Gregg Ellifritz on the perils of open carry

I'm all for open carry. When I am in my house my gun is usually visible. When I go out I cover it up. I am all for open carry. If someone wants to do it then go for it. For me when I am out I prefer concealed. I don't like giving away my element of surprise. And it can make you a target. I read in a thread on here some time ago a guy out in the midwest was open carrying. One guy waited in a ally and the other followed close behind and then they ambushed him and took the gun.

So for me I'd rather keep it concealed when out and about.
 
Because if you are in a self defense situation, you are the one who has already been surprised.
True You may be surprised to find yourself in a self-defense situation. Doesn’t mean you can’t hit first. Especially if your adversary doesn’t know you’re armed And lets his guard down. As has been seen in hundreds of videos. I don’t care how anyone chooses to carry their weapon. But for me I prefer CC
 
Where open carry is permitted, I consider it to be a personal choice. It would not be my choice, but I understand that others may feel differently.

However, when someone speaks in favor of open carry, I usually ask these questions: "What do you think about the retention level ratings for duty holsters? What is the retention for your open carry holster, and how did you choose that?"

When I ask these questions, I get a lot of blank stares, and I usually have to give a brief explanation about retention levels. Occasionally, this discussion even has the desired effect of causing people to do some research before open carrying.

Note that I do not believe that everyone who open carries needs a retention holster. In some circumstances, I think it is fine to carry a Single Action .45 in a traditional western holster. But anyone who open carries should be have clear and specific answers about why they chose their carry method and their holster.
 
I carry to suit the weather. Ironically, with layers to deal with, that often means I carry the pocket .380 in Winter, because it's easier to access. Same for OCing the full size 1911 (8+1 +10 +10) when it's single-layer season.

If they shoot me first, you're welcome. Hopefully you're using my distraction to return fire, or can at least secure my gun as a backup to your own.

Having worked with felons for over 22 years, I give very little weight to this idea that they'll spot someone OCing and target them first. Armed robbers, mass shooters, etc., have tunnel vision. I've seen security footage of an armed robber walking up to the counter at a convenience store, pointing his gun, and demanding cash -- and actually pushed aside a cop in uniform who was standing there drinking coffee and chatting with the clerk.

I've read multiple tales of bank robbers walking in totally oblivious to uniformed armed guards or cops, because they were focused on the money.

I'm still waiting for those horror stories of OCers being gunned down in all the states where it's legal, or being targeted by those who would steal their guns. No, the one or two anecdotes repeated over and over don't make for sufficient data.

Please consider this: even if you're carrying with deep concealment, you should be every bit as situationally aware as you would be while OCing.
 
Where open carry is permitted, I consider it to be a personal choice. It would not be my choice, but I understand that others may feel differently.

However, when someone speaks in favor of open carry, I usually ask these questions: "What do you think about the retention level ratings for duty holsters? What is the retention for your open carry holster, and how did you choose that?"

When I ask these questions, I get a lot of blank stares, and I usually have to give a brief explanation about retention levels. Occasionally, this discussion even has the desired effect of causing people to do some research before open carrying.

Note that I do not believe that everyone who open carries needs a retention holster. In some circumstances, I think it is fine to carry a Single Action .45 in a traditional western holster. But anyone who open carries should be have clear and specific answers about why they chose their carry method and their holster.

I open carry in a Galco Yaqui slide holster. It retains my 1911 on my hip, I chose it because I can draw faster than any other setup, concealed or open. If you approached me and asked these questions I would walk away from you immediately, I know an anti when I see one.
 
I open carry in a Galco Yaqui slide holster. It retains my 1911 on my hip, I chose it because I can draw faster than any other setup, concealed or open. If you approached me and asked these questions I would walk away from you immediately, I know an anti when I see one.

I'm a Range Safety Officer for my club. Part of the job is helping beginners get comfortable with basic safety practices. And when they find out I can answer questions, they ask me about all sorts of subjects. Open carry comes up occasionally, and I tell people to do some research before jumping in.

Not sure what I wrote that came out wrong, but glad to know you have equipment that is safe and effective for your needs.
 
CCW is less comfortable than OC. As it has been said, CCW is supposed to be comforting, not comfortable. That said, OWB with cover garments works for me in NH. I’ve *never* seen anyone printing or exposing a CCW on the streets. I’m not looking but might notice if I saw it. Most would never notice printing and most would do a double-take for a momentary CCW exposure, blink, and move on. OC - pretty obvious. In SoNH, below Concord, it’s relatively rare. When I see OC I do a double-take and move on.

Alomost 20yr ago, when I was new to CCW, I had a little 38acp I carried IWB. I sent for a holster and the designer sent it with a note that he’s trying a single belt clip rather than a double loop, and that I could try both attached to the holster and to let him know what I thought. I carried it 4 o’clock under a sports jacket. I bent over (squatted down) one day to pick up something, the holster levered and rotated the clip off my belt, and it slid down my pant leg and hit the floor by my foot. I deftly picked it up and pocketed it in front of two others who just blinked and carried on. At my job in MA. I discarded the belt clip.
 
Interesting article. Some of you will probably disagree with what he says; I think he's right.



