Gouging

[Dirigoboy]

Generally, I'm a pretty passive individual. I have realized 99% of what I feel is my home defense package for the 21st century. The last piece I'm interested in is the DPMS AP-4. I check the prices frequently. In the intrim, I'm putting some other stuff I own up for sale to subsidize my interests.

Like many, I can't help but notice the gouging that is going on, based on fear and waiting periods, and it astounds me that a company who's by-line includes striving to give the buyer the best bang for the buck, instead hoses the buyer waaaay over and above that which should be construed as reasonable profit. I understand reasonable, but I took one such gun site to task this afternoon.

They're charging $366 dolllars over and above for the particular model that I'm interested in from DPMS. And today, I got pissed, and I called them on it. Consider it a gun "tea party." It ain't right, and gun dealers need to be challenged on their greed dammit.........'Nuff said. I'm ticked, and I'm tired of those capitilizing on fear.

 

[Beansie_Time]

Capitalism, my man. They cearly haven't had trouble selling them at that price so good luck to them while they can do it. You can choose not to buy if the price doesn't agree with you.

 

[Franco]

no matter where you look ..online auctions, private sale or at a local shop..i've seen gouging going on everywhere..and just shake my head..and tell myself thank god i bought all my EBRs awhile ago when the prices were normal..

AKs, ar-15s & ar-10s right now are selling for $400-500 bucks more then they were 1 year ago. simply because people will still buy them and supply is not there..and dealers can get away with it. so either you reach in deep or no EBR for you.

i saw a DPMS lr-308 at Four Seasons for $1100 ,..that same exact rifle on gunbroker, people are starting the auction at $1800!!

 

[Dirigoboy]

Let me just say that it's all duly noted. I'll realize my purchase, but in the meantime....I'm patiently looking

 

[News Shooter]

I know it's frustrating, but it is the free market. Supply and demand will eventually merge. It's only gouging if you allow yourself to be gouged

 

[drgrant]

FWIW you can't always blame the dealer, either. Sometimes the prices are getting jacked up further up the chain.

There's also a supply/demand problem with a lot of this stuff now. Supply is down and demand is high, and that means higher prices.

If you don't like the shitty prices the best way to fight them is to not pay them, and wait it out. It could be months, or a year... IMO this
demand isn't sustainable. The manufacturers don't think so either, otherwise they'd be hiring tons of extra people and I just don't see that
happening.

-Mike

 

[FiremanBob]

It's the free market, and price behavior is a natural force, like gravity. There's no point investing emotional resources in resenting it. (Nor is there any point in politicians trying to repeal it.)

When gas hit $4/gallon last summer, people responded by driving less, driving more slowly, and finding their own many different ways of using less until the price came down. There are signs that a similar dynamic is already happening in the EBR market, at least according to two local dealers I talked with this week. As we all know too well, ammo prices are still in the frenzied phase.

This is not an attempt to predict the future. If the statists enact a gun ban you can expect prices to spike even higher, as many of us will buy before it closes off the "white market". You can bet that the ensuing black market will be driven entirely by supply and demand, with MSRP becoming completely irrelevant. OTOH, if they don't, or the Supreme Court prevents them and restores the 2A (from my keyboard to God's ears), the market could normalize and prices come down. We take our choice and pay our money.

 

[ztargetshooter]

On my way home from work tonight I stopped at a gun shop and paid $16.75 for a 50 round box of 9mm ammo made in the czech republic. Two weeks ago the same box was under $12.00 and I was paying $12.75 for Winchester 50 round boxes at the same shop.

 

[alseneet]

Can you order it straight from DPMS and have it sent to an FFL? Is DPMS gouging or your dealer?

 

[Dirigoboy]

Let's just say that I surf to stay current on the prices, from Gun Broker, to whoever else pops up when I type in the basic criteria on Google.
I'm not desperate for this rifle, but I intend on owning one. I understand the market variables, the fear, and the waiting periods in which, gun dealers seem to feel they are justified in raising prices. There is a normal variable, and then there are those based purely on greed, and I know that most of you will nod in agreement as to what I'm speaking of.

My concern, which is not based on fear, is the unrelenting attack by our current Administration on justifying control which, while muted right now, will become a crescendo over the ensuing months until they feel it is time to first start banning semi-auto's. After that, expect to have to bring in your firearms to be "registered", and list as well your ammo stockpiles.

