen of this State, or of any of the United States, and residing in this State, (except such Persons as are herein after excepted) and who are of the Age of Sixteen, and under the Age of Forty-five Years, shall, by the Captain or commanding Officer of the Beat in which such Citizens shall reside, within four Months after the passing of this Act, be enrolled in the Company of such Beat. ... That every Citizen so enrolled and notified, shall, within three Months thereafter, provide himself, at his own Expense, with a good Musket or Firelock, a sufficient Bayonet and Belt, a Pouch with a Box therein to contain not less than Twenty-four Cartridges suited to the Bore of his Musket or Firelock, each Cartridge containing a proper Quantity of Powder and Ball, two spare Flints, a Blanket and Knapsack; ....'

The General Assembly of Virginia, October, 1785 (12 Hening's Statutes c. 1, p. 9 et seq.), declared: 'The defense and safety of the commonwealth depend upon having its citizens properly armed and taught the knowledge of military duty.'

It further provided for organization and control of the Militia and directed that 'All free male persons between the ages of eighteen and fifty years,' with certain exceptions, 'shall be inrolled or formed into companies.' 'There shall be a private muster of every company once in two months.'

Also that 'Every officer and soldier shall appear at his respective muster-field on the day appointed, by eleven o'clock in the forenoon, armed, equipped, and accoutred, as follows: ... every non-commissioned officer and private with a good, clean musket carrying an ounce ball, and three feet eight inches long in the barrel, with a good bayonet and iron ramrod well fitted thereto, a cartridge box properly made, to contain and secure twenty cartridges fitted to his musket, a good knapsack and canteen, and moreover, each non-commissioned officer and private shall have at every muster one pound of good [307 U.S. 174, 182] powder, and four pounds of lead, including twenty blind cartridges; and each serjeant shall have a pair of moulds fit to cast balls for their respective companies, to be purchased by the commanding officer out of the monies arising on delinquencies. Provided, That the militia of the counties westward of the Blue Ridge, and the counties below adjoining thereto, shall not be obliged to be armed with muskets, but may have good rifles with proper accoutrements, in lieu thereof. And every of the said officers, non-commissioned officers, and privates, shall constantly keep the aforesaid arms, accoutrements, and ammunition, ready to be produced whenever called for by his commanding officer. If any private shall make it appear to the satisfaction of the court hereafter to be appointed for trying delinquencies under this act that he is so poor that he cannot purchase the arms herein required, such court shall cause them to be purchased out of the money arising from delinquents.'

Most if not all of the States have adopted provisions touching the right to keep and bear arms. Differences in the language employed in these have naturally led to somewhat variant conclusions concerning the scope of the right guaranteed. But none of them seem to afford any material support for the challenged ruling of the court below.

In the margin some of the more important opinions and comments by writers are cited. 3 [307 U.S. 174, 183] We are unable to accept the conclusion of the court below and the challenged judgment must be reversed. The cause will be remanded for further proceedings.

Reversed and remanded.
 
For those who want to know the importance of the above, it means that NFA 34 and the Assault Weapons Bans are clearly unconstitutional, but, you have no right to "non-military" type weapons.

Most revolvers and semi-auto handguns have functional military applications, so they qualify for protectionn.
 
Nickle said:
For those who want to know the importance of the above, it means that NFA 34 and the Assault Weapons Bans are clearly unconstitutional, but, you have no right to "non-military" type weapons.

Most revolvers and semi-auto handguns have functional military applications, so they qualify for protectionn.

Oh, really? A twelve gauge shotgun has no military application? Anyone ever heard of a M97 "trench broom"? It's a Winchester 12 ga shotgun. (yeah, yeah... I know. It's a pump gun, not a double barrel. Still...)
 
dwarven1 said:
Nickle said:
For those who want to know the importance of the above, it means that NFA 34 and the Assault Weapons Bans are clearly unconstitutional, but, you have no right to "non-military" type weapons.

Most revolvers and semi-auto handguns have functional military applications, so they qualify for protectionn.

Oh, really? A twelve gauge shotgun has no military application? Anyone ever heard of a M97 "trench broom"? It's a Winchester 12 ga shotgun. (yeah, yeah... I know. It's a pump gun, not a double barrel. Still...)

That's a very common misinterpretation of US v. Miller. The court never said that a short barrel shotgun didn't have a military application; they only noted that there was no evidence or specific lower court ruling on that point before them, so they remanded the case to the lower court to address the point. If Miller hadn't been face down in a ditch somewhere (and if the feds hadn't cut a deal with Layton for time served) the district court would almost certainly have concluded that the shotgun had legitimate military uses and was thus protected by the 2nd Amendment.

OTOH, all those stack-barrel trap guns and precission target pistols might not pass muster. [roll]

Ken
 
Yup, the lawyer representing the US Government lied through his teeth and said the military didn't use shotguns.

The point of the whole thing is that IF Miller had a BAR or 1919A4 Machine Gun, he would have been acquitted of the crime, and the US would've clearly lost the appeal.

Also, bear in mind that the appeal outcome clearly indicates that the 1994 AWB is clearly unconstitutional (and was when enacted). The Import Ban is legit, since the President has the authority to restrict imports, and by adding enough US made parts, the guns are legal.

Also Ross, the 97 Winchester and M12 Winchester Trench Guns had legal barrels.
 
No, that's my point. The government lawyer never argued that a short barrel shotgun didn't have a military application; he arguesd that the 2nd Amendment only applied to members of the militia. The court pretty much demolished that argument. Instead they focused on the question that neither the government or the (non-existent) advocates for Miller had addressed. They did not rule that it didn't have a military application. They simply, and correctly, noted that this was an important question of fact rather than law that neither side had addressed. Because of this, they sent the case back to the District Court to hear arguments on this issue.

Ken
 
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