Sounds great but it depends on future circumstances and whether I trust my fellow humans to do the right thing. From what I can tell so far it isn't the case and if somehow things get really really bad then all of this advice goes out the window. My worry is what happens on the day when the cops just aren't there anymore, will open carry or concealed carry even matter? Might as well go grocery shopping with my AR. I want to think that we just don't get that far but there appears to be a number of people out there shouting F*** it and going out drinking and partying it up like they're immune.
 
I'm a Range Safety Officer for my club. Part of the job is helping beginners get comfortable with basic safety practices. And when they find out I can answer questions, they ask me about all sorts of subjects. Open carry comes up occasionally, and I tell people to do some research before jumping in.

Not sure what I wrote that came out wrong, but glad to know you have equipment that is safe and effective for your needs.

I totally understand this way better. I thought you were randomly walking up to people open carrying with your three question quiz. I was seriously confused how you thought this was a good idea.
 
Everyone says this but never has data to prove it, other than the .01% high apex predator criminals who shoot cops to take their guns, or just generically shoot threats, it's not really that proveable. I think in shitty areas it can attract unwanted attention but otherwise? Meh. The biggest practical problem with OC is a shitbird can use it with the kopsch to try to get them to suck for the falsehood that you pointed a gun at them. There's a myriad of situations where a mid level shitbird knowing you're packing could potentially make shit worse for you. Think road rage incidents, etc. Incidents involving people that you can't legally shoot. [laugh] This is less of a problem in areas where citizens carrying isn't frowned upon by the kopsch, etc.

yeah.. think of my douche coworker who ran to the boss offended about my Women on Target flyer on the board in the break room.. I can't imagine her reaction if she saw someone other than a cop openly carrying... she might need therapy.. oh, wait?.. :rolleyes:
 
Since I've been up here in Northern NH, I've seen quite a few guys open carriers. I'm not a fan of OC for myself, but I really like not caring too much about how concealed my concealment is. If I print, or my shirt blows back in wind and shows my firearm, so be it. Since I don't care about concealment as much, I find I'm carrying a much more shootable firearm (S&W Mod 15 or my 1911 instead of my Ruger LC9s) so all in all I'm in favor.

One weird thing though, about a quarter of the people I see OC'ing seem to take the idea of carrying a "more shootable" firearm to extremes. It almost seems like a statement of how big a pistol someone can carry on their hip, to the point that it looks uncomfortable to carry the darn thing. I almost wonder if this is "a thing" to carry an outrageous pistol instead of something more reasonable.
 
Since I've been up here in Northern NH, I've seen quite a few guys open carriers. I'm not a fan of OC for myself, but I really like not caring too much about how concealed my concealment is. If I print, or my shirt blows back in wind and shows my firearm, so be it. Since I don't care about concealment as much, I find I'm carrying a much more shootable firearm (S&W Mod 15 or my 1911 instead of my Ruger LC9s) so all in all I'm in favor.

One weird thing though, about a quarter of the people I see OC'ing seem to take the idea of carrying a "more shootable" firearm to extremes. It almost seems like a statement of how big a pistol someone can carry on their hip, to the point that it looks uncomfortable to carry the darn thing. I almost wonder if this is "a thing" to carry an outrageous pistol instead of something more reasonable.

Define "reasonable".

I'm perfectly comfortable carrying a full size 1911, or other similar size hammer fired gun, concealed or open. I'm not comfortable carrying a compact striker fired gun that doesn't fit my hand and is awkward to hold and shoot.
Sub compacts?......I wouldn't own one if it were given to me.
It's personal choice.
 
Define "reasonable".

I'm perfectly comfortable carrying a full size 1911, or other similar size hammer fired gun, concealed or open. I'm not comfortable carrying a compact striker fired gun that doesn't fit my hand and is awkward to hold and shoot.
Sub compacts?......I wouldn't own one if it were given to me.
It's personal choice.

Subcompacts are brutal. I'd rather have a Scandium J-frame 357 than a BG 9mm. For me, the best compact/shootability is the Glock19. Any smaller than that I feel like I'm making a big compromise.
 
Define "reasonable".

I'm perfectly comfortable carrying a full size 1911, or other similar size hammer fired gun, concealed or open. I'm not comfortable carrying a compact striker fired gun that doesn't fit my hand and is awkward to hold and shoot.
Sub compacts?......I wouldn't own one if it were given to me.
It's personal choice.

“Reasonable” to my mind is 6” or less. The “outrageous” pistols I’m talking about are the 8” S&Ws (686 I’m pretty sure) and what I’m pretty sure was a Heritage Buntline .22 (odd large grip and barrel to his knees) I’ve seen. These just don’t seem comfortable and not easy to draw (always carries on hip I’ve seen).

These aren’t full size guns. These are unreasonable to carry range toys. Maybe the big Smith in a chest rig would work, but stil seems more of a statement than anything else.

I don’t particular care what anyone carries. These way too just seemed odd and I wondered if they were more statement than anything else.
 
