Glock range trials

[Hawgleg44]

I spent some time this week at the range with some Glock samples for trials for the PD. All it did for me was to remind me why I USED to own four of them.

We shot the .40, .45acp and .45 GAP today. The M22 was NIB. I had two mags run though with no failures to feed, but most of them malfunctioned with a FTF at least once. One mag FTF'd seven times out of a 15 round mag.

On to the 21. Definately my favorite, or as much of a favorite as a Glock can be to me. But, practically speaking, many of the smaller men and women on the department would have a problem with the size of the grip. It also had the least felt recoil out of the bunch today.

On to the .45 GAP. With the supplied Speer Lawman 185gr loadings, it was just as snappy in terms of recoil as the .40. And, it was another that had constant failures. The reps excuse for that one was that it had been fired 1000 times since it's last cleaning. Hell, I've fired a S&W Sigma more than that between cleanings and it never failed.

Both of us who shot the most had constant failures. But, I have to admit, accuracy wise, there is nothing to complain about. Although, with that awkward grip angle, it must be a conscious, instead of natural, movement to get the sights aligned.

If the dept mandates the Glock as a duty weapon, I'll switch departments. Although Sig and Beretta were asked for quotes, Glock was simply the cheapest, so that's who got the meeting. We're waiting until later this summer to see the new offering from S&W.

I had 4 Glocks before, and none of them were ever unreliable. I had a few malfs. with my G19, but never with the G17, 22 or 23. These were just horrible, and NIB, too, other than the GAP.

Later on that night, I grabbed the M21 and went to the range again with a friend of mine. I brought along my Sig P220 and S&W 457. I shot Federal military ball ammo.

We shot only a few boxes out of the Glock with 7 light primer strikes. We fired the same ammo out of the P220 and 457 with no issues at all.

Talk about Glock "Perfection" [roll]

 

[FPrice]

Interesting commentary on Glock pistols. I have owned a number of Glocks, and while I probably don't have nearly as many rounds through mine as you probably have through yours, I don't think I have ever had a FTF or FTE problem with G19s or G21s. But I am very anal about cleaning my pistols after just about every range session.

Your comment on the size of the G21 is right on. I don't find a problem with it with my medium size hands but I would think that someone with small hands could find it difficult to hold properly.

I have owned two G23s and will never again own a .40 Glock. I consider it too much of a round for that size (and possibly composition) frame. I could shoot them but it was not much fun. Better than a day of paperwork to be sure, but not as much fun as the 9mm or .45ACP.

I had heard that one PD around here was looking at Glocks but I thought they had already decided the issue.

 

[C-pher]

From what I was told. Our PD used to carry Glocks. Then the Para Rep came out and they did a run through.

Now, I'm a Para whore. I love them, I have too many of them. But that's a different story.

Anyway, the guy I know that that's on our Local Department. He said that the Para guy came out with a bunch of buckets.

He fired off two or three clips and then threw it into a bucket of water. Fired off two more clips and threw it into a bucket of mud, fired off two more clips, threw it into the bucket of sand and fired off two more clips. All this without cleaning it off between buckets, and with no misfires.

After that, all of our PD carries the Para Ordnance P14.45s as their duty pistol. He did say that it's not as light as the Glocks, but he said that he would rather have the reliability over the weight.

I've never fired a Glock, so I can't comment on them. The closest thing I have is the S&W 99 in .45. That thing hasn't misfired or FTF or FTE in over 1000 rounds that I've put though it...

 

[Lynne]

I love them, I have too many of them.

NONSENSE!! You can NEVER have enough.



[qoute="C-pher"] He fired off two or three clips and then threw it into a bucket of water. Fired off two more clips and threw it into a bucket of mud, fired off two more clips, threw it into the bucket of sand and fired off two more clips. All this without cleaning it off between buckets, and with no misfires. [/quote]

I know this will sound like I'm nit picking, but they're magazines, not "clips". "Clips" are from TV and the movies - clips are used in rifles to hold the ammo, magazines feed the ammo in semi auto's. Once an instructor, always an instructor.

 

[Hawgleg44]

As nice of a guy the Glock rep was, I wasn't impressed with the salesmanship. He simply brought a case full of Glocks and some Speer Lawman FMJ ammo. He did bring along one of them in .357 Sig, but he didn't bring any ammo for it.

He didn't even bring any ear protection for himself. He just handed us the Glocks after he oiled them and gave us some ammo and let us shoot. He didn't even offer any explanation or express any interest when the G22 was jamming constantly.