I'm not a fear monger, I have faith in the 2nd Amendment and those who would uphold it, but there are those in Washington much more cleaver than myself who will probably find a way to circumvent the system. It is this element that we guard ourselves against IMO. I don't fear, I don't buy the hype or take part with those who feel a need to stockpile, but I watch....and I note. I'm not stupid.

I'll continue to watch and wait, and when the time is right, I'll move. I suppose this thread is based more about my personal disgust for the ugly side of capitalism and those who would take advantage.....not that, that's new.

 

[Jose]

There is a normal variable, and then there are those based purely on greed, and I know that most of you will nod in agreement as to what I'm speaking of.

No, I will not nod in agreement.

Greed is what makes capitalism and America work. The price is what it is. Pay it or do without. As long as the market isn't being manipulated by the sellers (and it isn't), there is NO gouging.

 

[Jose]

I suppose this thread is based more about my personal disgust for the ugly side of capitalism and those who would take advantage.....

Guess what, capitalism was not created to save money for consumers. There is no ugly side to capitalism. There is only one side.

 

[theGringo]

No, I will not nod in agreement.

Greed is what makes capitalism and America work. The price is what it is. Pay it or do without. As long as the market isn't being manipulated by the sellers (and it isn't), there is NO gouging.

I prefer to think of it as rational self-interest. If the price is too high, goods will remain on the shelves and prices will adjust.

 

[Jose]

I prefer to think of it as rational self-interest. If the price is too high, goods will remain on the shelves and prices will adjust.

Correct. Greed is leveled by demand. What amuses me is those who whine about the price of goods being beyond their reach.

Live below your means and that problem tends to occur much less frequently.

 

[FiremanBob]

The word "capitalism" was coined by Karl Marx as a pejorative term for the free market. It implies that those with "capital", i.e., money, rule. However, we have seen repeatedly that money isn't the source of power, ideas and the ability to make them into reality are. None of Henry Ford, Hewlett and Packard, Steve Jobs, and Jack Welch started out wealthy and having money was not the secret of their success.

To use that word is to gratuitously cede an advantage to the statists and socialists. I avoid it whenever possible in favor of 'free market' or "economic freedom".

There's nothing morally wrong with greed as long as you have the free choice to reject the deal you perceive as greedy. There's a lot wrong if the greedy person uses or threatens violence against you to get what they want. That's the essential difference.

 

[Dirigoboy]

Greed is what makes capitalism and America work. The price is what it is. Pay it or do without. As long as the market isn't being manipulated by the sellers (and it isn't), there is NO gouging.

Reasonable profit is what makes America spin bud. When they asked J. Paul Getty when he thought enough was enough his answer was, "more." Greed is protected by influence and those who control product AND the surrounding environment. Were I to whine about anything here, it would be directed at your arrogance at assuming that you hold the answer key in your pants pocket. I don't care that you render an opinon, but don't pretend to lecture me or anyone else on what they can afford or what's an acceptable standard. In my estimation, better than $350 dollars above market value smacks of greed, regardless, considering the object in question. That's the thrust here.

 

[theGringo]

In my estimation, better than $350 dollars above market value smacks of greed, regardless, considering the object in question.

I'm not taking sides here, Dboy, but if the market price was $350 below the price you saw advertised, then you should be able to find the item at the lower price. If you can, then you should do so at once.

These prices I'm seeing irk me, too. What keeps them high is the fact that people are paying.

 

[Dirigoboy]

Understood bud.....but I don't see that happening do you? Like I said, I patiently watch and wait. This rifle is just an addendum to the overall quest. I don't need it, I desire it, and I know the difference. I can wait.

 

[theGringo]

Understood bud.....but I don't see that happening do you? Like I said, I patiently watch and wait. This rifle is just an addendum to the overall quest. I don't need it, I desire it, and I know the difference. I can wait.

I don't know if the current situation will cool down. I doubt it will for some time, given the current regime in Washington. People are staying scared, and for good reason.

I kick myself in the head for having stood on the sidelines for so long, when I could have at least been on the gun-or-two-a-year plan. Bargains now are hard, or impossible, to find. Sometimes, you have to accept that you're going to pay more than you think is reasonable, or simply do without something that you very much want.

Me, I wanted a $300 SAR-1. I waited too long and got a $500 SAR-1. Now, just a few months, I see them for $800 and up. And ammo? Forget it.

Yeah, I'm irritated too.

 

[jhrosier]

The alternative to a market driven economy is a government regulated economy.
Which would you rather?
The current administration would dearly love to control the economy and are making every attempt to seize power wherever they can.
Would it suit you to have them set the retail prices on new EBRs?
Howsabout they should adjust your wages? You are clearly getting to much salary if you can afford luxuries like expensive new assault rifles.