1. Overt intimidation (officer presence)
2. Ease of access when 1. doesn't work out so well.
3. Concealment is incompatible with all the other junk they carry on a duty belt (radio, cuffs, baton, OC, etc) and if "they" see this stuff they're going to assume a gun is there regardless, might as well just put the gun on it, too. Hell a visible badge is "i have a gun" even w/o a duty belt.
 
However, when someone speaks in favor of open carry, I usually ask these questions: "What do you think about the retention level ratings for duty holsters? What is the retention for your open carry holster, and how did you choose that?"
Is there any standard recognized retention level rating other than Safariland's marketing speak for its products?
 
If I worked on a farm or was in the woods a lot in a state that allowed it, sure.
Or out west on a horse ride or countryside outing.
Oh yeah, I would love to carry around a nice Ruger Vaquero in a sweet gun fighter belt and holster!
In these situations it would be for an animal threat only or a friendly target practice session.

In an area where there is more people around, no way.
To much publicity in open carry.
I want to blend, not stand out.
If I were to choose to use it, I want to be the only one that knows I have it.
And then I just want to slip away like nothing happened.
I don't want to be advertising my nice shiny new rosco to all the wrong people.
Nope, not gunna happen in any public areas.
 
As a general rule, I prefer what I’ve heard before as casual carry. Concealed, but with little effort put into concealing other than a cover garment appropriate for conditions. That said, I almost never switch from the G17 in a Safariland rig to a CC holster when running errands on my way to/home from work driving the cash car.
 
OC is not for me. But I'm glad people do it and we need more of it(maybe not in MA yet.) To win you have to win the culture war. When was the last time anyone saw a truck window gun rack in the Northeast? Right cause we are losing the gun culture war. TV is stupid but every show on primetime 30 years ago had guns, boats, and helicopters. What is there now, sitcoms based on sodomite characters. OC is a culture win and we need it to be more common. And yes even in free(r) states folks will get jammed up for OCing, but bless them for standing up for gun culture they are braver than me.
 
Since I've been up here in Northern NH, I've seen quite a few guys open carriers. I'm not a fan of OC for myself, but I really like not caring too much about how concealed my concealment is. If I print, or my shirt blows back in wind and shows my firearm, so be it. Since I don't care about concealment as much, I find I'm carrying a much more shootable firearm (S&W Mod 15 or my 1911 instead of my Ruger LC9s) so all in all I'm in favor.

One weird thing though, about a quarter of the people I see OC'ing seem to take the idea of carrying a "more shootable" firearm to extremes. It almost seems like a statement of how big a pistol someone can carry on their hip, to the point that it looks uncomfortable to carry the darn thing. I almost wonder if this is "a thing" to carry an outrageous pistol instead of something more reasonable.
I don't recall if you're more "far north" than I am, but in my daily job (grocery store), I regularly see people carrying anything from 2" revolvers to 1911s. Nothing massive at all, although many are carried with inadequate belts, and holsters that I personally consider substandard. (My standard: it should fit the specific gun, not just be a generic nylon pouch. And you should have a belt that supports the weight of the gun.)

I'm not hung up on retention levels. Snatching doesn't happen to open carriers any more than it happens to police officers, given the same circumstances. By that, I mean that when police officers have their guns snatched, they were already in full rodeo mode while trying to take someone into custody. That's not a factor for non-police carriers.
 
When you open carry in MA, EVERY person you meet gets to decide if you lose your LTC and fund a trial - including Ne'er-do-wells that are the reason for going armed.

I spoke with one indivdual who merely showed that he had a gun when threatened with assault by an individual with a long rap sheet for assault, and charges pending. He lost his LTC and his appeal because the individual claimed "he felt threatened". His attorney was not cognizant as to Commonwealth v. Adjutant, so he told his client he could not admit the person's past record to paint a picture of justification. The only reason he did not go to trial for assault is that the person who threatened to beat him up took the 5th so his testimony could not be used against him in his upcoming assault trial.
I believe in carrying pepper spray for many reasons. I wonder what would have happened if he sprayed the scum bag in that situation.
 
Is there any standard recognized retention level rating other than Safariland's marketing speak for its products?

If I recall.... the levels 1,2, and 3 actually have to do with more technical data (in terms of shear strength of the mounts) then just the gadgets that hold gun in. I think Bill something of other from Safariland explained it in a video.
 
Interesting article. Some of you will probably disagree with what he says; I think he's right.

My biggest concern with open carry is getting shot by cops.
 
Is there any standard recognized retention level rating other than Safariland's marketing speak for its products?

Generally, the number of retention devices is how they determine the rating. Level 1 holsters normally have a strap that goes around the back of the firearm to hold it in place. Now, some have a trigger guard lock. My current holster has a hood and a lock on the trigger guard (I guess) that has to be released to draw the pistol. I've had it so long, I don't remember if it's Level 2, or if they claim Level 3 through some other mechanism. I remember some wonky holsters that required a special handshake and you had to stand on one leg to draw.

People have gotten kinda retarded over it though. Someone told me my Safariland holster wasn't 'good enough' because it was possible to rip it off the attachment 'paddle' thing. Yes, if someone grabs the plastic holster with both hands and can wrench on it without me doing anything, they can remove the entire firearm from my hip.
 
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