I would like to see the dept go with a new pistol, but I don't really see that happening. The Town just doesn't have the money to spend, so basically, the meeting was a waste of time, except for the free shooting.

I brought along my friend's G19 that shed a piece of its plastic frame. A large piece broke off right in front of the slide rail at the left rear. I asked him about it, and he told me to take a razor blade and cut it off since it doesn't do anything. I told him I'm just not used to pieces breaking off of frames when you shoot them. He said that I must not be that experienced with plastic framed guns. Well, I am, and I explained that to him. I don't care if that piece of the frame doesn't do anything, but it sure would suck if it broke off during a real confrontation and jammed between the frame and slide, making the pistol inoperative. Yet another example of Glock "Perfection".

I know it sounds like I'm totally anti-Glock. Well, I really don't like them now, but I used to carry them all the time. I told the others at the meeting that I don't care what we carry, as long as it's reliable. It could be a S&W, Sig, Ruger, Beretta, anything, as long as I can stake my life on it. One of the officers at the range actually asked for a more detailed quote and was saying how great the Glocks were! We don't have any functioning problems with the current issued pistols, unless they are not cleaned and oiled occasionally. But, since these said "Glock" on the side, he thought they were the best gun out there, even though the jammed constantly. And they say I'm too biased in favor of S&W's!

Another officer started saying that we didn't need quotes with night sights, since they are a gimic and no officer needs them. He said that he would rather use the tac light. Yes, a light is great, but unless you will settle for a dual retention duty holster, you can't keep your light attached. His response was that nobody should be allowed to use a triple retention holster since you can't get your pistol out of them without fighting with it. Well, something about training, practice, and muscle memory comes to mind for me. But, he's the one who goes to every class out there and has lots of pieces of paper with is name on it, so he knows everything. He also gave me crap about using a Fobus holster at the range because they do not retain the pistol as securely as needed. Then, he told me he prefers not to use a holster at all, even on narcotics raids, because it's faster. I stopped listening to him, unless I needed a laugh.

 

[dwarven1]

Hawgleg, I'm just sitting here with my mouth hanging open after reading your post.

As far as the Glocks go, the glock-o-philes that I know would have me believe that that they're incapable of error (my lawyer claims that since he owns a Glock, not a Para, he's unable to perform clearing drills since his Glock can't malfunction). Personally, I just think that they feel and look cheap. the only time I ever shot one it handled nicely and pointed great. ('course, that was over 10 years ago, so they may have been made better then). My biggest problem with them is that I just do NOT like that trigger! I like my semi's with a safety, and I don't care what you call that trigger, it's just ain't the same.

If your dept is looking for a double action semi, I tend to side with Massad Ayoob and favor the Ruger P90 in .45. Ugliest gun I've ever seen, but utterly reliable - mine simply won't malfunction. It's very inexpensive (if they're still available new - I'm not sure if they are or not), they come DAO or with a decocker, and for me, at least, it points like it was made for my hands... and I have short fingers, so I suspect that it will feel good in a wide range of hand sizes.

as for the politics of getting new guns in your town... are you allowed to carry an alternate? I certainly wouldn't want to be out on the street with something I didn't trust.

Ross

 

[TonyD]

That was definately an interesting experience to say the least. It's also ironic that Glocks have been put through some the most rigorous turture test and have performed most execllent. When Glocks first hit the market I was very skeptical of a plastic gun. It took some time for me to see the light. That's correct, I like Glocks and if you knew what it takes for me to advocate a firearm you would know what that means.

I have a back ground in LE and HRT. The one rationale I used was I had to trust that sidearm with my life. I've had a G19 for a little over ten years now. I can't tell you how many rounds have been through it, more than some, less than others I'm sure. With the exception of one box of reloads I put through it many years ago I've never had a failure to feed, fire, or eject.

S&W (semi's) and Ruger, on the other hand, is two firearms I'll never own. They originated the term jammo-matic. I hear they have improved over the years but I'll never own them to find out. I believe Glock made the most simplistic, reliable, and accurate 9mm ever manufactured. The trigger is one of the things I like best. It is smooth and constant on every pull. I'm not a fan of DA with two diifferent weights and lengths of pull (I also own HK USP).

I will concede the fact that I can see problems in larger calibers and smaller frames. This is simply a guess as I have very limited experience with larger caliber Glocks. I did put a friends new .45 compact (not sure of the model number) through the paces about a month ago. Slow fire, rapid fire, double and triple taps, strong side / weak side, etc, and nary a hiccup. However, that's only one gun and just a couple hundred rounds.