Jack

 

[RI_John]

Watch what happens to the price of plywood on the Gulf Coast when a hurricane is on the way- same thing. There is no "reasonable" profit. Profit is profit. Pay it or don't. Personally, I hope the gun/ammo bubble bursts worse than tech stock bubble did and all the hoarders who are buying up ammo to resell it at crazy prices get stuck worse than the house flippers did. But, I don't begrudge them their greed, even if it hurts me and my pocketbook. Consider the alternative(s).

 

[Supermoto]

Understood bud.....but I don't see that happening do you? Like I said, I patiently watch and wait. This rifle is just an addendum to the overall quest. I don't need it, I desire it, and I know the difference. I can wait.

You need to protect yourself from the market rise.
Buy 10 ARs, sell 9 when the price goes up, make a profit.... wait nope that won't work, that might be considered capitalism.

 

[EddieCoyle]

Cool! Another gouging thread!

 

[Dirigoboy]

I think more than a few of us are looking over our shoulders. I had just scrimped and saved and bought the .45 I wanted, but the AP4 will wait until I've sold off some other items which, while I don't necessarily want to sell, are rather paramount to my realizing that end.

I do my best to stay current on the issues through blogs and the like in an attempt to understand and weigh the gravity of the gun issues that affect America. As a bystander, watching that which imbeds itself within the fabric binding our nation together, I cannot look without a certain amount of angst as to what is being proposed and being brought up for review before Congress. With libs controlling both the House and Senate, laws affecting all of us are being passed with an altricity not seen before and one of those is our right to bear arms.

I'm not an alarmist by any means, but right now I'm pretty concerned. So yeah, I don't need this rifle, but I would really like to buy it before something stupid happens in Washington.
In the meantime, I've become a fan of tea parties.

 

[Mikey]

I know it's frustrating, but it is the free market. Supply and demand will eventually merge. It's only gouging if you allow yourself to be gouged

+1 and it's not like it is meds or food, we can choose an alternative or just be patient. But yeah it sucks.

 

[Dirigoboy]

Cool! Another gouging thread!

Well, Cool "Eddie". Tell you what, since you're in the 7,000 plus club why don't you amuse the masses tonight by listing all the other threads on gouging. I'm bored enough to read....

 

[EddieCoyle]

Well, Cool "Eddie". Tell you what, since you're in the 7,000 plus club why don't you amuse the masses tonight by listing all the other threads on gouging. I'm bored enough to read....

But apparently not motivated enough to search.

 

[Shooters-Hooksett]

Good post Dirigoboy

1. Is there gouging going on? You bet!
2. I see it everyday- dealing with my distributors.
3. Distributors, Importers & Dealers are all checking the internet daily to see how much they can get based on the auction sites. And they adjust prices accordingly. The only ones I've seen that have not done this on the Manufacturer level is Bushmaster, Glock, Sig, & Colt.

Bushmaster & Colt prices are driven by the Distributors & Dealers. Some of these Distributors raise prices knowing that some greedy dealers are making record profits on the "supply & demand" aspect. The worse one I've seen is Lew Horton in Mass. For example: They are selling WASR-10's to dealers at retail prices - you end up getting shafted hard by a dealer that buys from them. The other day - a Lew Horton Salesman offered me Colt 6920's for 25.00 more than my retail of 1,550.00 & WASR-10's for $50.00 over my retail!! I actually felt bad for him "after my laughter stopped" - and he said that he gets abused over the phone all day long - guy needs a job,and can't do squat about his employers gouging.

*Note* Ammunition Mfg's & Importers are worse,there are fewer of them than firearms mfg's - and are riding the wave for all it's worth!

PS: Stop buying from these people if they are gouging, and one of two things will happen.
#1. They will fold
#2. They will drop prices
Look what happened with gasoline when people started cutting back!

So I guess the best thing to do is to wait this out - I'm sure when the supply gets back up to speed - prices will have to come down. One thing that you should never forget is: Remember the ones that are screwing you now - when they're begging for your business down the road...my frustrated .02 worth as a dealer.... I wish you Mass folks didn't have your own ban - because I just got a boatload of new evil guns in.
Jim

 

[Dirigoboy]

But apparently not motivated enough to search.

Hey Ed, have another beer and just understand that I'm not motivated enough to continue any more dialogue with you. Let me suggest that you find another thread to share your peculiar brand of insight with tonight?

 

[theGringo]

This will not end well.