 

[Hawgleg44]

I was very surprised at the experience, too. I expected them to work and shoot as well as any "combat" style handgun would. I never expected them to all have problems, especially NIB.

I'm kind of on the other side when it comes to handguns. I shot mostly S&W revolvers from the time I was a very young child with my father up through my 20's. I really had no interest at all in auto's at that time.

Since then, I've owned a Beretta 92FS, Glock 19, 17, 22 and 23, Sig P229 DAO .40, SA V10/45 SS ported compact, SW1911, a few Colt 1911's, and a pile of S&W autos. Those are some of the ones I've parted with through the years, although I know there must be more.

Now, I shoot all S&W auto's for my centerfire shooting, except for my one departure, an old Sig P220 W. German made gun. Right now, I have 5 S&W 9mm's, 2-40's and two .45acp's. None have ever given me a single problem, and I shoot only cast bullet reloads, unless I get the ammo for free .

I can't wait to see Smith's new offering this August. They are releasing a new pistol which is intended to directly compete with the Glocks. From what I've heard about it from my friends there, I'll definately end up owning one.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Tony, next time you're up here and it isn't monsoon season [lol] you'll have to try my S&W 1911 (somewhat modified).

I didn't like S&W either until the 1911:

- Shot the PD's Model 10s, asked chief for authorization to buy and carry my own Colts (Trooper Mk III and Det Special, both in nickel).

- Bought a S&W 39, shot it 3 times (prior to recently when trying out the Wolf ammo . . . won't feed in the 39, full story another day). Two practice sessions and one police qual (score was 95/100). Didn't like the gun and away it went in the safe for 20+ years.

- Bought a S&W 40V Sigma new at a S&W LE event. Mag retention spring broke first time after I shot 2 mags . . . dropped mag every time I picked gun up off the bench. S&W replaced about 5 parts for cost of shipping. Sold gun as "junk" in my book. BTW, Chief Glidden tried them out for Lee PD and got rid of them shortly afterwords as "junk"! Lynne Dube on the other hand had a good experience and loved hers (now Ed's).

- Tried Jim Conway's S&W 1911 (heavily customized) and it was sweet! Snapped one up as a steal at Four Seasons and I love it!

 

[C-pher]

Sorry Lynne. I'll try to pay more attention to what I'm typing. I really do know that, Magizine vs. Clip.

I don't know if the S&W 99's were supposed to compete with the Glocks. But like I said, I have shot god knows how many rounds through mine, it's in .45 and I haven't had a problem.

My buddy had a Colt Mark IV and his jammed on some reloads that he had. I put them though my 99 and it didn't have a problem.

I have to agree with Hawgleg44 though, I think that a revolver is one of the best carry guns to have. There's not too much that can go wrong with a revolver. Just have to stick with 5 or 6 rounds.

 

[dwarven1]

S&W (semi's) and Ruger, on the other hand, is two firearms I'll never own. They originated the term jammo-matic.

I can't argue with you on the S&W's... I love their revolvers, but won't own a S&W auto. Except maybe a 1911... how can you screw up John Browning's design? (unless you're AMT, that is).

As for the Ruger... If you're up here again some time, I'll happily let you put as much ammo through the P90 as you like. Plain and simple, it will eat anything I put through it. The only thing that I ever saw it choke on was a box of MagTech ammo that someone had at one of the IDPA shoots last year. This guy couldn't figure out why his Kimber was choking on factory ammo, so we tried some of it in my Ruger and someone else's gun... this stuff wouldn't feed in ANYTHING. If I was told tonight that my life would depend on something in my closet tomorrow, I'd reach for the P90.

Ross

 

[Hawgleg44]

The Sigmas on at our department are 10+ year old SW40F's. I shot over 8000 rounds through mine, with mostly 180gr cast bullet reloads using Unique powder. I had one FTE with our issued 165gr Winchester SXT's diring qualification one time. I own or have owned 6 other Sigmas and have never had a failure of any kind. On the early 1st and 2nd generation guns without the equipment rail, the front of the dust cover sometimes cracks. No problem with the new ones, and that's what S&W replaces it with under warranty.

I've never had a S&W auto older than a 3rd generation, except for a few 645's. Absolutely none of them, from 2-6906's, 2-5906's, 910, 6946, 2-3913's, 3954, 3953, 2-645's, 4506, and I'm sure a few more I forgot, have ever had a malfunction. I know people talk down about them all the time, but the Sigmas I shoot are by far the most comfortable guns I've ever owned.

If someone will supply the factory ammo to do it with, I'll be happy to put one of my Sigmas thought twice the "torture test" that Glock did with their M17. With the "Enhanced" Series, they lowered the ejection port, switched to a stronger, round striker instead of the loose tolerance Glock style that keeps breaking for NYPD, added the loaded chamber indicator, put on an equipment rail, and made some cosmetic changes. It is now their top selling pistol, followed by all the 1911 models put together.

I got a slightly different story from Chief Glidden about the Sigmas when we talked about them at the Academy. He said that he did buy them for the department when they first came out, along with most other departments in W. Mass. But, Glock didn't like the business they were losing, so they offered any department who had Sigmas an even trade for any Glock model they wanted. He told me that the Sigmas were reliable, but he just couldn't pass up free Glocks.

I had an SW1911, but I traded it after only a few boxes of ammo. I never had a problem with a SA or Colt 1911, but I don't like the firing pin safety attached to the grip safety like it is. I have big hands and like a very high grip on anything I shoot, and I would sometimes not be able to fire since the grip safety was less than 1/16" from being fully depressed. I'll take a Colt Series 70 or even an 80 any day. My cousin has no problems with his, but my other friends experienced the same with theirs. They sold theirs to buy Colts, too.

 

[TonyD]

I just realized my post my most recent post in here from last week must be lost into cyber-oblivion.

Anyway - A guy here that shoots IDPA has a Smith 1911 from the custom shop. It's a "little" different than their standard production semi's.

Can't comment on the Sigma's, never had or shot one. Though, the enhancements you described sounds like what Glock did to their production.

IN my "post that never was" I related a personal story of my brand new revolver locking up during my first ever qual for LE years ago.

I also talked about me not liking a DA trigger pull and the function, reliabilty, accuracy and constant smooth trigger is what I like about the Glock.

I believe there could be problems in larger caliber on small frames.

Sorry, just didn't feel like retyping the whole thing.

 

[Jay G]

I'll put in my $0.02 for the Smith & Wesson SW99.

This is the collaborative effort with Walther - the SW99 is a fraternal twin to Walther's P99 series.

I've got the .40 S&W version, and only because the .45 ACP was only offered with an 8-round capacity. Of course, immediately after I buy the .40, Smith & Wesson revamps the line to offer the .45 ACP with a 10 round capacity, but that's just my bad luck...

I love, love, LOVE this gun. I've put around 1,500 rounds through it, 99% of that cheapo crap (Wolf, CCI Blazer, Winchester White Box, etc.). The ONLY "problem" I have with it, and it has nothing to do with the gun itself, is that the cheap Pro-Mag magazines don't always lock the slide back when empty. Other than that, the gun has fed, fired, and ejected every single bullet I've ever loaded into it (full disclosure: 99.9% have been FMJs, not hollowpoints. I've only put maybe 50 rounds of JHPs through it, but it has fed those reliably).

The gun is at least as accurate as I am; is a CINCH to break down and clean; and has proven to be EXTREMELY reliable. I cut my teeth on semi-autos on a WWI-military issue 1911, and the difference between the two as far as ease of use is like night and day. Don't get me wrong, I love the 1911, but it's a pain in the butt to clean... NOT the SW99...

And the price can't be beat: $400 for a barely used gun (I broke it in), $525(ish) for new.

I like this gun so much I'm planning on getting the compact 9mm as an additional carry gun and probably the .45 ACP down the road. Everyone I've talked to that owns one loves it.

(/end shameless plug).

NOW... My dad has one of the early model 39s. I can TOTALLY see why S&W semi-autos got a bad rap based on this gun. Oy!

 

[Hawgleg44]

Someone is talking to me now about a possible partial trade of a P99 in .40 towards my Bushmaster. I'm hoping it works out.

You really can't compare the M39 to the current offerings by S&W. If you try out a 3rd Generation or TSW Series auto, you will find them at least as reliable, if not more, than many offerings by other manufacturers. It's just like comparing the early 1st and 2nd generation Sigmas to the Enhanced Series. They are like totally different guns.

 

[Adam_MA]

Someone is talking to me now about a possible partial trade of a P99 in .40 towards my Bushmaster. I'm hoping it works out.

I hope this works out too. I picked up the P99 is .40 last month and the gun is smooth, easy to shoot, and very easy to clean. Now if I can only work on my shooting skills I am sure I will have a MUCH better time with this gun. I am very new to pistol shooting and I don't think I could have found a better fit.

Adam